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Dragonfly in Amber - Roger and Claire's interactions
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I'm also on my second re-read of DIA and I'm about as far in as you are! Funny coincidence :) As far as Roger goes, he does think that Claire's reactions and interest are odd, but he chalks it up to her hiding the fact that Frank wasn't Bree's biological father. Plus, I think he gets wrapped up in the research and his interest in Bree and doesn't spend as much time thinking about Claire's motive. As for Bree though, it does seem a bit strange that she wouldn't have pushed more to find out what was behind her mom's interest. At one point Bree reflects that she never really asked her mom why she (Claire) was so interested, but Claire changes the subject. If you think about Bree being 20 and recently losing her father, it isn't quite as surprising that she is more just along for the ride so to speak. I'm sure she was excited to travel and spend some quality time with her mom (and Roger), which doesn't leave much room for thought, or interest, in Claire's inquiry. I also don't think that Claire was completely forthcoming to Bree about why she wanted to visit Roger.
What is odd though is the face thing--you're right there. It is repeatedly brought up throughout the series that Claire's face shows every emotion going through her brain. The only think I can think of why that would be different at the time in question is that she is probably used to wearing a face for society. Deep down I'm sure she has been in pain over the loss of Jamie for the past 20 years and she got used to putting up a facade for the sake of Bree.
Those are my impressions off the top of my head :)
I have a question for you (since you're in the same spot as me). In the dream Claire has on page 70 (mass market paperback), who do you think the voice and the hand in the dream belong to? Jamie or Frank? I think Diana was a bit ambiguous there, possibly on purpose.
Okay, I answered my own question--found it on page 194. It's definitely Jamie :)
As far as Claire's face goes, remember Roger comments several times about noticing a fleeting look or reaction to something and then when he looks back her mask is back in place. He chalks it up to the secret she is keeping from Bree. Claire admits she can mask her feelings if she has time to prepare; it's when she is caught off guard that she is her most transparent.
Something I have noticed while reading through the posts in all of the discussions is the tendancy to second quess the writer from the standpoint of having already read the story.I try to look at it from the "now" of it happening, I guess...I mean, in your comments, Shelly and Kim, you think it strange that neither Roger or Bree find it strange that Claire is seeking info about long dead people. Roger would likely be far more interested in simply helping her, as that is where his interst lies...that and keeping her gorgeous daughter around him(:>)Bree is unlikely to have many thoughts on the subject. She knows that her parents came here on a second honeymoon, and that her father had a long standing interest in the subject. What is so odd about her mother pursuing that as sort of a way to link with her dead husband? Bree has no real idea of how bad their marriage had become.
As for Claire's inability to hide anything on her face, well, of course they may have seen something in her face that they didn't understand, but so what? Roger barely knows her so I imagine lets it pass with mild curiosity.
I guess what I am saying is, neither one of them is going to think, "Hey, I bet she is trying to cover up something huge like going back in TIME or something!" They would both likely just let it pass as a curiousity.
We all see it from the viewpoint of having read the entire series at least once, more likely twice or more!!
If we look at it from that perspective, we will second guess everything, analyze it all fifty times and see deep meaning in EVERYTHING, as well as castigating poor Diana for the flaws as WE see them!!!
And while I am on my high horse...YES THE GHOST IS JAMIE!!! But can't we ALL see that there really was no high purpose at the time the book was written, because remember, Diana has said more than ONCE, she had NO intention of writing a series...I would imagine that, at the time she used it to pique our interest, to raise our curiosity, to have some FUN!!! Now, with thousands of rabid fans writing her letters about the deep meaning of Jamie appearing under Claire's window she probably feels she HAS to give us something.
And since I am here, let's give Diana, Lord John and Claire a BREAK, already, about the sex....both of these characters loved Jaime for well over 20 years. And poor John has to hide those feelings from everyone, not to mention ANY of those types of feelings from everyone. This is a man whom Diana has clearly shown is a man of honor, integrity and sensitivity (and he is NOT a whore as some have suggested, simply because he and the cook get it on, OR a slave who is very willing. How would YOU like to go without sex for years at a time?)Claire married John for protection, and really, to be technical, they HAD to consumate the marriage to make it legal, which meant they had to sleep in the same bed, which meant each had a warm body to share a very great grief with. Each felt love of Jamie in the other, and while John is gay, he certainly had sex with women in the past, as Diana mentions, because of his own needs. Is it so out of the question it could happen that way?? I grant you, I did think the second encounter less likely, though they seemed to have really begun to like each other.
So, try seeing these from a fresh standpoint. It might help.
Until the next time I go into a rant,have a great read!!
Let me be clear, I am NOT castigating Diana nor do I think there are flaws in the books!! I was merely responding to Shelly's questions off the top of my head as I said in my original post. If you read it carefully, you'll notice that I am not criticizing Diana or the book. Sure I can see how Shelly thought some of the reactions seemed odd, but I go on to justify the characters' actions if anything. Also, if you've read my posts about Echo, you would know that I am one of those who loved it. Yes, there are some on here who repeatedly question things in the books (which is their prerogative as readers), but I am not one of them. I am a very involved member of this group and if you've read my posts in general you would know that I don't "castigate" Diana. Besides, we are all fans of Diana and Outlander here and the aim of this group is not to tear apart the books. I really don't appreciate being painted as an over-analytical critic. It's untrue and unfair.
Kimberly wrote: "I have a question for you (since you're in the same spot as me). In the dream Claire has on page 70 (mass market paperback), who do you think the voice and the hand in the dream belong to? Jamie ..."Hey Kimberly,
Sorry to just be responding! I was out of town.
So I re-read the part you're talking about and I definitely think it's Jamie she's talking about.
Claire mentions being back in the Highlands, and the voice of her dream is "repeated with the sound of Brianna's sleeping breath" (which I take to be symbolic in a way, Jamie's daughter's breath repeating with the echo of his voice in Claire's dream...) It says "You are mine and I will not let you go," something Claire heard in Jamie's actions and words on several occasions. Not to mention, she's back in Scotland and searching for Jamie's men, and Frank has been dead for two years by that point. I think her mind is definitely on Jamie. There is no doubt in my mind that it's him who Claire is referring to here.
Hi Shelly--I think what initially threw me off with the voice in the dream is that there was no Scots accent; it says "will not" instead of "wilna" as it would if Jamie said those lines (see page 194). I was also thinking of it as though Frank was haunting Claire and trying to hold her back from her mission. You make excellent points and after reading C&J's exchange on pg. 194 too I agree that without a doubt it is Jamie. I'm still not sure why there is no Scots accent in the dream, but I'll go with it ;)
No, I totally understand why it would be confused. After you mentioned the scene on page 194, I reread that too and had the same reaction. He speaks in Scots on p. 194, but the dream on page 70 is not. I think that's just DG being sneaky and trying to get us to think more deeply about the books (which is exactly what we're doing!)Have you finished Dragonfly in Amber the second time around yet? I'm on page 689. I have to say though I like the book in general, I found this one slightly tedious (especially their time in France). Not sure why.
DG is a sneaky one! LOL ;)I haven't finished yet--I'm on page 529. Although this is still a 5 star book for me (as all Outlander books are, haha) and I love it, I'm also not the biggest fan of the setting in France. For me, I think it's because I feel like Jamie is out of his element; I want to see him in the Highlands (or at least in the countryside) where he belongs. Not that he doesn't fit in well with court society in France, it's just that that isn't really who he is. One of my friends on here (Kathrynn) made a comment that it "Seemed like a bass-ackwards way to solve their problem..." which made me laugh because it's kinda true :P I'm at the part where they got back to Lallybroch so I'm looking forward to the rest of my re-read.
I think you're right. It's hard for me to pinpoint exactly, but I think part of my issue is that they don't seem to belong there. They're both really out of their element. And Claire on several occasions says how tedious life can be there because of court responsibilities and the social life they have to keep up there, the gossip, etc. It would also be exhausting to live such a double life.Claire's annoyance and lack of patience with it really shows through I think - it's almost as if DG herself found their stay their tedious and let it show in the work and characters.
I'm now reading about them in Edinburgh and still finding myself anxious to get through it. Maybe it's because I know now where it's going and that all this fighting will do no good...
I've always felt that DIA is more of a transition book and it really just sets everything up for Voyager. In that way, I always find myself trying to race through it, LOL. I don't necessarily think that DG found J&C's stay in France tedious, but I do think that she was trying to impart how stressful and unpleasant their lives were there (which she did a great job of). Between the murder attempts, rape, double-dealing, BJR fiasco, and miscarriage, they had a whole lot of turmoil and hardly any good times. In fact, I really can't think of any positive "highlights" during their stay!I don't know about you, but I really enjoyed being re-introduced to Roger in DIA. I've always liked his character and it was fun to have him introduced all over again in this re-read :)
Yes, THAT part I really did enjoy - being reintroduced to Roger, "watching" his and Brianna's first interactions. It was a little bittersweet though, thinking how sweet and innocent that relationship is at that point, and how a bunch of really difficult, ugly stuff awaits them. But definitely still fun.
Are you re-reading the whole series straight through, or are you taking a break between books?
I read the entire series the first time this winter/spring - finished Echo a few weeks ago. I didn't know what to do with myself, so I just restarted the series a second time and reading them in sequence :) I also thought I'd benefit from a rereading, to catch things missed the first time.
Kimberly, I took a look at my post and can't find anywhere mentioned that anyone was castigating Diana.Did not mean to give offense to anyone in particular in any case...I dont spend loads of time here, the comments that I usually get come through my e-mail. Sometimes I am able to go in and leave a point, but sometimes I don't have time, so they sort of "add up"...I was really just commenting on several of the discussions. If you have read the books over often, as I have, and it does sound as if you have, would you not agree that Diana really had no deep mystery in her head when she wrote the part about Jamie under the window? She has said many times that the series started as a lark, and she didn't thing anyone would publish them!Really, the comment about Claire's face was legitimate. I was just trying to point out that we forget to look at the book with fresh eyes if we already know the characters.
And the Lord John and Claire sex thing was sort of out of frustration from having read so many comments about it being completely out of character. I think I was actually DEFENDING Diana!! As well as John, of course, because I do enjoy his character, and particularly after having read Brotherhood of the Blade.
Just thought I would clarify.
Hi Lisa--Your post did mention it, "...as well as castigating poor Diana..." but it's no big deal. I appreciate your response and clarification. My feathers get a bit ruffled at the thought of being lumped in with those who find serious fault with Diana's writing because I'm also a big defender of hers like you are.I agree that Diana probably didn't have some big old scheme in mind when she wrote Outlander, but I do think that she has the answer to the ghost in mind now. I know that she doesn't really sit down and plan all the books out, which is amazing to me because I don't know how she can keep everything and everyone straight! I'm in awe.
I am one of the few (along with Jessa on here for one) of the fans who actually doesn't have a problem with the LJ/Claire situation in Echo other than I want J&C to makeup (of course). I also really enjoy LJ and have immense respect for his character for his taking care of William. I REALLY need to get to reading the LJ books! I'm planning on reading them after I'm finished with my re-read of DIA. They've been staring at me on my bookshelf for way too long :)
And, yes, it definitely is a "hindsight is 20/20" scenario when re-reading these books. There are so many things that wouldn't have meant anything to be before having read the rest of the series (like the scenes in DIA where Frank is lecturing with the miniatures). These books are so immensely rich in detail and that is one of the many things I love about them.
Anyway, thanks!
Shelly wrote: "I read the entire series the first time this winter/spring - finished Echo a few weeks ago. I didn't know what to do with myself, so I just restarted the series a second time and reading them in se..."I know I'm benefiting from a re-read. I read through the books so fast the first time (I just HAD to find out what happened, LOL!) that I know I missed a few things. I'm starting the LJ books after DIA before I move on to Voyager. Have you read them yet?
Thanks for the response Kim. I admit I nearly got snotty when one person called John a whore...might have been slut, but who remembers...and that person or another mentioned him forcing a slave...well, really, do they not READ the parts about John?? He would no more force a person than Jamie would!! So I DO get frustrated sometimes...but I THINK I can hear you talking to yourself TOO when you sort of want to comment but don't know how to word it without giving offense..(:>)The Lord John book that gives you most insight is the Brotherhood. The others I have read have been shorts, enjoyable but try that one first..Gotta go, nice chatting!!
Kimberly wrote: "Shelly wrote: "I read the entire series the first time this winter/spring - finished Echo a few weeks ago. I didn't know what to do with myself, so I just restarted the series a second time and rea..."No, haven't read the LJG books yet but I did get the first one and it's sitting on my bookshelf as well :) Though, I'm now determined to re-read the entire Outlander series in sequence, so it will probably be a few weeks before I get around to it.
I hear you. There are a few threads on here that I typically avoid because there are too many challenges to the books for my taste (many relating to Echo of course). I just want to plug my ears and say, "LALALALA" if you know what I mean ;)Thanks for the tip about Brotherhood. I am sooo excited to read them all! I agree--LJ is NOT someone to force another person to do anything. He is way too classy for that.
Shelly wrote: "Kimberly wrote: "Shelly wrote: "I read the entire series the first time this winter/spring - finished Echo a few weeks ago. I didn't know what to do with myself, so I just restarted the series a se..."We'll have to compare notes once we've both read them :)
I bet Diana gets a real charge out of our notes, to think she can raise such interesting topics for discussion and isn't that what a good author does?
Kim had a point about DIA being a transition book for Voyager. Do you think AEITB is also a transition book for the finale?
Gerri wrote: "Kim had a point about DIA being a transition book for Voyager. Do you think AEITB is also a transition book for the finale?"Yes for sure! I almost said that in my earlier post actually ;) I really think Diana is transitioning to the younger generation in that one (Ian, William, Bree/Roger, etc.). I personally loved Echo--it was different, but good.
This forum always makes me really think about these books! I have read them all multiple times (except Echo) and yet you all are constantly coming up with all of these questions and theories.. I love it!As far as Claire's glass face- later in that book when she gets Geillis' journal she lies there, also. She says if she has time to prepare she can keep her thoughts hidden. Plus like it was said above- she has a lot of practice hiding her thoughts from Brianna.
I can't imagine Brianna or Roger thinking there was anything more than curiousity about Claire's inquiries into the Lallybroch men, since they would have no way of even thinking about time travel. They probably thought she was continuing Frank's work since Brianna didn't really know the relationship between her parents...
I've also kind of changed my mind about the LJG/Claire thing thanks to everyone giving me so much to chew on :) I don't like it, although I see why it was necessary to make the marriage legal. I felt like I had been slapped in the face when I read it... sitting here going WHAT?!?! But Diana has done that to me before (Think DIA) and I am confident she will sort things out. I am a huge LJG fan and can't wait to see where she goes from here.
Just to clarify, I don't necessarily think Roger and Brianna should/would have figured out that Claire was thinking about time travel. That would be quite a leap :) All I meant was, Claire's face is normally so transparent, I figured through this whole process of looking for the Lallybroch men with Roger and Bree, the two of them would have noticed *something* was odd in Claire's behavior and would've questioned it a bit more. Maybe that's just my personality :)
Lisa wrote: "Thanks for the response Kim. I admit I nearly got snotty when one person called John a whore...might have been slut, but who remembers...and that person or another mentioned him forcing a slave...w..."I have read all the LJ books and I do love him - he is just such a COOL character with such wonderful humor and honor. I don't know who called him a whore of slut but I did comment that with the slave, although LJ would never force anyone, there was an imbalance of power so that even if the slave wanted to refuse he might have been afraid to. Nevertheless...I adore these books no matter what DG throws at us!!
As I've been reading these posts about LJ & the slave quarters, one thing keeps coming up that makes me wonder about it. We know that some of the women are in one big room dormatory style with beds or cots placed right next to each other and if the men's quarters follow suite wouldn't the lack of privacy be a problem? It's not to say some of the slaves may have had more private rooms I guess, but, from all I understand of LJ he is not big on public displays. Anyway, just another view point. What if Bree's assumption is wrong? What if he was playing chess or a game of cards and won big?
Mary wrote: "As I've been reading these posts about LJ & the slave quarters, one thing keeps coming up that makes me wonder about it. We know that some of the women are in one big room dormatory style with bed..."I'm confused. Bree's assumption about what?
Kimberly wrote: "Mary wrote: "As I've been reading these posts about LJ & the slave quarters, one thing keeps coming up that makes me wonder about it. We know that some of the women are in one big room dormatory s..."Bree assumed from the look on LJ's face and his flushed appearance that he'd had a sexual encounter in the slave quarters and is a homosexual. She uses this as the basis for her blackmail to get him to marry her. But, then reading The Outlandish Companion DG points out that Bree learns of his homosexuality by accident; so, I guess that was her intent. But, it was fun to speculate anyway. I still wonder about the lack of privacy though.
Well.. I just finished Dragonfly in Amber. Man, I just want to beat Jamie on the head for sending her back, but I understand why he did it. Starting Voyager tonight after work, or perhaps on lunch. I keep hearing many good things about this book, so I can't wait to start it!
:)
Mary wrote: "Kimberly wrote: "Mary wrote: "As I've been reading these posts about LJ & the slave quarters, one thing keeps coming up that makes me wonder about it. We know that some of the women are in one big..."The incident, when Brianna recognized LJG being gay, is put down in DoA, chapter 59, page 938: Though always having been "treated with attention and respect", but there was something missing, which she "could not identify, for some time not even being aware of it". When she met Lord John, however, leaving the servents' quater, she was reminded of a former schoolmate and new for sure: "... he did not chime for her, but now he was ringing like a firebell".
Kelleigh, enjoy reading Voyager. I do hope you'll love it, out of the whole lot this one is my favourite!
Kelleigh wrote: "Well.. I just finished Dragonfly in Amber. Man, I just want to beat Jamie on the head for sending her back, but I understand why he did it. Starting Voyager tonight after work, or perhaps on lu..."
Oh man, I'm excited for you to read Voyager for the first time. It's definitely one of my favorites of the series.
Lisa wrote: "Something I have noticed while reading through the posts in all of the discussions is the tendancy to second quess the writer from the standpoint of having already read the story.I try to look at..."
LOVED your rant, Lisa!
Voyager is king as far as I am concerned, though I love all four. Voyager is a beautiful book
Kimberly wrote: "I hear you. There are a few threads on here that I typically avoid because there are too many challenges to the books for my taste (many relating to Echo of course). I just want to plug my ears a..."I feel the same way.. I wanted to mention that according to Diana, the LJG books are meant to be read in a particular order - Private Matter, First 3 stories in Hand of Devils, Brotherhood of the Blade, and then the last (third) story in Hand of Devils. After that, it will be the Scottish Prisoner which she is working on...
I checked out Diana's website a while back, and this is the order she has the LJG books in:1."Lord John and the Hellfire Club" (short story, first story in HAND OF DEVILS)
2.LORD JOHN AND THE PRIVATE MATTER (novel)
3."Lord John and the Succubus" (novella, second story in HAND OF DEVILS)
4.LORD JOHN AND THE BROTHERHOOD OF THE BLADE (novel)
5."Lord John and the Haunted Soldier" (novella, third story in HAND OF DEVILS)
6."The Custom of the Army" (novella, published March 16, 2010)
7.LORD JOHN AND THE SCOTTISH PRISONER (novel, in progress, estimated publication date sometime in 2011, but that's just a guess)
I've always heard Private Matter first though. It all seems a bit confusing, but I'll give it a go. Have you read them yet Eva?
I'm in the middle of the Private Matter. I read an excerpt from The Scottish Prisoner and it looks like it is written in both LJ and Jamie's perspective. I like the LJ book so far... mostly reading for glimpses of Jamie.
I just tend to like LJ better within the Outlander series... don't think he has enough emotional involvement at all in the LJ books to draw me in... I know she didn't set out to write that type of book - more mystery I guess, but just don't like him as well in these books.
I've enjoyed reading the posts here and this is my first time posting.
I've read the entire series once, and am now working my way through it a second time. I'm really enjoying it the second time around, picking up on things I overlooked or didn't make sense the first time I read the books.
I'm currently a quarter of the way through Dragonfly in Amber and found myself wondering about a couple of things, specific to Claire's interactions with Roger at the beginning of the book.
First: Did anyone else think it was strange that Roger and Brianna don't really ask for much of an explanation about WHY Claire wants Roger to look up the names of the Lallybroch men, why she's interested in any of this at all? She's obviously intensely interested in what happened to them, beyond what a normal curiosity would be. Don't Roger and Bree find this strange, and why wouldn't they just ask her about it?
At various points, there are mentions of this being Frank's project, and that's why she's interested. But considering her relationship with Frank and how little interest she showed in his work in general throughout the years, don't you think both Bree and Roger would find that odd? Out of nowhere, she's interested in this project?
Second: This is a more minor point, but I thought it was an interesting inconsistency. In his first dealings with Claire, Roger says a few times that he noticed something in her demeanor that tipped him off something was up, but that her face showed little else. I found that a little odd considering that at several places in the first book, people tell Claire that what she's thinking is very clear on her face. People can pretty much look at her and tell what's going through her mind. Anyone else find that odd?