Steven Erikson's Malazon Book of the Fallen Series

[Jason]

Clay, I read the prologue to Deadhouse Gates before going to bed this morning (I work nights) and I have to say that it was much more impressive. And very brutal! LOL It caught my attention more so than Garden's of the Moon, at any rate.

[Jason]

Dawn, I've always wanted to return to Malazon, but had to find that motivation as well. I found that Clay's passion for it sparked my interest again. I want to feel that passionate about a series of books again, too. lol

[Jason]

Maggie, I sort of got that feeling of amazing world building from Gardens, and even in the prologue of Deadhouse Gates. There were times, especially with the Priest of Hood and then the march through the city where I felt as though I was there. I could picture it like a movie in HD anyway...LOL Very dark and gritty, which I love and am very much in the mood for.

Regarding that Tor.com discussion, I didn't read too much into it because they give warning at the beginning that future plot points will be given away. I've already had a review from Amazon.com from the fourth of the Malazan series ruin one of the deaths on me.

I'm not even sure why I was there. But, as a warning to others, do not check out House of Chains on Amazon.com. The very first review blows a future character death within its very first sentence. I wonder if you can complain to Amazon about this?

[Maggie]

Jason-Ive got to say I am really glad to see you are reading th DG...Ive been involved in the TOR reread so I am reviewing it as they go along and there are some truly gorgeous and heart wrenching scenes in there.
This is not a spoiler, but when you get to a scene with BUTTERFLIES...my vote for most emotional scene...well maybe one other, but gut clenching none the less

[Jason]

Thanks, Maggie. I'm looking forward to it!

I have one other question. Upon looking at that Tor.com reread, I noticed that Esslemont's books are also included. His first is put between books 1 and two of Erikson's series. So, I was wondering if it would enrich my Malazan experience if I were to read his books, too? And if so, is there an order I would insert his books amongst Erikson's, such as the reread suggests?

[Maggie]

the series are both set in the same world, but dont overlap.
The first Esslemont,
Night of Knives takes place in Malaz city and is set before the events in Gardens of the Moon.
In Tor, we read it after gardens just because that was what the author suggested. Must re-reads place it after House of Chains, but I think reading it second was helpful.
It is totally a side-story but the history of it solves a few of the puzzles.

[Jason]

Cool. Thanks, Maggie!

[Robert]

RE: the discussion about Gardens of the Moon, above. I thought it was great all the way through personally. I thought the payoff at the end was excellent, and the journey getting there was engaging. DG is excellent as well, of course, but by and large if you didn't like Gardens of the Moon at all, I doubt you'll like DG or the rest of the series.

[Dawn]

Jason wrote: "Dawn, I've always wanted to return to Malazon, but had to find that motivation as well. I found that Clay's passion for it sparked my interest again. I want to feel that passionate about a series o..."

I'll be looking forward to hearing what you think of book two! If you like it I may move it up in my reading priority :)

[Jason]

Dawn, I will let you know.

So far I am enjoying it more than Gardens. Much more. I didn't get much reading done yesterday, though, so I'm still not all that far into it.

[Clay]

Jason, really glad you're enjoying Deadhouse Gates! I think you're in for a real treat! I'll be anxious to read you're thoughts as you finish.

R. Scott, I'm also one of those who loved Gardens of the Moon all the way through. From the visceral descriptions of the battle for Pale to the frantic night hunting in Darujistan to Anomander Rake's soultaken unveiling. Simply awesome. However, from a literary point of view, I still thought Deadhouse Gates was a better novel. Gardens for sure.

Re: Esslemont's books. Night of Knives is the only one so far that sort of breaks with the setting. It, as the title suggests, deals with the events of one fateful night. It portrays the night that the empire was turned over, from Kellanved, to Lasseen. However, Esslemont wrote it as a companion piece prequel to his and Erikson's series' so it may not work to be read first even though that would be chronologically accurate. I think that is the reason people usually suggest it is read second or third. I think it makes a good "epilogue" to GotM or "prologue" to DG. However, reading it before Memories od Ice might make even more sense as you are more familiar with a larger Malazan cast after DG. Hmm. Anyway, I like them all regardless of reading order. I've kind of been reading them as they're published, so maybe I'm not the best one to be giving advice... :-)

[Mach]

I have only read the to first books and i was a bit disapointed when none of the characters i liked where in Deadhouse Gates. In which book does Paran, Kruppe and Anomander Rake reappear?

[Maggie]

they are back in memories of ice

[Clay]

Maggie's right ... and man are they ever back! Memories of Ice rocks the house! (Or inn, tavern or palace ... take your pick). But seriously, MoI is an excellent follow up to Deadhouse Gates AND it plops you back on Genebakis with a vengeance. If DG does its job and sucks you in, MoI will cement your Erikson fandom.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma*]

Ok, I own a Kobo. WHere would I get a copy of the first book? I tried Kobo and Sony with no luck.

[Clay]

It looks like it's available for Kobo for $7.99 at the following link:

http://kobobooks.com/ebook/Gardens-Of...

[Mach]

Clay wrote: "Maggie's right ... and man are they ever back! Memories of Ice rocks the house! (Or inn, tavern or palace ... take your pick). But seriously, MoI is an excellent follow up to Deadhouse Gates AND it..."

I will read Memories of Ice, but it's the last chance i will give this series if i am not blown away this time, i won't be reading anymore of this series. I have 6/7 books that i have to read first but i will get to it eventually.

Those three characters that appear in the end of Deadhouse Gates, do they play a part in MOI?

[Clay]

Machavelli,

Hmm... Not exactly. Memories of Ice takes place, chronologically speaking, somewhat simultaneously with the events detailed in Deadhouse Gates and about 4 months (give or take) after the events in Gardens of the Moon. Since MoI and DG take place on different continents, their story lines aren't immediately convergent. However, as the series progresses there begins to come a merging of story lines.

But it depends on which three characters you're referring to as to where and when they appear next in the epic... Suffice to say all of the characters written of in the end of Deadhouse Gates do make future appearances in the Malazan Book of the Fallen epic.

The epilogue of Deadhouse Gatesdeals almost exclusively with an, as yet unborn, baby and that child makes an appearance in Ian C. Esslemont's series beginning with Return of The Crimson Guard (which fits chronologically right after the events in Steven Erikson's The Bonehunters).

And the final chapter of Deadhouse Gates deals with a good assortment of characters who make appearances in future installments of the series as well. Mappo Trell and Icarium will show up regularly in many future installments as will the Trygalle Trade Guild, Stormy, Gessler, the Wickans, Iskaral Pust and Mogora, Kalam, Minala, Apsalar, Crokus and Fidler. Some will have larger parts than others ... but they'll all be back within a few books if not immediately.

[Mach]

*Spoiler alert*

I was thinking about the three gods that appear for the first time in the end of the book, i think they were on another world, and there was some evil character there as well, i am not sure if it was the last chapter or the epilogue.

[Clay]

Ah ... I believe you may be referring to Shadowthrone and Cotillion (not sure who the third may have been - it's been a while since I re-read DG). If that is the case, yes, they will play a part in Memories of Ice. But then, many of the pantheon play a role in MoI as it deals somewhat with the initial rise of the Fallen (or the Chained God).

Memories of Ice primarily follows Whiskeyjack's Bridgeburners as they strike south from Darujistan, across Genebakis, with a tenuous and unlikely alliance to face an unknown enemy threatening the entire continent. But there are plenty of side stories thrown in as well. MoI is probably one of the most emotionally moving novels of the series while also being one of the darkest and (maybe) bloodiest.

[Clay]

Sorry if I am not thinking of the same characters as you are ... like I said, it's been a while since my re-read and I quickly scanned the last few chapters to try to zero in on who you may be referring to with little success.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma*]

Thank you, Clay! Kobo's search function hates me sometimes. :)

Do you think you could find Monster Hunter International for me, too? Please?

[[deleted user]]

Lol...I'll email you a copy of Monster Hunter International and the sequel MrsJoseph :) I'm Clay's supplier too so we might as well cut out the middle man ;)

[Clay]

Sounds like Grant's got you covered. I tried a kobo search AND a Google search for Monster Hunter International (on Kobo) with no success. Not sure where it's hiding... :)

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma*]

Grant wrote: "Lol...I'll email you a copy of Monster Hunter International and the sequel MrsJoseph :) I'm Clay's supplier too so we might as well cut out the middle man ;)"

Thank you very much, Kind sir. :)

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma*]

Clay wrote: "Sounds like Grant's got you covered. I tried a kobo search AND a Google search for Monster Hunter International (on Kobo) with no success. Not sure where it's hiding... :)"

Good (or not good), at least its not just me.

[Robert]

Machavelli, it may just be that these books aren't going to be your cup of tea. You said in another discussion that you don't like The Black Company, and I should note that the Black Company books were a major influence on Erikson. So the fact that you don't like either of them indicates that maybe these just aren't your sort of books. Which is fine, of course :)

[Clay]

For anyone interested, TOR has posted Bill Capossere's spoiler free review of the final chapter of the Malazan Book of the Fallen: The Crippled God at the following link:

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/02/more...

Yes, it is spoiler free. However, if you haven't read to book 9 yet, it may not be. He mentions certain characters and that could be construed as a spoiler to those not wanting to know who is alive, dead, or a mixture of both going into book 10.

The review has me excited though! If you're an Erikson fan, check it out.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma*]

I really have to start this series. My TBR list is out of control. Not to mention the fact that I've bought over 30 books this calender year. *shame face*

[Clay]

I know what you mean ... I have so many I need to get read too! I suppose I'll just have to keep working at it until I make some headway. Who am I kidding? The list never shrinks - only grows...

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma*]

lol! So true! I had plans on shrinking my list...instead its' grown by leaps and bounds.

*shakes fist* damn you Goodreads!

[Clay]

Yeah ... Goodreads is my enabler as well. So many books ... so little time...

[S.B.]

WooHoo! The Transworld international edition of The Crippled God is available for Kindle on Amazon.com!

It's not easy to find (most searches keep coming up with the fortcoming Tor edition), so I included the link above.

Now, I'm off to find a quiet stop to hide . . . I suspect there will be no sleep tonight. :)

[Clay]

Oh man ... due to preorder, I gotta wait til March 1... The anticipation is killing me...

[[deleted user]]

It's my number 2 book for my March reads. As soon as I finish The Wise Man's Fear I'll be all over The Crippled God :) Looking forward to hashing out the storyline with ya, Clay

[Lori]

Hi everyone, this group came up in my status from a friend's comment here but I can't remember who! Which shows you my memory is Not.That.Great. So I can tell you that note taking is absolutely NOT necessary - I didn't. This is probably my most favorite series. I've been obsessed.

The first book is the hardest because you are plopped in the middle of a battle in the middle of a continent in the middle of a complex society AND alternative world. So yikes! But I just kept going, and everything starts coming together. Yes there's lots of characters, but Erikson lets you know who to concentrate on and follow.

I can say that the glossary at the beginning is helpful. But after a few books I stopped having to reference it.

I am DYING to discuss TCG with someone. Anyone finished? Bueller?

[Clay]

Hi Lori, Erikson's epic is, hands down, my favorite fantasy series. I found it witty, thrilling and totally immersive. His ability to paint that deeply moving and viscerally brutal world with such ease always amazed me. I'm nearing the end of Ian Esslemont's Stonewielder now which will be the end of the currently released Malazan books for me... Kinda depressing.

Anyway, yes, I've read The Crippled God and loved it! Feel free to discuss away. However, be sure to remember to notify of spoilers in your post (if they exist) to warn others away if they haven't finished it yet.

[Lori]

How can there not be spoilers? :D Should we start a separate thread perhaps, that seems safest.

[Clay]

Nah. This is the MBotF thread. I say let the discussion begin. I just thought it would be compassionate to mention there will be spoilers before the discussion begins.

However, if you'd prefer a separate thread, feel free to start one and let me know where. :)

[[deleted user]]

Lol..you guys might want to start a Buddy Read thread before you go spoilering up the series thread with the Last book in the series ;) I've read it too and loved it so I'll join in as well!

[Jason]

You can use the spoiler html thingy, too:

< spoiler > Your spoiler < / spoiler > without the spaces, of course.

Alternatively, simply put SPOILER before your spoiler.

[Jason]

I agree with you, so far Lori. I have a terrible memory, but I'm doing okay with the Malazan books. I'm just starting Memories of Ice.

[Lori]

OK first I have some questions. The most important of the puzzle for me are:

(view spoiler)[TCG. I've read these books over the last 7 years so my memory is sketchy. Who brought him down, and why? For some reason I think it has to do with Kallor? And who was involved: Tiste Imass, Tistes Andii, who else?

Ontaral. Now I thought it was created by the chaining. And the figures in the green were his worshippers. Yet even when he is "killed" at last and departs, the green remains.

But we find out the Ontaral dragon came out of Chaos. Help, I'm confused! :D And wasn't the Ontaral dragon heartbreaking? I know it had to be done, but was saddened by her chaining.

And one last thing for now, I really thought Karsa was going to play a bigger role. And he was the one who evolved the most. From nihilist to savior.

Did you like the end, especially Hetan? That may be perceived as sappy, but I still liked it. After all that nihilism it was nice to end with love!

It's paradoxical that this series, which is basically one war after another with minutely detailed violent and vicious battle scenes, stands on one of finest anti-war platforms. (hide spoiler)]

[mark]

i appreciate these spoiler spaces, thanks guys. i'll probably be reading Deadhouse Gates next month, as long as i can keep forgetting an obnoxious spoiler i read in another group. so far, so good!

anyway, so i have a question for folks who are far along or finished with the series...does the writing improve, in terms of characterization and dialogue? there was a lot that i loved in Gardens, certainly enough to make me really excited about the sequels. but i thought both of those elements were abysmal in the first book and i am hoping erickson's skills in those areas sharpened over time.

[Clay]

Mark, in my opinion, Erikson's writing gets much better the futher you go in the series. His Characterization and his dialog are actually some of the things I enjoy most in his later books. I think Gardens was something of a stage setter and world introduction. The action picks up in the middle and dumps you into this new world with very little background. In the succeeding books, you get loads of background and plenty of delicious character dialog to carry you on.

Stick with it. I can't recommend MBotF highly enough.

[Jason]

Mark, there's some good character grown in Deadhouse Gates. But, to warn you, it's almost an entirely new cast. We don't get back to the guys from Gardens until book three. Only four characters from Gardens is in Deadhouse.

[Lori]

And at first that's so disappointing, but you quickly get so drawn into the new cast of characters and happenings, that when you get back to the Bridgeburners, etc. that's almost disappointing, ha! Then you just get caught up in the ride, and you absolutely don't care which book has what. And then they do start coming together in the later books.

And I agree, the first book is jarring so you don't get to enjoy the characterizations and dialog.

[Clay]

Lori, some spoiler ridden thoughts on your post series musings:

(view spoiler)[Like you, I read the series over several years and have lost some of the finer details over time. I imagine my future reread of the series will shed more light on many of these questions ... or maybe not. Maybe Erikson intended some of the ancient history to be murky.

I believe the chaining was done by several elder gods - not sure why exactly - but I recall reading something on it in one of the books. Again, a reread will be in order for me to find where I read that.

It was my understanding that otataral was created at any place where a devastatingly immense quantity of sorcery was unleashed. Obviously, the chaining would have been just that kind of event. So I agree that there would have been a lot of otataral left from that action. But there could have been multiple events around the globe which could have resulted in otataral deposits.

I think the green "comets" in the sky will follow the spirit of the Crippled God wherever it goes. I just assumed that, even though they were still visible in the sky, they would soon alter their course to follow their deity. Not sure though.

Chaos is the forefather of magic but magic tends to obey structures where chaos is the absence of structure. And the regular elient are the embodiment of warren sorcery where the otataral dragon is anti-sorcery ... uh ... I just realized I have no idea where I'm going with this. So forget it and understand that I'm as clueless as you on the whole chaos/otataral/dragons/sorcery front... ;) And yes, I thought the second chaining of the otataral dragon was pretty heart wrenching as well. However, as you said, it was necessary both to save its life and to save the warrens themselves.

I had hoped for a much larger role from Karsa in The Crippled God too. It was something of a disapointment to see his presence so lacking in the conclusion. But I still loved the ending! And it's not just a woman's romanticism that enjoyed Helian's conclusion. It was a truly refreshing end to the darkness pervading the series - not to mention Crokus' and Apsalar's reunion. (hide spoiler)]

[mark]

regarding characterization & dialogue, thanks - that's all very good to hear!

[Lori]

How do you others feel about Cotillion? I sure hated him at first, with what he did to Apsalar. He quickly became one of my favorite characters.

And I admit, I fell in love with Rake.

OK more TCG stuff: (view spoiler)[It's so reassuring that you will be relying on a reread too! I don't think there's any other way to makes sense of everything.

That's helpful about the ontaral forming from lots of sorcery. I don't remember that. But it's obvious it can't only be from TCG. As far as Chaos is concerned, that's another thing I'll be looking out for in the reread, because I don't think magic exists Chaos at all. Out of chaos came Mother Dark, etc, that added structure. And then it was GACK already forgot his name, wtf? oh yeah, K'rul created the first warrens. Not that important, but I did enjoy that mythology about chaos and then structure.

It seemed that Shadowthrone and Cotilion still had things to accomplish, or was that just the happy ending for Fiddler? Loved that too.

god, I just loved this series. It had EVERYTHING. Not easy reads, by far, so much to think about over so many subjects. Have you read any of the Esselmont books? I haven't. Yet. I can tell you that when I finished TCG I was quite depressed for a good week or 2. It was OVER! For the past 7 years I had a Malazan book to look forward to! (hide spoiler)]