Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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What else are you reading? (June 2010 - May 2013) *closed*
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Mtsnow13
(last edited Jan 09, 2012 12:02PM)
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Jan 09, 2012 12:00PM
Yes, I was thinking the same thing as I have seen demon themes in many Het romance/paranormal books, but not in M/M yet? The closest I've seen is J.R.Ward's BDB series.. I'm thinking right now I'm going to jump over from the Wild West of Wyoming to Japan with
. I have always been fascinated with that culture since I spent a year there. I love how we get to travel the world AND our comfort zones in books..GR has been the best for me in getting me access to new and interesting subjects and authors!!!
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Lou wrote: "I'm waiting for demons to become the next big thing."Demons never turned my crank. You'd think a lot of folks would've picked up on it when the Exorcism of Emily Rose and all those exorcism movies were rolling out a few yrs back.
I want to see more m/m similar in theme/feel of 1408. Or Rose Red. Haunted house. Don't screw the ghost; don't become friends with the ghost, FGS. SURVIVE the ghost. I'd be all over that.
I totally knew this was for me. :-)Oco wrote: "Totally type-o, *lol* I stared at the word for a bit, thinking that corporeal was bodies and all, and then said, 'fuck it'. Promise I wouldn't do that for a story to be published. :D
But it is funny - I picture Vic scolding people while he is astral projecting. (GhosTV)
With m/m, one can start at an equal baseline and examine the kink/power dynamics without all the baggage. A big old pretend game, frankly.
That - starting at an equal baseline without baggage - is one of my favorite things about M/M.
Lou wrote: "The problem with zombies is that while they are great menace - K.Z.'s story notwithstanding - they don't make easy romantic heroes. Demons on the other hand... All I have to do is think of Wicked G..."Ew. I don't want one as romantic hero. I want one (thousand) to try to eat my heroes and not in a fun way, either. LOL.
Dawn of the Dead...with smut. REAL smut. Not just a few flashes of T&A to give the teen boys their jollies.
Kari wrote: "Oco wrote: "...an awful lot gets lumped into the four letters of BDSM..."Ain't that the truth. But also gives you a lot of latitude to play without ever actually leaving kink altogether, which is cool."
Including dubcon! You're just fighting an uphill battle trying to make that distinction, huh?
Lou wrote: "I'm waiting for demons to become the next big thing."Yum; demons.
Lou wrote: "It's the challenge that gets me excited. Just imagine: if you succeeded writing an honest to goodness zombie-love and make the readers like it, that would be something."Nope, no can do. I've been conditioned by 30yrs of zombie annihilation. No way could I make a hero out of one. :-)
Lou wrote: "I'm reading Rifter in the correct order for a change."Good boy! ;)
Charming wrote: "Including dubcon! You're just fighting an uphill battle trying to make that distinction, huh?"Oh, I surrendered that field a looooooooooong time ago. At first I was horrified when people labelled/tagged Spoils as BDSM (slavery as cultural convention, NOT a choice) and then there's the not-so-little matter of BDSM requiring consent (Micah is in no mental state to objectively consent to anything)...
Then, readers started yelling at me. So I tried drawing a line between BDSM and kink, but that didn't wash either. So I just gave up.
Fine, says I, I write BDSM. Here's the next story. Rock on.
;-D
Lou wrote: "Kari wrote: "Lou wrote: "It's the challenge that gets me excited. Just imagine: if you succeeded writing an honest to goodness zombie-love and make the readers like it, that would be something."N..."
Zombie werewolves -- Buy One Phobia Get One Free! :D
Kari said: Then, readers started yelling at me. So I tried drawing a line between BDSM and kink, but that didn't wash either. So I just gave up. That, Kari, is a big one. And I have to say that I don't blame readers for wanting to know which one they are getting.
Dubcon, noncon, slavery, all are what I call writing/reading the fantasy of BDSM. I prefer it to actual BDSM stories, of which I like few. Even so, I sympathize with a reader who wants safe/sane/consensual and mistakenly picks up a book that is more about the fantasy that SSN BDSM tries to capture.
Have you read Thom Lane's Dark Heart series? It's brilliant (IMO, especially the first one), he world builds wonderfully, his writing is subtle and rich. But it's a slavery society, about slaves who by and large love being 'abused' by their masters... pure fantasy. And man, has he gotten slammed on GR for that. Lots of people griping about how it's not BDSM (I know you understand from personal experience). I get annoyed as a reader, because it artificially depresses ratings and I have trouble finding the good writing when people's ratings are politically driven.
I'm ranting, I know. In part I blame publishing (though with the understanding that they have to draw lines somewhere) for lumping these two separate types of stories into one description. As far as I'm aware (and I looked), Lane NEVER described his books as BDSM. But the publisher (Loose ID) did. And that's what people are punishing his stories for -- the publisher's description.
Rant over.
Mod
btw, I think "Thank you very kindle" should be our new catch phrase. I like it! ;-)
Oco wrote: "That, Kari, is a big one. And I have to say that I don't blame readers for wanting to know which one they are getting. Dubcon, noncon, slavery, all are what I call writing/reading the fantasy of ..."
Yes, I ADORED Thom Lane's Aramanth (sp?) stories and if he got his ass handed to him over his non-standard BDSM (I prefer kink, FWIW), I can definitely relate, you bet.
I wouldn't (and don't) blame LI for the tagging/labelling, though. LI, I think, is just responding to what readers by and large identify these fringe sorts of books as. My gloriously smutty but no less dubcon I Omega was just voted #2 BDSM for the MMR Group's Member Choice awards last weekend. That pretty much says it all as far as what readers identify my work as.
If anything, my books (and I'm sure a good many of my readers would agree) are a primer on how NOT to do BDSM. I get graded down for that sometimes, but them's the breaks. When I can't take the heat anymore, I'll get out of dubcon. Until then...For every reader you find who protests that I don't write BDSM, you'll find ten more who swear I do. Sometimes, I get clobbered. But so far, it's still worth it.
Mod
lol, or maybe I've just been reading/writing too much fanfic so that I like twists on the ordinary. It makes it extraordinary, in my opinion.
Charming wrote: "There is an M/M story with a zombie romantic lead:I Fell in Love with a Zombie
"I own that one, Charming. Haven't read it, but I do have it on my K3.
I get that author perspective, and it's one I take myself. But I'm saying that from a reader's perspective, it is also annoying to have agendas play out on reviews, when you just want to know if something is well-written.And again, I DO sympathize with people who squick at dubcon (e.g.) wanting a way to identify it. I think it would be helpful for publishers to stop simply describing these titles as BDSM in their warnings, but to find a way to tell readers which variety they are getting. No, publishers can't break down every little thing. But what I'm saying is that this is a BIG one, not a little one. Maybe people who don't get into BDSM see it all as the same thing, but for those of us who do, there is a vast difference that is not purely aesthetic, it is gut-level deep. I'm glad that you are able to take a long view for yourself, but it is still a problem.
Kari wrote: "Lou wrote: "I'm waiting for demons to become the next big thing."Demons never turned my crank. You'd think a lot of folks would've picked up on it when the Exorcism of Emily Rose and all those ex..."
Kari, have you read Oleander House by Ally Blue? Pretty creepy, and the ghosts definitely aren't the love interest. (I'm a total wimp, so my creepy may not be your creepy.)
Kari wrote: "Charming wrote: "There is an M/M story with a zombie romantic lead:I Fell in Love with a Zombie
"I own that one, Charming. Haven't..."
It . . . wasn't bad, actually. It needed a sequel since it kind of stopped in the middle of the action, but I am guessing Sean Kennedy couldn't figure out what to do with it.
I read a YA a couple of years ago with a zombie hero: I Kissed a Zombie, and I Liked It. It looks like I gave it 2 stars but no written review. So I know I didn't like it, but I couldn't give you any specifics on why. It was a library book, and I think I picked it up just to see how the author handled the zombie romance.
Jordan wrote: "I thought IO was a great twist from traditional BDSM. And sometimes I like it when an author takes something we all know in our minds and turns it around. Same was true with Collared too. A nice tw..."Oh, some readers lurv dubcon. Just lurv it, can't get enough of it.
Others...don't. They really, really don't. LOL. And that's 100% fine too.
When you write fringe stories, you just need to expect and brace for that blowback. Dubcon is the Catch-22 of BDSM is all I'm saying.
Charming wrote: "There is an M/M story with a zombie romantic lead:I Fell in Love with a Zombie
"I wanted to quote the same book. I liked it.
Becky wrote: "Kari wrote: "Lou wrote: "I'm waiting for demons to become the next big thing."Demons never turned my crank. You'd think a lot of folks would've picked up on it when the Exorcism of Emily Rose and..."
Yes! I read it and liked it a lot! That's what I'm talking about.
Has anyone here heard of the Necroscope series by Brian Lumley? That's the kind of world-building and creepy-spookiness I'd like to see more of inside m/m too. Back in the day, the Necroscope series blew me away. (Please note: I was probably in my early to mid 20s maybe? Having my mind blow was probably a lot easier back then. LOL)
Oco wrote: "I get that author perspective, and it's one I take myself. But I'm saying that from a reader's perspective, it is also annoying to have agendas play out on reviews, when you just want to know if so..."Actually, LI labels dubcon AS dubcon in its content warnings. Not sure, but I think Riptide may have as well? So pubs do try. Readers just don't always (or often, IMO) heed those warnings.
I think Riptide is doing a good job in carving a niche so that people know when they order there that they may well be getting something that is not SSC, by the books BDSM.I'd prefer to see a way to separate those two types of 'BDSM'. I don't care what it's called, who gets the title BDSM, none of that. Just a recognition that it is largely two different audiences. There was a similar separation in terms within the historical romance (whichever that term means, I don't read historicals), and also our understanding of the difference between gay fiction and m/m romance. That requires an attitudinal change, one publisher can't affect it entirely, certainly not with piecemeal warnings. But I'd like to see that shift started, at the very least with a recognition from all sides that those are two separate types of writing this big old thing that everyone likes to lump into BDSM.
Oco wrote: "I think Riptide is doing a good job in carving a niche so that people know when they order there that they may well be getting something that is not SSC, by the books BDSM.I'd prefer to see a way..."
Like I said...Pubs are doing it. You get the BDSM label/tag (for the ouchies, the D/s, the bondage, etc) and also the dubcon label/tag (which cues the reader that the SSC of the ouchies, etc need not apply).
You can do as the MMR group did for the Member Choice Awards and have two separate categories: BDSM and also Slave/Dub Con/Kidnapped. But even having those 2 distinct categories explicitly delineated...I, Omega took 1st in one and 2nd in the other. The MMR group made that distinction, but readers did not.
It's not an author failing. It's not a publisher failing. It's authors & publishers responding to reader perception and identification. The hard reality is whether I (or my publishers) agree that my work is BDSM or not is immaterial when the majority of readers identify it as BDSM.
Dubcon doesn't cover it.I understand that you are satisfied with the status quo, Kari. I do understand that you perceive it is working fine for you. I am not satisfied, however. I fail to see why wanting a delineation between the two raises your hackles.
You are also hyperbolizing my statements. I'm not accusing *anyone* of 'failing'. That's a straw man. I'm not sure this discussion is at all constructive at this point, so I'll bow back out of the thread.
Oco wrote: "Dubcon doesn't cover it.I understand that you are satisfied with the status quo, Kari. I do understand that you perceive it is working fine for you. I am not satisfied, however. I fail to see why..."
This is neither the time nor the place.
No need to leave the thread, though. Just a matter of agreeing to disagree & moving on to discuss books. :-)
Mod
It's the challenge that gets me excited. Just imagine: if you ..."
Didn't Sean Kennedy write one that seemed to get pretty good reviews? Oh, and I read something years ago by someone...Lydia Thorne? A good idea indifferently excecuted.
Mod
I agree that publishers labeling needs to be more detailed and thorough. Yes, all the publishers make an effort, but since there's no kind of standardization across the board, it's pretty hit and miss.
And, yes, readers are certainly the last to know -- and the first to reinterpret, but the ultimate responsibility for educating them lies with publishers and authors too -- the entire publishing industry, in short. Readers are following the clues we give them the best they can.
I think what is called for would be some kind of standardization across the publishing board (Oco brought up Romantic historicals verus historical romance, and I think that's a perfect example).
and then greater sub-categorizing so that readers who dislike noncon or dubcon are not having to guess from the story blurb.
Thank you to both Kari and Oco for ending the dialog when it reached impasse and before it degraded too far into personalities.
We're not always going to agree -- and sometimes we may fiercely disagree -- but so long as we focus on the ideas and not people, I think we can still have discussions that the group en large will find useful and informative.
Mod
Ouch. Wordsmithing at its finest.
Josh wrote: "What is it about discussing sex that almost inevitably leads to friction?Ouch. Wordsmithing at its finest."
LMAO -- I didn't even notice until you pointed it out. :)
Josh wrote: "Lou wrote: "I'm waiting for demons to become the next big thing.":-D
Funny you should mention that...."
YO, EVERYBODY! I think a clue has been dropped! :-D
Josh wrote: "Anne wrote: "I am working my way through The Charioteerright now, I read about it in The White Knightand got interested, and later also someone mentioned it in this grou..."Anne: The Charioteer has characters in it I have never forgotten. Ralph has remained one of my very favorite romantic heroes. Ralph is sexy. Have a ball.
Re: Dark Soul 3. I enjoyed the first two offerings quite a lot. The 2 MC's are very hot, and I was interested in following their romance and their war. Part 3, however, gave me pause. I hadn't realize how little story was likely to hang on the sexual content. And, not to spoil anything for those who haven't gotten to it, I didn't care for the direction that took in this book. Comments?
K.Z. wrote: "Josh wrote: "Lou wrote: "I'm waiting for demons to become the next big thing.":-D
Funny you should mention that...."
YO, EVERYBODY! I think a clue has been dropped! :-D"
Funny, I noticed that too...
After finishing Rifter, I am going through all Ginn Hale's books. It's not surprising, really, but Wicked Gentlemen is still my favorite of hers. I have such a literary crush on Belimai. XD
Lady*M wrote: "After finishing Rifter, I am going through all Ginn Hale's books. It's not surprising, really, but Wicked Gentlemen is still my favorite of hers. I have such a literary crush on Belimai. XD"Literary boyfriends are the best. Few real world consequences when they do you wrong, and if they really screw up you can just re-write it in your head!
What the world really needs are more gay demons. I've been saying that for years. It's about time someone listened to me.
Anne wrote: "What the world really needs are more gay demons. I've been saying that for years. It's about time someone listened to me."I listened to you... but gay demons are notoriously rebellious muses.
Lady*M wrote: "After finishing Rifter, I am going through all Ginn Hale's books. It's not surprising, really, but Wicked Gentlemen is still my favorite of hers. I have such a literary crush on Belimai. XD"I have a crush on Javier and Kyle ;) Whichever book I just finished of Ginn's in my favorite of hers. She's that good!
Candice wrote: "Re: Dark Soul 3. I enjoyed the first two offerings quite a lot. The 2 MC's are very hot, and I was interested in following their romance and their war. Part 3, however, gave me pause. I hadn't r..."Lol, I thought #3, especially Dark Lady I & II, was the best. I think the first Dark Lady deals in part with the "what-if" theme and it successfully blurs the lines between the good and the bad guys. I thought: maybe that's the best who could happen to Silvio and still...
The second Dark Lady was very seductive and I think it was beautiful to see Stefano and Silvio so close, it was their private moment, I don't know how to define it.
I don't know what to think about Dark Brother. There were elements that I wished were done differently, but the relationship between Franco and Silvio might make you grit your teeth, but it's plausible from Silvio's point-of-view, in my opinion. I think it introduces an element of danger and de-stabilization (is that a word in English) and I really want to know what will happen.
I think #3 is a sort of pregnant pause in the mafia war storyline, let's see what it will give birth to! :)
Mod
Yes, I can easily see how Silvio's actions in Dark Soul Vol 3 can make you uncomfortable. Aleksandr is definitely not taking the easy road with the storyline. ;) I liked the book worth of 5 stars though and like Emanuela and Lisa, I'm really looking forward to find out where this story finally takes us, because no doubt it's going to to be a bumpy and wild ride all the way! :) Silvio is going to give me gray hair for sure, but it'll be worth it. ;)
Anne wrote: "What the world really needs are more gay demons. I've been saying that for years. It's about time someone listened to me."Hey, I made my contribution before you even started squawking about this. :-)
And you know? I really want to thank you for that. You're off the hook. The rest of ya'll? Get busy.
Mod
Mod
Red White Black and Blue by Richard Stevenson
Blue's Bayou by David Lennon
Mahu Blood by Neil Plakcy
Malabarista by Garry Ryan
Second You Sin by Scott Sherman
A Body on Pine by Joseph DeMarco
INvisible Curtain by Alex Morgan
And five other books which were so bad I didn't finish them.
Wait, you have time to read? I need a sabbatical...
Mod
Yes. Indeed. In fact, I think sabbatical is ALL ABOUT the reading.
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