Chicks On Lit discussion
Archive 08-19 GR Discussions
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Atlas Shrugged *chunky read*
Chapter 7What an amazing chapter. OK my quote and discussion, going a little bit ahead of schedule but I don't want to lose it:
Do just as Mr. Mitchum told you to do. You are not supposed to think. The responsibility that Mr. Taggart and Locey had evaded no rested on the shoulders of a trembling, bewildered boy. He hesitated, theb he buttressed his courage with the thought that one did not doubt the good faith and the competence of railroad executives. He did not know that his vision of a railroad and its executives was that of a century ago.
Sorry, Meg, I am only up to Chapter 5 Part 2. Although not too many people are thinking in this book.You are not supposed to think.
Nancy wrote: "Laura, I finally had time tonight to listen to the NPR discussion and read the article about the BB&T college donations - very controversial. Interesting to hear both sides of the story. Surfi..."
Her philosophy is really that govt. should only have a military, a police squad, and a court system and that's it. A bit extreme.
Meg wrote: "Chapter 7What an amazing chapter. OK my quote and discussion, going a little bit ahead of schedule but I don't want to lose it:
Do just as Mr. Mitchum told you to do. You are not supposed to..."
I felt so badly for that kid. Wait til you get to Book Three. Won't be long now!
I feel like " I think I can, I think I can!"
Hi everyone - mind if I tag along on your read? I'm afraid I am late to the party here, and maybe won't catch up in time, but I would like to try. I'm new to GR and joined b/c you were reading this book. Wish I had discovered you a month ago! I have wanted to read this book for over 20 years now. In fact, I have tried several times and never could get into in. In fact, I almost decided to sell it at our garage sale b/c I just felt I would never get any further in it, but I pulled it back. In fact, when I decided this might be my only chance to read this book, I spent over an hour checking every box stacked in the garage for the sale, trying to find it, and I finally did. I bought it in Sarasota, FL in 1987 and at that time it cost $4.95! I'd love to do the audio book too, to help me along, but only if I can find it at the library. I'll definitely try.
I posted an intro in the introductions thread, and I guess I'll get reading. I'm hoping to use the discussion posts to help me get into it, so I'll be following along behind you. Looking forward to it!
We would love to have you join in. If you want to comment as you go along, we are all happy to discuss it. Welcome, we are glad you found us!
Meg wrote: "I feel like " I think I can, I think I can!""You can do it Meg!
You too Maureen! We won't let you down. This book is soooo worth it.
Maureen - glad ot have you. I had also always wanted to read this book. I'm so glad our little group is doing it. Just leap in as you read. We'll be with you!
Welcome Maureen! If any group can get you through this book, it is this group.Chapter 6 Book 2- Well, I must say I was taken a back when they decide to cancel all patents and not allow any more research to go on. As this group moves the country more and more into socialism, what is everyone's feelings about that? Do you think that that concept would ever fly now here in this country? What about the drug manufacturers who have such a big stake in the patent industry? There is never (at least I do not remember it) the mention of a president of the nation. Is there one?
Marialyce - I wondered about a presidency too. I'm inclined to think not. If there is, he (it wouldn't be a woman in that society!) would have to be a puppet controlled by their little informal committee of pull. I was not at all surprised by the laws enacted. Dr. Ferris nad his Science groupies will do the only research and if I remember his comment was that would be "enough." So much for progress. There are parts of this book that go to such extremes for me and I have to remind myself that they are intended to be somewhat abstract. For some reason, I think this book is so rich and intense that I'm having a hard time reading ahead and then recalling the chapters we're supposed to be discussing! Too much happens in the mean time!
I know I am not ahead just finished chapter 7 but was surprised when Readon signed the gift certificate. This is one of the times when the years of the novel show. Today, a captain of industry or a politician would not care if an affair is discovered. Look at Clinton and see what his affair (with out sex) did for him in the political, social, and media.He still became a multimillionaire and people seek him out for speaking engagements and such.
I was thinking the same thing! An affair doesn't garner much shame anymore. Too many examples to name! I was also interested in the news this week of Warren Buffet encouraging 40 of America's millionaires to set up estates that donate large portions of their wealth to philanthropic causes, not just as inheritance to their children. I don't know why that relates in my mind to this book exactly but it did. We live in Omaha and being stockholders, go to the annual shareholders' meeting every May. He is such an interesting man. Doesn't buy into the usual trappings of the rich. Lives in his original home. The first person he convinced to participate in his donation plans was Bill Gates. He doesn't recommend the specific causes, just supports and encourages the concept. Buffet is already known for his generosity. Sharing ones wealth, but I'm sure it is empowering deserving agencies, creative able people.
See and this book would be totally against that. Selfishness runs the show. And that's supposed to be for the good of all??? I don't buy it.
And M, I lost all respect for Clinton when that story came out. I'm sure I'm not alone in it. And I was a fan of his prior. Gotta love his brain, but again when brains dangle, it all goes to hell.
I'd love to read a bio on Buffett. Would be fascinating. Good point Nancy!
I am wondering if Rearden's guilt is due to his personal beliefs and not that of what the country would do if someone found out. I am thinking his personality is such that he strongly believes in his doctrines and doesn't want to wander off the beaten path in any form of his life. I wonder how much this played into his utter defeat and signing the certificate. He wanted to maintain the vows he took and did not want to destroy Lillian totally (although she is awful) He also is so guilt ridden about this with Dagny. He appears to be a man of virtues even though he succumbed to Dagny. He is full of guilt and conflict. I hope I am not rambling too much here.
Laura wrote: "See and this book would be totally against that. Selfishness runs the show. And that's supposed to be for the good of all??? I don't buy it.
And M, I lost all respect for Clinton when that sto..."
Love it, Laura! You are too funny!
Meg wrote: "I am wondering if Rearden's guilt is due to his personal beliefs and not that of what the country would do if someone found out. I am thinking his personality is such that he strongly believes in ..."Meg, I don' think too many people have that kind of guilt these days. Although I am happy to see that quite a few billionaires are donating 50% of their wealth to charity. I wonder what AS would have to say about acts of charity.
Meg wrote: "I am wondering if Rearden's guilt is due to his personal beliefs and not that of what the country would do if someone found out. I am thinking his personality is such that he strongly believes in ..."Not at all. I agree totally.
Marialyce wrote: "Laura wrote: "See and this book would be totally against that. Selfishness runs the show. And that's supposed to be for the good of all??? I don't buy it.
And M, I lost all respect for Clinton..."
Glad I made you laugh M! I was such a young idealist in '92, 23 with a new baby, new Pres, I had such hopes for our govt. back then.
Laura wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "Laura wrote: "See and this book would be totally against that. Selfishness runs the show. And that's supposed to be for the good of all??? I don't buy it.
And M, I lost all r..."
I had the same hopes for our current and look where that is going. :(
I think we all had those hopes. I think that might be the whole theme of the book.OK this line has really gotten to me:
I wish I could spare you what you are going through. But I can't. Every one of us has to travel that road by his own steps. But it is the same road.
The road to reality. To what is? Is that your interpretation Meg?
I think Francisco is referring to the journey of life. I think it is powerful.
My interpretation would be something to the effect that we don't learn life's lessons from someone telling us. We learn them from experience. We won't believe what we hear until we can "own" it.
Francisco's speeches throughout I think, are the best.
I found this tonight and thought it might be of interest to all http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/at...It is a website by Pamela Geller a human rights activist. Right now they are fighting the construction of a mosque across the street from the World Trade Center site.
I just thought it was probably an adaptation from the book.
One of the things that some people criticize in Ayn Rand's writing is what I LIKE about it. She goes into intricate detail about every nuance of a character's feelings and motivations. Sometimes the run-on sentence structure is distracting and I have to re-read it. But I love the fact she spends so much time on the physcial, un-spoken body language and what it betrayals of a person'a feelings. Plus what the gut response of other characters is. Talk about micro observations! In the chpt we're discussing this week-
IV - I loved the scene with Rearden and Francisco, and being interrupted with the fire. Having read somewhat ahead now, I'm still wondering the purpose of F. jumping into assist. Rearden's response to the accident proves he is not ready to abandon things yet. So Francisco can't finish the discussion. Any thoughts?
VI - All the committee efforts to freeze the economy were maddening. One more thing that sounds too familiar. And I don't know how I feel about Rearden signing the gift certificate. Did he really need to do that? Is this something else that dates the book? Is this a crack or mistake in Rearden's normally strong, in-control facade? I think it is another sign he is not ready to break free. And I think, while he means well, his weakness in giving in to them is going to be his downfall in Dagny's eyes.
VII - The pirate comes to the rescue and Rearden comes a little closer to "getting it." And the tunnel accident the ultimate example of passing the buck and not taking responsibility. Rand sure knows how to make me hate certain characters!
(just a note that I will be gone camping for a week and will not be here...although I'm not involved much now. just wanted to let y'all know.)
Have a great camping trip. I love camping!
Emily I hope you have fun and don't suffer from the high heat indexes. School meetings start for me this week... kids Monday Aug. 16, so I'll try to catch you at lunch or in the evenings.
You know what I noticed while reading AS? I have never cracked a smile reading anything in this book. Talk about serious!! I am up to Chapter 7 Book 2.
Nancy:Chapter IV I think there is a lot more to tell about Francisco and his feelings for Rearden.
Chapter VI when Rearden signs the certificate. To me he felt he had no choice, he is guilt ridden about so many things; I think he signed it to help him with his guilt.
Chapter VII was pretty upsetting for me. It makes you wonder how true this can be today. Are companies making inferior products where the consumer can gets hurt? Can we look at BP and the oil spill? Take about foreshadowing.
It is quite unnerving to read that and you are so right, Meg, with the BP, Toyota, and numerous product recalls. American industry is not what it once was sadly. As more businesses shuffle overseas the products sold here become more and more inferior. Try buying American made clothing, and you will either not find any or pay a ridiculous price for one piece of clothing I, too, think there is an enormous amount of foreshadowing of our real life in this novel. It would be interesting to find out what a person living in say England would think of this novel. Would it resemble their culture in any way?
Good points Meg and Marialyce. I know there is more to the Rearden and Francisco thing - I'm in the third section. At the time I knew it was foreshadowing something of course, just not sure what! Technology and industry are certainly making inferior products so they have to be replaced periodically. I think business is faltering in the quality for several reasons that all boil down to selfishness and self preservation. Just this morning the senior exec at Apple left in the shakeup over the problems with the IPhones. We hide our flaws to keep jobs. Plus there is Hurd's departure from Hewlett Packard over impropriaties (sp?)!! If not sexual, which is what they are currently claiming, at least unethical expenditures.
Was there a cover up over the problems with Toyota hoping it would just go away, minimizing the issues with the car? Or was this a case of expanding too fast at the price of safety? Either way its despicable. And probably passing the buck the way we saw in the tunnel accident. No one wanted to take responsibility. I have a feeling most Western European countries are in somewhat the same boat or not far behind us? There is a fine line in the world of competition where we are no long motivated by excellence but driven by greed.
Have you all read the part where the train "hobo" describes what life was like working for the Starnes? it was a description, in my opinion, of communism and how incentive was taken from every worker. I remember many years ago going to Russia and witnessing this very thing. The more I read this book, the more I am amazed at Rand's foresight.
she grew up in Russia and came to the US and became a citizen right?
I am going to have to drop out for awhile. My book is due back at the library and I can't renew it. Thinking about downloading it onto my kindle though.
It seems these days there's always a conspiracy theory. I wonder if it could be true. I don't doubt anything anymore really.
Brenda wrote: Was it foresight or did she just happen to witness and hear alot when she was growing up, and was able to capture it so well in her writing.Brenda - I think you are right - capturing alot of her years in Russia. I think its a reflection on the effects of communism. There are certainly parallels to current political/socio-economic woes and socialist leanings. But now that I am into the third section, it is less and less realistic, the sci-fi elements aside. Her visions of utopia are interesting. While Rand's counterculture isn't the brain drain, it is still sort of a cooperative. I shouldn't discuss it before its scheduled!
You don't hear much about the Toyota thing anymore. It just kind of went away. Or was overshadowed by other scandals. Interesting ovservation Brenda. I would tend to agree.
Re our work ethic - we have talked about this in the context of education, but in general we do not confront employees who aren't pulling their weight. I think its because we are ALWAYS afraid of a lawsuit. We can't afford the legal battle, so we put up with it.
CHECK THIS OUT!!!! It is unfortunately NOT real - but fan made... it would have been pretty good. There is a website of another version that is supposedly being made - see below the Youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w151-e...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0480239/
OR John Galt gift products -
http://www.johngaltgifts.com/
Nancy I am in the middle of Book Three now. I am not as riveted as I was in Books one and two.
I found Book Two the slowest, I really liked One & Three.
Thank you so much for sharing that. It is terrific. I didn't know that a movie is coming out.
Neither am I - perhaps because it is becoming less plausible?? I shouldn't spoil anything but at one point I was thinking to myself - how weird it was that she was creating this sexual tension and desire, with him carrying her around. The unspoken longing. It reminded me of how many times I wondered that Edward could hold Bella Swan's face in his hands and gaze deeply into her eyes. Oh dear... yes sometimes you have to escape into some trashy YA vampire stories, but somehow this just didn't feel that far off. MY BAD!!! Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it, but... meh!
Wow the Hank & John characters are definitely man candy! lol
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Surfing around today I ended up reading some of the reviews posted on Amazon. People either really like her or don't. One person started quite an argument in being critical, stating something to the effect that the only people that would appreciate the poor writing were young republicans. And someone else shot back that her philosophy of objectivism had nothing to do with republican fiscal ideas. VERY fascinating.