Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Anne wrote: "Totally off topic of course, but as a foreigner I love expressions like "harshing our mellow!" :) Very expressive in few words."I lurv it too. First I've heard it and I'm in the States. :-)
Josh wrote: And also about the fact that I don't work with publishers so much nowHi, Josh. Newbie first post here. *waves to everyone* Would you mind discussing a bit about your experiences self-publishing m/m fiction? Anything and everything would be most helpful—problems, obstacles, delights, disgusts.
Thanks.
JPK
Mod
That put a wide, goofy grin on my face and I can't seem to wipe it off either... :-)"
Don't..."
OUCH!!!!!
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Brilliant, isn't it! Is it an Oklahoma expression,..."
Out here we say "harshing our buzz."
I mean, some people say that. Naturally not me. I have never gone in for that nasty chemical enhancement stuff.
Hj wrote: "Josh has written about this topic elsewhere. For example: http://www.reviewsbyjessewave.com/201..."Thanks to Lou and Hj. Very helpful!
JPK
Josh wrote: "Hj wrote: "Anne wrote: "Totally off topic of course, but as a foreigner I love expressions like "harshing our mellow!" :) Very expressive in few words ..."Brilliant, isn't it! Is it an Oklahoma ..."
Of course not!
Mod
Hi, Josh. Newbie first post here. *waves to everyone* Would you mind discussing a bit about your experiences sel..."
Hi there, JP. Welcome!
Let's see. The industry -- even our little corner of the industry -- is changing so fast. So a lot of what was true even a year ago is not necessarily true today.
I personally don't think self-publishing is a viable option for a writer until you've built some kind of fan base and reputation. And that inevitably comes through publishers. Getting someone not related to you to invest in your work still means something. It gives you credibility. So when you do decide to take the show on the road, readers know your name and know you have a reputation for delivering the goods.
Lou is correct in that editing, proofreading, cover design and formatting are all things that must be paid for out of pocket in order to ensure success. You have to invest in your career, and for writers, these are the non-negotiables.
I think it's just a lot easier to work with a publisher when you're starting out. Assuming it's a halfway decent publisher, you'll get the training you need and you'll have access to their resources. And if you can't get a publisher, then -- to be blunt -- you're not ready to publish.
The other thing to be aware of is that sales in our genre have dipped considerably. Last year at this time my average (old) title was selling about 200+ copies a month. That's not the case now.
Our genre is badly crowded and our readership has been all but strip-mined. You have to bring your best game from the start. No short cuts, no thinking this is "good enough."
But putting aside the doom and gloom for a moment, I love having complete control over everything from cover art to pricing. I like working at my own pace (although I wish my pace was a lot faster) even with reduced sales, I do earn about double what I did through my publishers.
Not having a deadline is not necessarily a good thing for me, though. No. Wrong. It's probably healthier, but it's not as productive. So it's not necessarily a good thing for readers. :-D
Also, publishing through a high profile publisher does a lot to move your backlist overall, so I will continue to do a few projects every year with publishers. It's good for me on a lot of levels -- including the relief of just letting someone else handle everything other than the writing.
Did you have specific questions?
Josh wrote: "JP wrote: "Josh wrote: And also about the fact that I don't work with publishers so much nowHi, Josh. Newbie first post here. *waves to everyone* Would you mind discussing a bit about your expe..."
Fantastic information - all of you! Thank you. I'm already published traditionally with a strong international profile and work with top presses, editors, contracts, page proofs, and all that assorted good stuff, blah, blah. That's my day job. ;)
Unfortunately, my day job is not writing m/m fiction.
As I finish up my first draft of my first m/m historical novel, I'm listening to every single sage (and not-so-sage) word out there, doing my research and treading very cautiously. I've contracted a professional artist for the cover, professional editor, e-pub formatter, etc. We'll see what happens.
And, like Josh, I love (crave? need?) having complete control. It's an illness. ;)
Thank you for the warm welcome to the group, everyone!
JPK
Mod
Hj wrote: "Anne wrote: "Brilliant, isn't it! Is it an Oklahoma expression, or US-wide? For some reason, it reminded me of 'marshmallow' - I'm sure that one could write a good poem using both the phrase and the word as an almost rhyme and an echo. ..."It's a movie or TV quote initially. More of a stoner expression. US wide rather than from Oklahoma.
Here's something I found on Google. American Slang dictionary is blocked at work. :(
You’re pretty much there. Don’t harsh my mellow is American slang, meaning variously and roughly “don’t treat me badly”, “don’t get on my nerves”, “don’t make life difficult for me”, roughly the same as buzzkill in phrases like “don’t be such a buzzkill”. It’s a development of US campus slang, in which in the 1980s harsh became a verb in the sense of “to mistreat”, “to be very unfair to”.
The longer expression seems to have originally been West Coast drug and hacker slang of the middle 1990s. It became more widely known in 1997 when it turned up in The Online Adventures of Ozzie the Elf on ABC television. When Ozzie is criticised by an elf in Santa’s workshop, he says, “Don’t harsh my mellow”. Since then, as you’ve discovered, it has begun to appear from time to time in mainstream newspapers and magazines; I’ve seen it in Time magazine and also in the issue of Fortune for March 2003: “That guy really harshes my mellow, and I don’t appreciate it”. However, it has not yet become, and may never become, a common slang term in the USA.
Mellow here was presumably at first a reference to that gentle high one gets during a drug trip but may well now have been modified to refer to any comfortable feeling of being at ease. To harsh it is to introduce a jarring or discordant note, usually because you’re being criticised or leaned on by some figure of authority.
I know. More than you wanted to know about the phrase. But is is very useful. Seems something The Dude would say on The Big Lembowski.
Susinok wrote: "I know. More than you wanted to know about the phrase. But is is very useful. Seem something The Dude would say on The Big Lembowski."I love it! Being on this group has expanded my vocabulary in all directions; whippersnapper, kerfuffle and now harshing my mellow. Thanks :)
Jordan wrote: "But now here's my question, if you're new to a genre, the typical readers of that genre might never have heard of you before. I would think for the first few books, it would make sense to go with a..."Hi, Jordan. I'll answer this based on my VERY limited experiences. Feel free to stop reading at this point...
I've stayed away from trad publishers mainly because they have rules about sharing your work freely - which I get. It cuts into their profits and all. If I want to post say 50% of the draft of my first book for free to build a readership and generate discussion about this bizarre little story, pubs won't touch my stuff. Granted, what I'm doing is a personal experiment that may fail. Will fail? *shrug*
I'm also lucky (?) that there's not much good m/m storytelling going on these days in my tiny niche. It's usually either heavy info dumps from amateur historians with jarring, "Romans talked like Elizabethans" dialogue or straight-up bad porn. If I read about one more stinking gladiator wielding his mighty sword, excuse me, gladius... :)
Anyhow, I think here are a few ways to let interested folks know about your work via web groups, blogs and, of course, places like GR. It's limited, but it exists. And I don't want the (insert name of publisher here) generic bare-chested pretty dudes cover. There's my control freak problem again.
And when it comes to pubbing m/m fiction, I don't see my non-fiction pubbing experience as an advantage at all. Probably much more of a disadvantage at this point. Man, I'm harshing my own mellow here.
JPK
Thank you for that explanation, Susinok! And now I'm reminded of a line in a song from the late 90s: 'You're twisting my melon, man'. I thought I'd better check what that meant before I listed it, and apparently it means: To be really confused by something to the point that it's annoying you. Not what I'd thought! I'd thought it somehow meant 'you're really winding mr up, annoying me'. The joys of language!
'You're twisting my melon, man'.Not to be confused with "Squeeze my lemon..." (second line is "let the juice run down my leg". From a Blues song written by Willie Dixon but made famous by Led Zeppelin.
Josh wrote: "I have never gone in for that nasty chemical enhancement stuff."We know that, which is why we refer to you as "Buzzkill" or "the Harsher" when you're away. :-D
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True, that. Working in another publishing realm is pretty much starting from scratch. Unless we're talking mainstream romance. But even that is tricky.
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:-D
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I love it! Being on this group has expanded m..."
I wrote "persnickety" to someone this morning.
Mod
I don't think it would be a disadvantage. First of all, publishing experience is all to the good. And secondly, even if you don't bring an audience with you, it certainly can't do you harm to have publishing credits.
Yes, publishers do vary widely in what they believe to be good promotion and marketing ideas. That said, I've always given away however many books I felt like giving and I've always posted however many excerpts -- and of whatever length -- I felt like posting. No one's ever said a word. It would be a pointless battle for them really.
Mod
We know that, which is why we refer to you as "Buzzkill" or "the Harsher" when you're away. :-D"
Sorry? I can't hear you over my guzzling of cleaning fluid.
Hj wrote: "Susinok - I've never heard that song!"The song is called "You Shook Me" by Willie Dixon and J.B. Lenior. Third song on Led Zeppelin (called Led Zeppelin One).
Youtube is down right now or I would link it.
Josh wrote: "JP wrote: "Jordan wrote: "But now here's my question, if you're new to a genre, the typical readers of that genre might never have heard of you before. I would think for the first few books, it wou..."Thanks, Josh. That's encouraging to hear.
JPK
Whoops, I was wrong! You Shook Me does not have the squeeze my lemon lyric. It's another, Many of Robert Johnson's lyrics from Traveling Riverside Blues were used in a Led Zeppelin Tune called "The Lemon Song".Lyrics here:
http://www.zharth.net/roots/lzii/lzii...
Song here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7mhC...
And You Shook Me here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTdSC...
I have heard, but I don't know if it is true or not, that very early on Led Zeppelin did not give Dixon or Johnson credit on the liner notes. They were lifting old American blues songs almost 100% and reinventing them.
Susinok wrote: "Whoops, I was wrong! You Shook Me does not have the squeeze my lemon lyric. It's another, Many of Robert Johnson's lyrics from Traveling Riverside Blues were used in a Led Zeppelin Tune called "The..."That would suck if it's true. Those men are legends. My favorite Dixon song is "Hoochie Coochie Man" -- not as it's performed by Muddy Waters (the most well-known version) but by Howlin' Wolf, on his electric-guitar album. (I know that seems sacrilegious, but it's an incredible record and one of my most beloved vinyl discs. The "Smokestack Lightning" cut is awesome too.)
Josh - I love the fact that you wrote "persnickety" to someone! I hope it wasn't an editor?
Susinok - thanks for that information! When I Googled I saw that someone sued Led Zep over the copyright of the Lemon Song. They settled the case, but money changed hands. I think quite a few early rockers "borrowed" blues numbers.
K.Z. wrote: "Those men are legends."What she said!
Hj wrote: "Josh - I love the fact that you wrote "persnickety" to someone! I hope it wasn't an editor?"I finally went and looked it up and it means something totally different than I thought! It's one of those words that obviously I can't guess the meaning from context... I was always thinking of parsnips when "persnickety" turned up and maybe that's the attitude you get after eating too much of them...
Josh wrote: "Anne wrote: "Susinok wrote: "I know. More than you wanted to know about the phrase. But is is very useful. Seem something The Dude would say on The Big Lembowski."I love it! Being on this group h..."
Persnickety - excellent word :):)
I didn't mean to harsh anyone's mellow. (Such a great expression - thanks for the explanation, susinok!) I meant it with the greatest of affection :)
Josh wrote: "Tamara wrote: "Josh wrote: "Tamara wrote: "Lou wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Josh wrote: " Having to hold to a deadline kept me steadily producing chapters to the Haunted Heart, but I didn't enjoy having ..."
I imagine mystery is the toughest genre in which to write. Constructing a complex puzzle for every book and finding the balance between giving the reader too few clues and too many--damn. It's intimidating.
That's one genre I've never really wanted to tackle.
I imagine mystery is the toughest genre in which to write. Constructing a complex puzzle for every book and finding the balance between giving the reader too few clues and too many--damn. It's intimidating.
That's one genre I've never really wanted to tackle.
The genre I've loved the longest, horror, is the one that intimidates me as a writer. I have a paralyzing reverence for authors who've mastered the art of telling a scary story.Weaving precisely the right atmosphere, then sustaining a sense of foreboding until the sheer creepiness of it all worms its way into the reader's pores and chews at nerve endings . . . now that requires a special talent. The opening paragraph alone of The Haunting of Hill House, or the first chapter of The Pines, or the ending of The Monkey's Paw is a mini-masterpiece.
Mod
No. I was confessing to a friend my own increasingly persnickety attitudes. ;-D
I like persnickety. A British term I love is "fiddly bits."I was reading Capture & Surrender last weekend and I considered that not many people in the US use the term "affronted". I like "affronted".
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I'm sure this depends a lot on the author, but I'm finding it difficult to read along with the narrator of my current book.
What do other readers think?
For me, the narrator must remain absolutely true to the text. Indeed, it never occurred to me that anyone could think it acceptable if he does not! Of course everyone makes the odd mistake, but the implication that a narrator might deliberately change the text alarms me.
Mod
I was reading Capture & Surrender last weekend and I considered that not many people in the US use the term "affronted". I like "affront..."
I am FREQUENTLY affronted. The word might have been created for my exclusive use! :-D
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I'm sure this depends a l..."
Hmmm. Well, I admit I do not ever read along with the text. To me that defeats the purpose of audio.
That said, when I was bitching about ACX and Audible choosing to whispersync books and not give authors a say in the process, I had a number of non-native English speakers contact me and say they did read along with the text and the text was very useful to them in following the narration.
Which makes me extremely nervous given that I have started lightly re-editing (yes, yes! I know!!!) the print versions of some of these stories.
It's just impossible for me to leave them alone. Especially when I hear stuff that's off or wrong. Loose Id's copyeditors have never focused on word echo and repetition and those books are RIDDLED with that. And you really hear it when the book is read aloud.
Anyway (before I go off on a rant) I've been tampering with the text (as is my wont) pretty extensively in the Dangerous Ground novels (which are about to be redone yet again in print -- this time making them more affordable) and your words made my blood run cold.
Chilly.
Cold.
(Hmm. I've used cold 110 times already...)
Icy.
Cold.
(And so you see my process.) :-D
Our genre is badly crowded and our readership has been all but strip-mined. You have to bring your best game from the start. No short cuts, no thinking this is "good enough." Hi Josh - "strip-mined" caught me like a carpenter nail in the eye socket. It does imply we're destroying our own eco-system ("scorched land" kinda approach) - is that what you mean, or is it a metaphor that caught me in the wrong way?
Regarding over-crowding, my theory is that m/m is "normalising" - essentially, it's becoming a genre like any other, which includes, as you say, HAVING to bring your A game, because essentially gay sex is no longer enough to sell a book or even build any kind of momentum.
If the normalisation theory is correct, then it would behoove us to look into the wider indie space - where the "overcrowding" complaint is currently the loudest (aka "the tsunami of shit" theory).
And regarding your decrease in sales - I've been thinking about that, too, and wonder how much frontlist titles sell backlist. In my book and experience, they do. Essentially, the more frontlist I release, the better my backlist sells, so releases feed sales. So, if that is a rule/mechanism, I'm not surprised if your "time out" created the drop-off in backlist sales.
But I'm honestly curious and try to accumulate data to get my bearings and be able to answer questions people ask me about the wider genre/industry, so I'm not sniping, I'm just curious and building theories.
ETA: Jesus, nobody would mistake me for a corporate coy-editor. I fixed typos. Lots of them.
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This is a very interesting discussion because I've got a number of audio books in production right now. Usually when a narrator misses a word, they substitute with the wrong word. But when the narrator of the Dangerous Ground books occasionally misses or inserts or changes a word, it almost never alters meaning. That's actually quite rare, and I never bother to correct those. He's got a very natural narrative flow, and I think going back to punch in the exact word would actually disrupt that.
And his flubs are pretty rare -- largely, I suspect, because he's read each scene ahead of time and he knows and understands what's happening. It makes him better able to cover any stumbles.
It's just impossible for me to leave them alone. Especially when I hear stuff that's off or wrong. Loose Id's copyeditors have never focused on word echo and repetition and those books are RIDDLED with that. And you really hear it when the book is read aloud. Best self-editing tip I ever got was "read your shit aloud AND CRINGE". I effing hate rhymes. I even hate too many of the same vowels/consonates in the same sentence or paragraph.
But yeah, listening to The Lion of Kent or Dark Edge of Honor, my only two audiobooks, makes me want to break out every red pen I own and USE THEM.
Aleksandr - I'm still laughing about this glorious error: "Jesus, nobody would mistake me for a corporate coy-editor."
Can you see it now??
Josh wrote: "Hj wrote: "For me, the narrator must remain absolutely true to the text. Indeed, it never occurred to me that anyone could think it acceptable if he does not! Of course everyone makes the odd mista..."Josh - I would consider those as the odd mistakes I mentioned. I had the impression from Jordan's original comment that some narrators deliberately change things, and that is what I objected to - maybe I misunderstood her? I agree that punching in the correction would compound the original error, when the narrator has accidentally changed a word which doesn't alter the meaning.
Hj - It's been a long, long week.. :)
Mod
That seems like such a weird idea. Interviewing all these narrators, they seem to have genuine respect for the work and for the author's feelings. It's hard to picture a narrator taking it upon themselves to change something, even if it does make it easier to pronounce or whatever the logic might be?
Aleksandr wrote: "Hj - It's been a long, long week.. :)"Sorry - I just couldn't resist that classic! Plus, somehow I just don't associate the word "coy" with you...
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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Brilliant, isn't it! Is it an Oklahoma expression, or US-wide? For some reason, it reminded me of 'marshmallow' - I'm sure that one could write a good poem using both the phrase and the word as an almost rhyme and an echo.