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The Next Best Book Club discussion
Personal Reading Goals
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Reading Through History
Regarding Bookmarks list of Historical fiction - I've read the following over twenty years ago: Katherine, The Robe, Shogun, Hawaii, Poland, Death comes to the Archishop, Andersonville. More recent is Name of the Rose, a difficult read. They are all classic non-fiction and span the world. I especially recommend Poland because Mitchner is always a good read and it will give you a perspective of Eastern Europe. (Poland was part of Lithuania many years ago)
Oh man this is why I shouldn't go on vacation, (besides it being one on which I was miserably sick) I come back to find myself branded somewhere near pervy. Bah, the poem is kinda pretty ok?, and allegorical, they're fruit juices visually if not symbolically... and I didn't illustrate the incest part. Not even Arthur Rackham could have done that scene justice without raised eyebrows. I don't think one sister licking another "clean" looks age appropriate even in crazy old Victoria's town.On another note, that historical fiction list sounds interesting, I'm off to peruse it.
I've read London and The Princes of Ireland by Rutherford, I have the rest of his on my TBR. I have Hawaii there as well. I love those lengthy sagas! I read Diary of Anne Boleyn (for some reason I feel that might not be its exact title) by Robin Maxwell and it was excellent, so I added her novel about Elizabeth.
I also read Clan of the Cave Bear and agree, I didn't think that was actually considered very accurate, but maybe at the time it was published? Name of the Rose was kinda good, but I got the impression throughout that the super intelligent brilliant ray of deduction character was supposed to be the author and that he was really patting himself on the back and crowing to himself while pointing out his deduction in excess so that the rest of us dumbwitted folks could spot it. I hear the movie is decent.
Ah ha, that's what I thought about Name of the Rose too. I got in a big fight about it with a couple defenders here. Glad someone has my back. :)Huh - so is London worth the time? I want some London history; that might do it. And it sounds like it's accurate?
Pfft, Alex, you make it sound like we were putting cigarettes out on your arms and standing on your neck or something. It wasn't a "big fight"; it was a nice and pleasant debate. I only called you "stupid" like twice. Sheesh. :)I remember my mom reading the Jean Auel books back when I was probably in junior high. She hated them, but she kept reading them because, like me, she needs to know how things end once she's started. Memories of those years include my mother wandering around the house muttering to herself, "What, is she going to invent the washing machine next? How about the lightbulb? Good grief, stupid books..." After that I never had much interest in reading them because I assumed they were the least historically accurate historical fiction out there.
It was a brawl. Like, you ever seen what happens when Vikings and pirates both go to the same bar by accident? It was like that.
I liked "London" by Rutherford and it pointed me to the old wall of London. Othrwise, can't vouch for accuracy.
Yeah Ayla or whatever her name was is quite the Mary Sue. From Horse training and hunting to being the prettiest, cleverest, most spiritual and desirable fur wearing neanderthal raised cave woman everrrr. If you want to drive yourself crazy try one of the audiobooks. Like your mother I feel the need to see the ending of her crazy story and thought maybe it would be easier if I listened to it. It is not easier to listen to a high pitched breathy voice talk about how watching the mammoths mate is making her horny.... even in the privacy of my own home I was blushing and worrying about my neighbors being able to hear through the walls. haha
I think London is supposed to be fairly accurate. Rutherford does a lot of research. I've not felt like I've run up against against anything contradictory to his telling. He focuses a lot on the architecture and other physical changes to the city of London which was fantastic for me.
I might have to check that book out.I just got The Harps That Once...: Sumerian Poetry in Translation! It's big! I have no idea exactly when I'll be able to explore this and the Egyptian poetry collection...but at least I have them. Madeline, maybe I'll read along with you when / if you get to them.
Just flipping through the contents of Harps That Once, it looks like it'd make an awesome companion to Ancient Iraq.
Alex, are you saying that you have to check out the mammoth porn book or the London book? You probably meant the mammoth porn, cause I know your favourite book is Flowers in the Attic. But your post was a little unclear.El, me and your Mom have to get together to console each other for wasting so much time on those terrible books. I had the same problem she did, they kept getting dumber and dumber, but I couldn't stop reading them. And then the stupid author couldn't even be bothered to finish her stupid series...
By the second book the formula is literally half porn and half Ayla inventing stuff. I mean, let one of the other characters invent something once in a while.
Clan of the Cave bear was pretty good. But the rest of them could be used as toilet paper in a pinch.
mammoth porn book"And now I'm involuntarily having traumatic flashbacks to Bear. I kid you not - the word "cartilaginous sheath" came up in that book. Perhaps more than once. There was sex with a bear involved.
Sorry, that's off-topic. But it sounds like Ayla would be down with a bit of bestiality like that.
From the first reader review of Bear: i am now prepared for the customer/patron question: "do y'all have any books where a bear goes down on a lady??"
You people are into some weird shit.
That karen chick who wrote that review of Bear is awesome. I've read a lot of her reviews but am too shy to "follow" her or "friend" her.And hey, don't knock it till you've tried it. Erm, no wait. That's not what I meant. Um. Goblin Market!
Please, let's go back to your Sumerian poetry book. That sounds interesting and not at all dirty.
From her review of World War Z: "this book is about zombies the same way the bible is about god. they are mostly background actors who are the reason other characters do what they do and occasionally they will rarrrr in and kill a bunch of people because they cant help it"Lol.
I'd be more psyched about her if she used capitalization or punctuation though.
Wheeeeew! I spend two days away, and look at the topics we've covered: mammoth porn book, bears, and zombies. Goodness!I got a little confused through here, but I think I figured it out. "London" does sound interesting. Added it to my TBR pile. And I'm so glad that I did not add Bears. Sounds frustrating to have wasted time on a bad book. My mom recently finished such a book. She was muttering, "WHAT? You made the police force lunch after a MURDER? Stupid....." But she wanted to know the ending. She was so mad because the character she was interested about - the author did not give any info. So frustrating that way.
Wait.. the bear is her brother?! Is that what that Karen woman was saying? Wow that's new. Incestual beastiality...Anyways about those Sumerians.
I'll be starting the Sumeria set sometime this month I hope. I unexpectedly received giveaways that I want to read and review first. I'm really more interested in Sumeria though. Am kinda impatient to get started.
I hate when I get free books. Doesn't the universe understand that I'm on a Strict Schedule?Lemme know, Madeline. I'll join you for the poetry.
Well I'm not too shy to follow Karen's kick ass reviews. Those are pretty entertaining stuff! And El, she has over 800 friends so I'm betting if you hit add friend she's going to accept...just a guess.
I'm finally getting started with Gilgamesh. I'm not sure about my version... its old. So I might find myself reading another one, but for now it's what I've got.
Hey Madeline, saw your question over on that other thread. Stephen Mitchell's translation is from 2004 and includes a 65-page introduction that's quite good but also chock full of spoilers. As to whether or not opinions have changed since the 70s...I don't know for sure, but I bet they have. I feel like interpretations of works change with the culture, so the way Gilgamesh was looked at in the 70s might now seem weirdly old-fashioned.
Honestly, yeah, I would go to a library or bookstore and flip through Mitchell's, see if it feels better to you. Translation can make or break a work for you and it would be an awful shame if the oldest book in the world failed for you just 'cause the translation was stiff.
Oh...and here's where I'm at right now:Backtracked a touch to the 13th century because it was the Theme in the Bookish club, so I read 1215: The Year of Magna Carta and The Prose Edda. They were both cool, particularly the Edda, which is Norse myths and stuff. Bad ass.
And now I'm in the 1400s with a project I'm super stoked about: reading Shakespeare's English Kings: History, Chronicle, and Drama while re-reading each of Shakespeare's histories. Saccio's book will tell me which parts are accurate and which the old man is messing with. I've just started, but it's a gang of fun so far.
Good advice, I'll look into it. Translation/interpretation seems to be the most important factor in these works. The Prose Edda looks awesome! I'll have to add it to my timeline. Ooooh Saccio's book looks shiny, I've only read two of the histories, Henry V and Richard III, the latter is one of my favorites. That's a fantastic way of going about it. I'm envious, English monarchy (well monarchy in general, I've just read more about the English variant.) is one of my favorite historical subjects next to ancient civilizations.
Like with all long term projects I'm only just starting and I'm already chomping at the bit to be farther along.
Ah, don't chomp! I love the early stuff. It gets harder as history goes along; more has survived, more is known, it's a little daunting. I'm jealous of you that you get to hang out way back then.And yeah, I think translation is all-important. These early works are so weird and hard that they can be translated in infinite ways; if translators try hard enough, they can even make them kinda crappy.
I'm buried in the second part of Henry IV right now, and finally (with Saccio's help) really appreciating the fact that all four of these plays - Richard II, the two parts of Henry IV, and Henry V - knit together into one huge story. I get them more than I did in college.
This is one of Shakespeare's history "tetralogies"; the other, written earlier but set directly after Henry V, includes the three parts of Henry VI, and Richard III. Henry VI kinda sucks - wicked early Shakespeare - but it's safe to say he had his shit together by Richard III.
And there are two orphans - King John, set around 1215, 150 years before the earliest of the other histories, and Henry VIII, which was too recent (Shakespeare wrote under his daughter Elizabeth) and therefore a crappy whitewash.
I get more intimidated the later I get. It gets harder to decide what to read. There are like a thousand books about the Renaissance, y'know?
Reading Bible and Sword: England and Palestine from the Bronze Age to Balfour I've read through the years of the Crusades. I learned of the long relationship Britain had with Palestine from the first prilgrimage of Joseph of Aramathea up to the Balfour document in 1918-1919.
Whoa, Natalie. That sounds really interesting. Are you digging it?
Alex - I didn't realize they were meant to knit together. That would make for an entirely different reading. I imagine Henry VIII would suck. Not removed enough to be impartial. I imagine it would have been pretty bad ass if he'd been allowed free reign. Natalie - that does sounds interesting. Is it good writing as well as good subject matter? If so it will have to go on my tbr list, I bet my husband would read it also (not all that common lol).
Yeah, pretty cool huh? And they feel like a whole - like Shakespeare knew what he was getting into and meant to write this epic story. That dude, man...he's good at writing.And hey, Natalie, weren't you on a cruise? Welcome back, belatedly; how was it?
That's right! Natalie how was the Cruise?! Probably awesome... sigh I need a vacation. Not til November.
Natalie, that does sound interesting. I'm jealous, Madeline, I was in line to get my copy of Gilgamesh through goodreads swap, and then I didn't receive it. Bummer. Now I'm super broke and in the middle of a move. Last thing i need is more books. But yah for a new job and more money to buy more books. Because you guys just keep the recommendations coming. My TBR shelf is going to be broken before I even make a dent in it. :)
Ooh maybe I should check the swap. Thank Hannah :), I reserved a copy at the library (I'm on a full price spending freeze lol) but I would love to have my own copy. Congrats on the new job! Its my turn to be envious. I desperately want a new job, preferably one that includes moving somewhere new. I need an adventure!
I picked up Gilgamesh from the library, and finally started it today. I'm kind of slow with the reading lately. I don't know if its the season or what but reading is not happening for me the last couple weeks. The intro is getting me interested, well written so far. I really like the way he described the relationship between Gilgamesh and Enkidu, they complete each other awww. haha. Also the clarification of the priestess' role in society is very cool. Good insight so far. If the exerpt of the description of the city and the cornerstone with the copper box is any indicator of the quality of the epic I think its going to be excellent.
Just going through the footnotes now, but finished with the epic. It was very good. So much better than I was expecting. Is it just me or does it almost feel more mature than later epics? (SPOILERS!)I feel like Gilgamesh had this gamut of experience and emotional growth in order to become a true ruler of man instead of a 3/4 god king. That Enkidu, instead of being the answer to the peoples prayers was merely the catalyst for Gilgamesh. Left me with a lot to consider. The immortal was fascinating! After telling his story I felt like he was almost mocking Gilgamesh. Saying What have you done to deserve immortality that can compare with what I had to endure? A slap in the face, and one Gilgamesh needed I think. His cries about death comes off as petulant after that. I liked how they were forced to face the consequences of their actions, and the humanity, stunning to think how little we've changed.
If this is lacking in the sense its because I'm coming off of four hours of sleep and a 12 hour shift. @.@
I agree, Gilgamesh is surprisingly psychologically complicated. I went into it thinking it would be sortof crude, because it's all old and stuff, but it turns out there's quite a lot going in there.As far as more mature than later epics, though, when I re-read those - I assume you're talking about Homer and Virgil - I found them more complicated than I expected as well. My memories from high school were that they were sortof great thudding swordfights, particularly the Iliad...but no, they also have a lot of stuff going on under the surface. Particularly the Odyssey.
And yes, I agree that the immortal was giving Gilgamesh a bit of a much-needed bitch slap.
Fascinating seeing the flood myth in one of its earliest forms, isn't it?
And what's next for you?
I took a break from the Shakespeare project because I was traveling for the past couple weeks and couldn't lug all the Riverside Shakespeare tome with me; back into it now with the daunting Henry VI trilogy.
Hey, Alex. I just picked up a book yesterday from Barnes and Noble (clearance section, 75% off) that you'd probably be interested in: The Stranger in Shakespeare.It'll be a while before I can start it but I'm particularly excited about the chapter on New World savages as strangers. Caliban's one of my favorite characters in all literature, so I'm curious to see what Fiedler says about him. I hear this Fiedler guy is pretty awesome. I once picked up his Love and Death in the American Novel from the library but never did get to read it before I had to return it.
Sorry, a little off-topic but you mentioned Shakespeare, so.
Huh. Very interesting idea. Can't find much in the way of reviews for it - I guess it's a pretty obscure one - but I like the thesis, I'm obsessed with Caliban, and I'm going to see Othello next week, so it's got a lot to recommend it.Cool that you're a Caliban fan too! It was Caliban on Setebos that really did it for me. I really like that poem.
I expected the same thing, something more crude. I kinda fell in love with it. I think I'm going to do a Gilgamesh children's book... minus the homoerotic brotherly love and oversexed priestess (whose occupation is actually fascinating), something tells me I might have a difficult selling point with those elements, but this story has so many scenes that scream out to be illustrated. Maybe I'll do a comic book instead. I think I'm going to read Inanna, Lady of Largest Heart : Poems of the Sumerian High Priestess Enheduanna, because the library has it and I want to continue with the literature before I start the non fictional element. I'm going to have to buy The Harps That Once . . .: Sumerian Poetry in Translation although I might see if the library will buy it for me. I'm trying not to buy any more books this summer. v_v
The Shakespeare talk is making me twitchy! I'll never make it to the 1500's haha, although I love the ancient so I guess I'm ok where I am for now.
Well, I'm taking another break from Shakespeare because a bunch of stuff involving peer pressure and personal weakness happened and suddenly I'm reading a book about bugs. It's all this site's fault.But hey, as long as I'm overcomitting myself, I'll try to read some Inanna along with you!
I LOVE the idea of a children's version of Gilgamesh. Or a comic version. There are enough things to cover in there without the super-interesting but sortof weird sex priestess and the homoerotic relationship to make it awesome. (I mean, not that a sex- and gay-positive version wouldn't also be great, but...well, America may not be ready.)
For me, the emotional center of the poem is Gilgamesh and Enkil's fight with Humbaba, and the lesson that there was nothing wrong with Humbaba, he just wants to be left alone, and the two heroes kill him out of overweening pride.
Apropros of not a whole lot, you know what epic poem isn't surprisingly complicated? Beowulf. That's not a very deep poem.
Cool I'd love company on Inanna, I'll probably start it next week, when I can make my way to the library again. For now I'm reading a book on the history of human attempt to achieve immortality. It's funny actually. Bizarre and interesting too. Gilgamesh is kinda the forerunner of this occupation.I've heard that about Beowulf. Sort of to the point good vs. evil no room for subtleties kind of story. It's one that I haven't yet read, but plan to.
It would be nice to do a sex/gay positive version but unlikely to be published. That's ok, sometimes it's enough to imply things in a childrens book without spelling it out for them.... like Goblins Market haha.
Ooh, is that...um...that recently-published book about that crazy guy? I've read some reviews of whatever I'm talking about.I can't take on Inanna this month; I'm (ridiculously) trying to read Shakespeare and a deadly-technical book about ants at the same time, and I'm in way over my head. If you can hang on for 3-4 weeks, I would love to. Otherwise I'll catch up. :)
I love Beowulf because I'm so impressed with the technical constraints that the writer had. That and Gawain and the Green Knight are masterpieces in their use of alliteration. As much as we see Shakespeare as a master of iambic pentameter, these dudes are doing something amazing in a different way. And you usually get their original lines next to the translation, because it's close enough for you to almost get it. Wonderful work. But yeah, not psychologically complicated. (Green Knight is subtler. Beowulf is one of my favorites, but for me, anyway, it's kindof a thudding thing.)
The book is Long for This World: The Strange Science of Immortality I got it as a first read. I don't know if the guy is crazy, maybe the man the author has alluded to doing the most current research? So far it's just been surmising the different theories that have been proffered throughout the history of the search. At this point merely informative and kinda fascinating, injections of chimp sperm among the most bizarre. It really is an occupation steeped in rich history! They bring up Gilgamesh and Alchemy, Methusalah etc. Beowulf has always been on my list, I dig the culture of that area/era. Green Knight has only recently come to my attention, like within the last year or so, but I'll get to it.
I might start Inanna without you, but who knows. I've been reading like a snail lately. My mind has been full with other occupations.
Yep, that's the book I was thinking of. I'm more interested in it now that you've told me it deals with historical ideas of immortality. Beowulf and Green Knight are a ways off, but I think they're both well worth reading. I love 'em.
Here's my syllabus for the Italian Renaissance, ~1400 - 1527:- Civilization: A New History of the Western World, Chapter 8 ("Art as Civilization")
- The House of Medici: Its Rise and Fall
- The Prince, tr. Tim Parks
- Brunelleschi's Dome: How a Renaissance Genius Reinvented Architecture
- The Scientists: A History of Science Told Through the Lives of Its Greatest Inventors, chapters 1 - 3 (covering Copernicus, Galileo and a bunch of other dudes)
- Michelangelo: The Artist, the Man and his Times
- Galileo in Rome: The Rise and Fall of a Troublesome Genius
The Italian Renaissance is a funny one because there's sortof a dearth of classic literature written during the period; you'll note that the only classic there is Machiavelli. To give myself a break from all those history books, I'm going to tackle Don Quixote right in the middle; hopefully it won't totally throw me off course.
Madeline, did you ever start Inanna? I totally forgot to follow up on that.
Alex,I was at B&N this past weekend and stumbled across "The Scientists." I managed to avoid it as I looked it up on the Amazon.com app and saw that B&N wanted almost twice as much as I could get it delivered for. (B&N's prices always amaze me) Anyhow, I came home and ordered it and it should be getting delivered to me today or tomorrow. I'm very excited. Could you post a review of "Brunelleschi's Dome" when you're done with it? It looks like it has the potential to be a great book.
Kristopher
Hi Kristopher,Yeah, I ordered Scientists used off Amazon for like $8 after shipping (as with everything else I can't get on Kindle). I flipped through the intro when it arrived and thought it was off to a promising start.
Will certainly let you know how Brunelleschi works out. It's fun so far.
Nice. Looking forward to the update. I hate to say it, but it's often hard to justify going to a brick and mortar bookstore now when you can order so much more cheaply online. I often go to bookstores simply so I can look through the books and see if I'm going to like them, then order the ones I'm interested in from Amazon.com. I will buy if it's a smaller bookstore, but am not that concerned about B&n's well-being…lol. Kristopher
I use bookstores to browse, too, especially when I'm deciding between translations. Very useful to read the first few pages of several translations, and Amazon's "Read the beginning" feature isn't there for all books. After that, I often call my favorite used local bookstore to see if they have it in stock. But they kinda never do. Buying used off Amazon is my next-best thing. I do try to look for sellers without too many transactions. You see some sellers with, like, 10,000 transactions last month; I figure those are weird warehouses somewhere that don't really count as "local business." I prefer when it's just, like, some chick who graduated college last month and is totally broke so she's selling off four textbooks from her least favorite courses. It'll take nineteen weeks to arrive because she's not very responsible, but whatever.
I do try to use sellers without too many transactions as well, Alex. It's funny that this comes up now, as I just got finished filing a complaint with Amazon for the first time in 3+ years of regular orders. I contacted this seller 4 times about my order and finally filed a complaint with them after more than a month had gone by with no communication and no package. Thankfully this seems to be a very isolated incident.Kristopher
Well, that was quick: already finished Brunelleschi's Dome, thanks to my boss closing the office at noon because it's so nice out. Been sitting on the porch all afternoon with my dog, my book and my iced coffee. My review is here; it's not too in depth because I didn't have too much to say about it. It was pleasant. It's barely a pamphlet, really. Certainly worth the few hours it'll take to read it.
The Next Best Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Michelangelo: The Artist, the Man and his Times (other topics)The Prince (other topics)
Galileo in Rome: The Rise and Fall of a Troublesome Genius (other topics)
Brunelleschi's Dome: How a Renaissance Genius Reinvented Architecture (other topics)
The Scientists: A History of Science Told Through the Lives of Its Greatest Inventors (other topics)
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I've read Gates of Fire, which is a ton of fun - gripping - and Name of the Rose, which is historically accurate. I'll try a couple of these. Bookmarked it.