Paranormal Romance & Urban Fantasy discussion
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What was your limit?
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Loren (lolace the case)
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May 13, 2010 07:16AM
In this genre there's sex, violence and lots of it. So was there ever a book or a scene in a book that you couldn't seem to read or stomach?
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When there was, it was because the book was grossly mislabeled. It was touted as an erotic romance, but it was straight-up erotica...riding the edges of porn. I don't mind erotica...or porn, if I know that's what I'm getting, but...I choose when I buy something like that, and I want what it's labeled as being, at all times.In this book (which I won't name, because it's not the author's fault this happened, and I cringe at the idea of her book getting a bad name for it...the NEW publisher has it labeled correctly), the "hero" beats, imprisons, and publicly humiliates the "heroine." Mind you, it wasn't BDSM and it wasn't consensual play of any sort. But...he loves her, so that's okay, and the publisher called it erom? Oy! Your average romance audience is NOT going to accept that as romantic.
There is a minimum I expect in something called "romance." If you tell me it's dark romance, I still expect certain minimums. What she had wasn't even properly dark romance. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. NEVER lie to or mislead the reader. Never hack off the reader, if you can avoid it.
Brenna
Agreed. Like you said I like erotica, oh so much lol. Yet open minded as I am I find sometimes that what turns the author on doesn't necessarily turn me on. I really don't think erotica is porn, it's way too stylized and to me imagination sometimes works better than watching a dvd.
The reason why I say that it was borderline porn is that my personal rule of thumb is a modicum of respect and concern between erotic couples. If there is a decided lack of that respect and concern, it slips into porn for me...just sex for the sake of sex/adventure/whatever purpose. Yes, the "hero" had feelings for her, but his actions showed a decided lack of respect for her...and sometimes concern. I find it hard not to classify that as porn.Brenna
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Actually, there is NY romance author that I stopped reading when not one but THREE of her heroes had raped their heroines. I really think she needs an education in noncon.Brenna
Brenna wrote: "Actually, there is NY romance author that I stopped reading when not one but THREE of her heroes had raped their heroines. I really think she needs an education in noncon.Brenna"
Umm who's the author Brenna?
I draw the line a bestiality. I like shifter books but when they go at it in animal form then human form that is just to much for me. Call me a prude but I just cannot deal with that. I also hate the sexual dominance thing. To show you how much I love you I am going to F*&k you silly. Wow really that is also a turn off and I typically cannot read those series either.
@Brenna I agree with you about hero raping the heroine that is a no go and there is one author who seems to do it in every book and people love her. Weird
@RNDo Claudia Dain. I used to love her books, and she has a huge audience...more power to her for it, but I can't be one of them anymore. I found one that had it...then two... By the time I hit the third, enough of that crap. I stopped reading her books, cold turkey. I don't like rape, under the best of circumstances, though I have used rape (presented as rape) in a few of my books, because it was necessary to the story. The men were heroic villains at best and villains at worst.
But the whole "she's not willing and he knows it, but he's going to do it anyway, and they'll love each other later" routine? Not romance in my book. I just can't go there. Loving a man that raped you may have been popular for Luke and Laura, but I didn't even buy it then. That's one of my lines.
Brenna
Let's see if I can remember the books that set me off...The Marriage Bed
The Holding
I can't remember the third that set me off, but there was a third.
Brenna
Brenna, quick question or two. When you say that you use rape in your books, do you mean you describe the rape or actually have rape? And, I'm sorry to ask but whenever is rape good or justified?
No books have really crossed my limits yet, but I'm sure there's something. Beastiality would gross me out and anything involving child abuse. Also, poor hygiene, LOL.
I never said it was good or justified, which is why I don't call the men involved heroes. It was important to the story in a couple of stories to have a rape as part of the story. Not the same thing as it being good or justified; it was decidedly negative, in every case. In one book, the scene was described in a bit of detail...on screen, if you want to think of it that way, mainly because the set-up was the hero reliving his heroine's experience through sort of a psychic link. It's traumatic for him (not as traumatic as it was for her, of course), especially because he comes from a world without these sorts of abuses. There were portions skipped over, because the focus switches from his thoughts to what he's seeing and back again, during the scene. The rapist in the scene is not the hero, of course. It's a villain...and a second villain tries to rape the heroine in another scene, but he gets stopped before he can. It's part of her backstory. It affects how she reacts to the threat again. And it is something the hero is afraid to see, when the time comes for it, which is a very deep internal conflict.
In another book, the rape is very loosely described from the standpoint of how both the man and the woman remember it (in different scenes and off screen). And neither of them wants to think about it in detail, so it's not a lot of detail. He was insane when it happened (and never really recovered from that...I make it clear that he's insane for the rest of the books about him). He's the one I call a heroic villain. He does some really good things...or does something good in horrific ways, but he also does things that give himself and everyone around him nightmares. He's not a nice guy and doesn't promise to be one. It's a conflict for the hero vs. the rapist, since it's an unforgivable act...and because the heroine loved the rapist and even tried to forgive him what he did, because she knew he was insane and why he was (she was young, confused, and justifying for him), but he just kept betraying her. It's a conflict for the hero and heroine, though it happened in her past, because she finds it hard to anticipate what the hero is going to do and trust him. And it's an internal conflict, because...well, that's a world thing that I would spoil by revealing it.
In the final one I can remember that includes a rape, it was a villain that the heroine killed off within the first few pages of the book. It's not only off screen, it's only described in her words to the hero, when he finally asks if what he suspects is true.
Brenna
Oh Brenna, I knew the minute I set out I was going to get yelled and rightly so. OK, now I understand what you mean. I hate it when authors think that rape is OK to put in books because it can always be explained. I work with Blue (cops) so I hear stories all the time and have been pictures in police text books. One of my favorite authors, Shirlee Busbee used rape twice in her first two books and I thought I would be sick. I very much appreciate your time to explain.
Oh, I'm not yelling at you. I'm explaining. I'd rather people know going in what to expect, which is why I have a rating scale on my site. I don't use rape often, but when I do, it's not pretty.Brenna
I was going to read a book-said book will remain nameless to protect the innocent-anyway it looked interesting. I was warned that it was dark and gritty,and the heroine was a succubus which is a subject matter I've read about in the past. I was just about to order it, when I happened on a review. The review went over the plot, and explained how the succubi and incubi harvest ppl's souls which come out in their BODILY FLUIDS, any BODILY FLUIDS. Yes, you read that right-bodily fluids. The heroine didn't put it in a collection cup, ohhh no no- you see she had to drink it. Afterwards our lucky lady got to regurgitate it into special traps. Sexy. Needless to say I found that was one line in the sand that I was not going to cross with a ten foot pole.
Brenna, I hear ya! That makes sense and I will breath a sigh of relief..Crystal, yeah, I wouldn't touch that one with a ten foot or 1 million foot pole! That is just too much to process..
Crystal wrote: "I was going to read a book-said book will remain nameless to protect the innocent-anyway it looked interesting. I was warned that it was dark and gritty,and the heroine was a succubus which is a su..."gross, i wouldnt read it but you still have to say its very unique lol
LOL. That was a little gross with the regurgitation. I know what you're talking about. But it was maybe five lines out of the whole book. The whole book was about sex though- and I mean in a non-erotic way. :/ Got a little tedious.
When I read that part of the review I think my eyeballs exploded. Why, why is that necessary. Why would anyone go there?! That whole think is like adding insult to injury. :{
Anything super kinky. I don't mind love scenes in a book, but i am somebody who likes her romance straight up so to speak. One man, one woman and no other players. And needless to say rape, incest, child abuse, or bestiality being presented as anything other than bad, does not fly with me. I remember this one book by Delilah Devlin, it was vamp romance and i wanted to read it. But after reading reviews and finding out that apparently the hero's brothers or comrades, whoever they where had sex with the heroine mark her or something. I was like no. I know there's something similar in the Lords of Satyr books too. That kind of plot element is enough to make me go screaming in the other direction. Cheating is cheating and it's wrong. Stuff like that is why i more or less avoid erotic romance completely, unless i know for a fact that there's nothing that crosses any of my lines.
Yes this book was HORRIBLE it is actually by Anne RiceThe Claiming of Sleeping Beauty. She has a whole set of them and yuck.
Kyrie wrote: "Toni wrote: "Yes this book was HORRIBLE it is actually by Anne RiceThe Claiming of Sleeping Beauty. She has a whole set of them and yuck."Yes! I quit after about four pages! It ..."
She wrote them under a different pen name, and basically it's like S&M porn. Once I knew what I had (don't remember where I found it), I got rid of it - FAST! I didn't even bother to read any of them. It's a set of 3 books.
I don't think there is anything that I have not been able to get through. There was one very graphic fisting M/M scene with some tearing that has left a permanent scar on my brain. I don't like bestiality scenes. And medical procedures for sexual gratification just turns my stomach a bit as well. I read all three of the Sleeping Beauty books and didn't really have a problem with them. Fairly standard BDSM fantasy, heavy on the dominant/submissive angle. Not really my cup of tea, but they were a gift so of course I read them.
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Photojim wrote: "There was one very graphic fisting M/M scene with some tearing that has left a permanent scar on my brain. "OMG that's disgusting. I didn't read it and I think there's scarring on my brain!
I haven't tried to read anything with bestiality, but that would squick me out. I did read a short story, though, by someone named Sunny where they were were-beings... the "heroine" ended up messing around with a guy who was sort of half-transitioned. That was a bit freaky to me.
The other thing is incest. I've read a few erotica books, so my "recommendations" on Amazon sometimes include more erotica. If I go to the synopsis and/or tags and see anything about incest, it's a no-go. I realize some people may find that hot (obviously people write about it), but that's one of my personal black/white issues. One of the books I read included a part where a young man watched his sister having sex and then pleasured himself with her underwear later. That was *really* close to my line. Thankfully, they never actually touched (and sister didn't have a clue about it) or my reading would have ended right there.
Reading about multiple partners doesn't really bother me. I wouldn't choose to read a m/m story line because it's just not my thing. And I don't mind D/s too much as long as it's respectful and consensual. Forcing does not seem sexy to me. So rape would be out of the picture.
In one of the Mercy Thompson books, she's magically coerced into sex with someone, and I actually cried for her. There weren't many details, but you were reading her thoughts while it was going on... after it was over. It was critical to the story and what happened after, but even reading about it that way was disturbing to me. I can't imagine having more details from either point of view, victim or low-life.
I loved the Anita Blake series, I even made it to book 14, but it seemed to me that at that point the book lost its plot and became all about sex. I haven't been able to pick up another Anita Blake since.
Toni wrote: "Yes this book was HORRIBLE it is actually by Anne RiceThe Claiming of Sleeping Beauty. She has a whole set of them and yuck."Ditto.
"Photojim wrote: "There was one very graphic fisting M/M scene with some tearing that has left a permanent scar on my brain."Heather wrote: "OMG that's disgusting. I didn't read it and I think there's scarring on my brain!"
Ya! Tell me about it. Yuck!
As for my limits, well everyone has pretty much said it all.
I too can not tolerate any form of incest. Heather, if it was me I would have stopped reading that book. I have two kids and just the thought of one of my boys doing that ... ah, I don't even wanna go there.
I once read a Cassie Edwards book many years ago, Portrait of Desire I believe its called. I think it's the only book she has ever written with a white hero and heroine. Hero and heroine met early and fell madly in love, but for some reason the heroine kept on lusting after and later slept with her uncle. Yes, her uncle. She knew it was her uncle too.
It was sick. This is the book that weaned me off of Edwards' books for life.
I guess I'm lucky as I hardly come across rape and child abuse in my readings. And I'm glad because I'm unable to deal with neither.
I love my erotica, but I don't like reading about multiple partners all in one go. Just give me one hero and one heroine and we're good to go. I can barely read M/F/M menages so gang bangs, orgies, anything of the sort is out of the question.
I have tried reading MM and I'm just not able to getting it. I involuntarily try to replace one of the guys with a woman in my head so one day I said why bother? Obviously this is not something for me if that keeps happening.
I've read The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty. That was some pretty hardcore BDSM, a little more than I'm comfortable with.
Davina wrote: "I too can not tolerate any form of incest. Heather, if it was me I would have stopped reading that book. I have two kids and just the thought of one of my boys doing that ... ah, I don't even wanna go there. "I have two boys... as I was reading that book, I was like "No!" and then with the undies, I'm like "Oh, please tell me we're not going there." Shortly after that, he got interested in a different female (unrelated to him, lol) and you didn't hear any more about him really after that. But the fact that it even went that direction was uncomfortable. That book is the reason I read the tags now. Some of the book descriptions are pretty clear that there's incest, but some are a little vague. If the tag says it, though, I'm marking it "not interested" and moving on.
Funny that with m/m you involuntarily picture one of them as a woman. :-) I can't even read that far into it.
I had heard the Anita Blake books were really good to start, but then got progressively "out there". Did I hear correctly that she did the nasty with a werewolf in its wolf form at one point? But she always uses the excuse of the "ardeur" or whatever? (I read one of the short stories and was so completely confused.) Anyhoo... good to know to stay away from the Sleeping Beauty books, too.
@Heather, as far as Anita Blake goes when she did the deed with the werewolf he wasn't in wolf form, he was in "wolf-man" form which is like in the middle-Man shaped but with fur and certain wolf features. The later books are hard for some to swallow-no pun intended. I still read the series and just flip through any parts I'm uncomfortable with. I really like Hamilton's writing style so I'll probably follow the series until the end.
Crystal wrote: "@Heather, as far as Anita Blake goes when she did the deed with the werewolf he wasn't in wolf form, he was in "wolf-man" form which is like in the middle-Man shaped but with fur and certain wolf f..."Hmmm... interesting. So not really a wolf, but not really a man either. Was he mid-change or something?
I found the name of that short story by Sunny. It was called Mona Lisa {something... I could swear it was Awakening, but lots of reviews say Betwining}, and it was part of the On the Prowl anthology. Like I said... the guy was sort of mid-change, so it was weird, but that wasn't the only weird thing about that story, lol. One of the Amazon reviews said it would make Laurell Hamilton blush, lol.
It's a third form that the were's have. The "wolf-man" form is bigger and more imposing than their human form, so I don't think it's really in-between.I have read the Mona Lisa series up until the last one. There are a lot of similarities with LKH, but believe it or not I think she crosses a few lines that even LKH doesn't.
I'm pretty tolerant when I read. I haven't really come across anything that's felt like it's beyond what I can handle although I've never come across anything with child abuse in it - just the thought of that makes me sick. Anything else I may not want to participate in my real life but I don't mind reading about it if it fits within the story. TDF-Pamela, I too was kinda bored by the Sleeping Beauty books.
The one book that I can think of that kinda bothered me was The Story of O and it didn't bother me because of the D/s stuff but more that O was just plain used. She was told that she was loved and appreciated but when her "time was up" she was basically just tossed aside and now she is beyond being able to go back to the way her life was. She completely changed herself - willingly - for the men she loved and thought loved her but in the end she was just alone and damaged. It made me sad to the point of feeling sick to my stomach.
I'm a prude compared to the rest of y'all. lol I stick with m/f heterosexual one-on-one romances. I don't read erotica so not going to run into threesome's, etc. I read regular harlequins and on occasion Desire's (which guarantee heavier and more frequent sex scenes). Bit wierd for me, in PNR, the occassional places that vamps will bite during sex. In one book, a new vamp not able to control her blood lust very much yet bit the guy, you know where, after performing oral sex. That was too much for me, as they described the new vamp dreaming of it being a bloody sausage just before she bit him there. (He was a vamp too, and did survive, after passing out!) I did finish the book as I figured the author wouldn't do it twice in one book, but once was one time too many.
What a fun topic. Briansgirl, that vamp book scene sounds horrible! ouch! I really don't like BDSM in books. I can never get into it. Although I have only read 2 books that briefly touch on the subject. I really want to read Ann Rice's "Sleeping Beauty".
I know there is a lot of controversy over rape scenes. I certainly feel there is a wrongness about them but there is also something about it that is very appealing. When authors use "rape" in their books I really don't feel like it's rape because after the encounter both parties are happily satisfied. I think authors use it more for symbolism.
I recently read a m/f/m erotica and LOVED IT! (please don't judge me) That is my new genre.
Don't mind m/m either. Never read a full book just got a little taste form JR Ward's books.
I think one has to slowly progress into the kinkiness of romance/erotica. I started reading Daniel Steel and Nora Robert books. The thought of reading one of those books now bores me to tears.
LOL, Lisa. I think you're right about slow progress. I think Sarah McCarty and Lora Leigh were my "gateway," LOL.
I'm with you Briansgirl! I'm a bit of a prude too.. I'm a strictly m/f one-to-one romance reader. Some of the paranormal romances reach the limit of non-squickiness for me.I don't read erotica if I can help it (!). I don't like books that just have sex for sex sake (glad I don't have to say that out loud LOL). I do like 'hot' sex scenes but they have to have meaning. Another reason I don't like reading erotica is because of the language used. I really can't stand the c word as a description term nor do I like the whole I'm gonna f*** your brains out attitude. Not my thing.
As for domestic abuse, child abuse, rape etc. these things definitely have to be portrayed as NOT ok and I can only usually tolerate it when it is vital to the storyline (cases in point: Eve Dallas & Mercedes Thompson)... in fact I am a sucker for this 'getting over trauma' premise.
Chrissy wrote: "I loved the Anita Blake series, I even made it to book 14, but it seemed to me that at that point the book lost its plot and became all about sex. I haven't been able to pick up another Anita Blake..."No don't say that!! I'm just starting the series!! is it really that bad???
Hollee,I'm still on the early Anita Blake books as well so I'm not at the later ones yet-will judge when I get there-but the early books are really good and worth reading.My bug-up-the-ass thing is sex for the hell of it at the expense of a plot.I'd rather see good plot/action,well developed characters and maybe a bit of wit or humour than just mindless sex every chapter.
I read Keri Arthur Beneath a Rising Moon and the plot was spoiled for me because the heroine was being bullied into constant sex by the werewolf guy which really grated on my nerves especially when it was making her cry and he didn't care. Then suddenly she loves him? I hate this 'I will bully and humiliate you and you will love me' books.
Hollee, just do yourself a favor. Enjoy the first five or six books. As soon as you've hit your limit, just think, 'And Anita and XXXX lived happily ever after.' and never pick up another one. When AB is a kick-ass investigator/marshal/executioner the books are certainly fun. But somewhere along the lines her legs become like the doors to Wal-Mart (always open and welcoming everyone to come inside).
That's not really true Photojim - her legs are more like a rusted Wal-Mart door. They're reluctant to open at first but once they do get open then the party's inside!She doesn't really enjoy having to have a harem and she resists adding to her harem but once you've made it into the harem then everything's good - as long as the action circles around her and the men don't touch each other or any other female! It is Anita's world after all.
Lisa wrote: "I recently read a m/f/m erotica and LOVED IT! (please don't judge me) That is my new genre. "If I judged you for that it would be like the throwing stones at glass houses thing. :-) It's not something I'd do IRL, but reading about it is hot. R. G. Alexander includes m/f/m and m/m/f in her stories, and some of her books have a paranormal theme. Regina in the Sun was about vampires/werewolves (it was #1 of a series). Wicked Sexy was about magic practitioners.
Photojim... legs become like the doors to Wal-Mart... too funny! :-)
Yes, your description is certainly more apt. Maybe with the use we should be referring to calloused doors. But the 'hey, I just picked up another lover which somehow opened up a new ability in me that will magically solve my problem for this book' gets old.
LibraryLass wrote: "I'm with you Briansgirl! I'm a bit of a prude too.. I'm a strictly m/f one-to-one romance reader. Some of the paranormal romances reach the limit of non-squickiness for me.I don't read erotica ..."
I totally agree with you. Prude here too!
It's not something I'd do IRL, but reading about it is hot.Heather, I totally agree. Wouldn't do it in real life (although my husband jokes about doing a f/m/f..."hahaha in your dreams babe") but it is so hot. I haven't read a m/m/f but I will. Thanks for the suggestions.
What is it about situations in books that are hot and appealing to read but you wouldn't consider doing or finding sexy in real life?
I kind of find m/m a bit sexy but when I watched "Broke Back Mountain" I couldn't stop cringing throughout that movie.
Oh and for all you prudes out there. Never say never. I used to be like you and not like that much sex in my books. After reading a zillion m/f clean romances, you'll want to spice it up too. :-)
Photojim wrote: "Hollee, just do yourself a favor. Enjoy the first five or six books. As soon as you've hit your limit, just think, 'And Anita and XXXX lived happily ever after.' and never pick up another one. W..." And that is why i don't intend to read past maybe book 9. That just grosses me out too much, I'm not huge on really promiscuous heroines.
Lisa, if your interested in a decent m/f/m try Blush by Opal Carew. Or maybe if your just interested in a scene, go with Voyeur by Lacey Alexander.
Lisa wrote: "What is it about situations in books that are hot and appealing to read but you wouldn't consider doing or finding sexy in real life?"What's hot about it I think is how the characters have absolutely no qualms about it and they all want to make sure the others are well taken care of. It's what they want, it's what the other characters want, so everybody's on the same page. In Regina in the Sun, it was more of a voyeur scene that was the menage. The hero and heroine were only with each other, but the heroine watched a scene with different people. And all three who were involved wanted exactly what was happening. The other one, that's just how it was in that society (two men for every female).
I guess I'm not anywhere secure enough to open myself up to a situation like that and actually enjoy it without having some negative feelings during or afterward. Like I said, hot to read about, but we'll just leave it on a page (video doesn't even work the same, oddly). I'll never say never, but knowing myself and my hubby for that matter, it's just not likely to happen. :-)
And Photojim, even though you mentioned them for Lisa, I'll add those to my list, too, so I thank you. I only recently started with the erotica, and it was after reading some of the hotness of the PNR books. Thankfully there are a few lists on Goodreads for guidance, too.
Lisa wrote: "I kind of find m/m a bit sexy but when I watched "Broke Back Mountain" I couldn't stop cringing throughout that movie."LOL, Lisa, I think I'm the complete opposite. I don't seem to mind watching gay relationships unfold on screen. I've seen Brokeback and I really enjoyed it. And I recently saw Valentine's Day and there's a love story in there between Bradley Cooper and Eric Dane's characters. So well done. When everything was revealed I was so "awwwwwwww!". Loved it. Actually, theirs were the best part of the movie, I think.
When it comes to books, however, gay romance is a no go. My imagination just won't wrap itself around it, but when on film, I have no problem believing what is before my eyes. Dunno if that makes any sense but there you have it! lol
And by the way, I didn't know you were a prude if you only read one male, one female erotica. Good grief, considering the life I've lived I'd've never seen myself as a prude! But I am a romantic, I will say that, and at the end of the day the best romance is always between two people, imho. Even the hot, sweaty stuff! :)
Paranormal Romance & Urban Fantasy
Books mentioned in this topic
The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty (other topics)Voyeur (other topics)
Blush (other topics)
Their One and Only (other topics)
Voyeur (other topics)
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