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Question for the Writers in TC
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I've heard a few friends say they like to work on novels on paper or typewriter (old school) to keep from self-editing.I need the computer.
I've tried the jumping around thing and it definitely helps to get past sticky points, but I find that when I do go back to edit, those same points still bog me down. Hence the eternal second draft.
I only ever write non-fiction. (1) Collecting and ordering the data. Big, big job.
(2) Then, I write at the top of a page the words, "what am I trying to say?". I do this for the book as a whole, for each chapter, and for sections within each chapter. This allows me to summarize my entire argument in bulletted points.
(3) The bulletted points are then expanded briefly to introduce and conclude the book / chapter / subsection and also as a skeleton for the body of the text. In general, unless I can summarize my argument in bulletted points, I find that my argument will be muddy and unreadable.
(4) I then write a chapter, or ideally several chapters using these plans.
(5)The problem then arises that new ideas will emerge and existing ideas crumble. Unfortunately, to make even small changes can mess up the structure of the chapter or even the book as a whole. So I will go back and write "what am I trying to say" and get myself a revised plan of the entire book, the chapter or the chapter-section, as appropriate.
(6) Before computers, I used to take scissors and paste physically to chop up and reassemble this first draft to make a second draft. And then on with the third, fourth etc drafts. Somewhere I have a copy of a draft chapter of my PhD dissertation. It is a single unbroken roll composed of thin strips of paper, each pillaged from some earlier draft. Now of course I use the "cut" and "paste" facility on my computer.
(7)When the entire book makes a rough sense, I try to make it readable, and a reasonable length. I strive for brevity, clarity, simplicity etc, and carefully composed sentences and paragraphs. However, I find all of these difficult to acheive.
(6)At the very end (I quote Galbraith), I put in the spontaneity.
(9) I then go away and have a stiff drink.
In doing journalism, I've gotten so accustomed to the thousand-word format that I can just bang out what I want to say, and the text generally ends up about the right length. This works, I think, because I've internalized certain rules regarding how many ideas I can introduce in a short-form article and how the presentation of these ideas should be structured.In writing my book, however, this background was of very little help to me. A 90,000-word piece of writing allows for a fair amount of structural creativity (and mischief).
Like Anthony, I've only done non-fiction, so I'm not sure if my experience will be of any use to you with the novel, but a rough outline indicating how you get from beginning to end can be quite helpful. That said, I wouldn't make it too rigid: ideas tend to work themselves out as you write, and the logic that links one thought to the next will become more apparent once you've committed words to paper.
The best thing about writing is that you can always rewrite. When I work on big projects, my first drafts are usually awful, completely chaotic, unreadable, and embarrassing. But they give me the raw material to press ahead, refine, and rethink what I'm doing.
For what it's worth, I usually write on the computer, then print out to edit the first draft by hand and repeat the process over and over until I'm happy with what I've done.
Good luck, and by all means, follow Anthony's rule #9--sage advice that!
I wrote my dissertation way after the other Anthony, I think, but we have some similarities. I needed long stretches of time to write. I'm not one of those people who can write for ten minutes and then stop. So I was better off with two or three exhausting hours at a library or coffee shop. The last push was a weeklong spring break writing stretch in a cold Wisconsin March while my family was out of town.
I need to write ahead of time and then revise with new eyes.
Now, for non-fiction, with poetry, etc. I need the regular discipline of writing. But I'm struggling with where to fit the routine now. Maybe at lunch.
Oh, I could never write by hand, either, not in a million years. That would drive me nuts.
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I've just read through my account of how I write. Writing a book is totally impossible. Actually, I am trying to do it all over again. A nightmare. But loads of fun.
Totally old school for me on the initial drafts: Sharp pencil and paper with a dash of alchemy and bullshit. I love your first post, Anthony. It makes you sound like the Jack Kerouac/William Burroughs of the doctoral dissertation world (without the drugs i'm assuming...:)).
I don't think I follow a prescribed method... just - it starts in my head, and I type it. If I don't type my ideas out, then they keep me up at night... so I'll at least try to get them down on paper until I can type them. I've never written anything longer than 16 pages, except research papers. Those were only about 36 pages on average. And even then, I'd write them in bits at a time - I'd have to focus on writing each section, like each section was an assignment... and it'd take me a few days to do that, even.Getting it down in writing is not the problem for me - what eats up my time the most is the reading, editing, rewrites, rereading, editing again, rewrite... repeat.
Anthony wrote: "I've just read through my account of how I write. Writing a book is totally impossible."Well, it looks like you've got a few under your belt already, Anthony--but I know what you mean. I was doing a talk for undergrads at a local college, and they asked me how I write. I said that I just start at the upper left corner of the page and work my way down to the lower right; then I look at what I've done and say, "Wow. This really sucks." They laughed, but it's true. It's unbelievable just how bad a large, complex piece of writing can be at the beginning.
I am like Jonathan, have a degree in Journalism. In my basic reporting class, we had a half hour to interview someone as a class, then a half hour to write a story about the person. It was stressful at first, but I got used to just pounding out a story on a typewriter. I still have a hard time doing very much editing. When I took fiction writing later in college, professors always told me my stories and my sentences were both too short.Gus, have you read "On Writing" by Stephen King? He does a good job of explaining the process he uses, and there's lots of good stuff about drinking and smoking, too.
Cynthia wrote: "I am like Jonathan, have a degree in Journalism."Journalism degrees abound in Goodreads. Earned mine from SJSU in 1986.
Phil wrote: "Cynthia wrote: "I am like Jonathan, have a degree in Journalism."Journalism degrees abound in Goodreads. Earned mine from SJSU in 1986."
Actually, I practice without a license. I'm a journalist with no J-school degree--never felt hampered by this professionally, but sometimes I do wonder what I may have missed...
I love hearing other people's methods... mostly because mine are so haphazard & without any method to speak of. So far, I find that writing pen to paper allows my thoughts to flow more freely but I then tend to wander around in the maze that is my mind. I write better outside, esp when it's sunny. I think I get distracted/overwhelmed with everything when inside. Outlines & ordering seems to go better with my computer - maybe because of the handy tools it has. That always appeals to my Tech Writer side.
It's funny, when I'm wearing my TW hat it's all about organizing & order, where I completely shut out everything around me, but when I'm writing for me, or attempting fiction, I have to feel free & unencumbered or else my brain gets distracted. Never thought about that difference before.
Misha wrote: "You didn't miss anything, Jonathan. I have a master's degree in journalism, but use very little that I learned in school as an actual working journalist. The piece of paper just helped me get a job."That's good to hear Misha. I find that working for magazines or newspapers, the things that can really impress an editor are 1) doing the homework necessary to understand the subject matter, 2) turning in clean copy at the length specified, and 3) being on time. Doing those three things on a consistent basis, I've never had anyone ask me where I went to journalism school--but admittedly it was a little difficult breaking into the business at first.
Jonathan wrote: "the things that can really impress an editor are 1) doing the homework necessary to understand the subject matter, 2) turning in clean copy at the length specified, and 3) being on time..."Jonathan is definitely correct. Doing what is required and doing it on time will make an editor love you. Also, editors prefer you to accept most (not all)of their changes without fuss.
Similar considerations apply in other fields. For a short time in my life, I employed musicians. My main criterion in employing musicians was, "Would they turn up on time?" The quality of their performance came a definite second. Who needs a brilliant performance that doesn't take place?
Anthony wrote: "Doing what is required and doing it on time will make an editor love you. Also, editors prefer you to accept most (not all)of their changes without fuss..."Agreed regarding changes. If I don't like an edit, I'll either just learn to live with it, or if it's a change that really grates on me, I'll suggest an alternate solution to the problem (admitting explicitly that the editor's basic assessment of the problem is valid). I try very hard never to say, "My original text was perfect; your edit sucks," or words to that effect, even if I may secretly believe this to be the case. Being stubborn is not the way to an editor's heart--or anyone else's, come to think of it.
Cynthia, I'm reading On Writing right now, actually.
Thanks everyone for your input!
Thanks everyone for your input!
I kept handwritten journals from roughly junior high through the late 80's, much of which are downright embarassing in their crude prose. My wife thinks I should start crafting and rewriting them into some sort of memoir and try to scam a book deal from some unsuspecting publishing house. As if I've the time...
Regardless, I work best when I'm loaded up on caffeine.
Regardless, I work best when I'm loaded up on caffeine.
My junior high and high school and college journals are all completely embarrassing. Oh guess who likes Beth? I thought he likes Susie, but that's not what Mark said. Garh.
That's precisely what I've done, Clark. I've gone through some of my earliest writings, and, as crude and stupid and infantile as they seem, there's some good ideas to pick from. I hear you about the time, but as one writer once told me, a writer makes time to write. I'm about to step out for lunch - packed me a sandwich and some fruit - and take a writing pad with me.
Misha wrote: "I've been stealing time to write during my lunch hours. About 30 minutes usually gets me 250 words, which is about a page a day. Another chestnut a lot of writers repeat is a page a day equals a bo..."I think the habit of it is really important.
Also, I recommend Madison Smartt Bell's
Narrative Design: Working with Imagination, Craft, and Form
Let me preface my question: I'm in the process of writing a novel. Early stages, getting some good chunks down. I have a very clear idea of what I want the novel to be about, but rather than write it from beginning to end, I'm working on pieces and then will weave them together as it seems fit. One thing that's helped me free up the writing process is how I write. I find that if I write on a laptop, there are so many things that can easily distract me. If I put words down on pen and paper, the words just come out easier; I'm not faced with the temptation to edit myself using Word or some other kind of word processing software. Sure, I get wicked writers' cramp, but in the 3 weeks since I've seriously committed myself to writing, I'm hand-written more than I could ever type.
So, how do you write? Any preferred methods to getting your words down? Am I crazy for employing pen and paper?