Stephen King Fans discussion
IT Discussions
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Problems with "It"
Katniss wrote: "Mary wrote: "Bondama, I don't think anyone here doesn't "understand" the Bev scene. Some people just find the idea of 12 year olds engaging in sexual intercourse, no matter what the motive, to be a..."It was also because she herself had a fear of intimacy because her father abused her. You really never understood the severity of the abuse until she started hanging out with the boys and her fathers true jealousy came through the woodwork. It was innuendo-ed through the book in the Bev/dad scenes in the book and in the movie.
Also, the movie still to this day makes me check the toilet before I go to the bathroom...FREAKY!
Jennifer wrote: "Katniss wrote: "Mary wrote: "Bondama, I don't think anyone here doesn't "understand" the Bev scene. Some people just find the idea of 12 year olds engaging in sexual intercourse, no matter what the..."Me too I HATED washing my hair in the kitchen sink for the longest time and didn't let it dangle in the drain.
I guess i'm backwards from you all. My favorite is of course the DT books, but after them it's IT and then The Stand.
I love It. I think it is an amazing story of friendship and told in incredible style. The losers so REAL, you know them and they stay with you when you are finished reading. Pennywise scared the crap out of me. The house on Neibolt Street is the scariest place I have ever visited in a book. Plus, I love the way SK tells the story going back and forth from the fifties to the eighties. Sucks you in...As for the "Bev scene"-I think it is their transition from childhood to adulthood, and the beginning of them forgetting everything that happened. Didn't affect my love of the book at all, though it does make me a bit uncomfortable. Still my favorite SK book, among others!
That scene didn't bother me at all. The first time I read IT I was about 14 or 15. I've been reading romances since about then too, so the sex scene didn't faze me, since it wasn't nearly as purple as some of the other things I'd read. As for the age part, well, I wasn't much past that age, so visualizing wasn't weird. On the second time through though, late last year, I could understand the motives behind what they did better, and it made more sense to me.
I commented elsewhere in these forums about IT being my favorite work of King. I am in the camp of the pros for the scene for all of the reasons the others spoke above. I commend King for the bravery of formulating that scene without prurience. In the great grand scheme of things, might the Voice Of Gan be responsible for Bev's actions in that section, in order for the ka-tet of The Losers'Club to be strengthened further?
I like what you're saying, Agrimorfee. It makes sense in the wide scheme of things -- after all, it's hardly the typical behaviour of a girl Bev's age, is it?
You make you a good point, Agrimorfee...though I hadn't ever thought of it like that before!
Lori wrote: "I've pretty much stayed out of this discussion, and The Shining for much the same reason. Which is no one agrees with me. I have no illusions that you all are going to change your minds and agree w..."I agree with you Lori :D
Even more creepy than the Bev gangbang
I love It, myself. One of my favorites. I didn't think the ending was weak, really. The underage gangbang is weird yes, but it ties them all together in a very personal way, which is what they needed to defeat It. I realize it's offensive tho.
I'm pretty surprised about the amount of negativity regarding the "Bev scene' found on this forum. I can understand how one could see it as a disturbing scene in a normal context but this was a situation that was anything but normal.I always saw this scene as a necessary part of the novel because it is a scene in which, one, Bev calms the group down in what she felt was the only way (so it not only shows her strength in that moment but also her maturity), and two, it symbolizes the loss of innocence of the group.
In a novel that is so much about childhood, I think this is a critical transition period for the characters in the novel.
Now, would I want my daughter to be particpating in a ritual like this? Definitely not - haha. But I'm not an 11 year old that has just faced more evil than I can ever even imagine!
I also thought the Bev scene was important to the plot. But besides trying to calm the others, didn't she offer herself to also form a connection between all the Loser's Club members? Sort of a blood bond to maintain their group strength? Of course, that idea may be rubbish as I haven't read this in a while.
I read It last summer but read a lot since then so my memory of it isn't exactly fresh. I remember finding it very repetitive - just repeating the same events over and over from different characters perspective. As usual, King's prose makes it appealing but had anyone else written it I would probably have given up. Could've been a lot better had it been shorter in length. As far as the Bev scene goes... I found it kind of unnecessary. Not offensive, just weird. I would've had the kids make a connection through more mystical means - a spell or something. But maybe that's just me.
Even though now as an adult I can say the Bev scene was definitely a bit disturbing it does make a lot of sense. When you consider her relationship with her father and the innuendo that their was sexual abuse and also consider her life after her time with the boys it was probably the only time she felt any power around her own sexuality. She was young as were the boys but mentally she wasn't young at all. Again, as an adult this is definitely not something I would find okay but in the world created in IT it does make sense and I do think it has some importance in her characterization. When I read this at 14 I didn't think much of it to be honest. I don't think I realized how young twelve was then.
C'mon man. What makes Pennywise so great is his gimmicks. He's so funny one second, then is ripping a child apart in the next. IT is great. Shows how important friendship is.... and sex I guess.
Frankly the book is damn near perfect except for that one scene. That one scene.
I am so unearthly tired of "fans" complaining about "THE SCENE) Take the book as a whole, and listen to what King is saying -- I am in complete agreement with Agrimorfee about the Voice of Gan.
This book is so fucking amazing I can't find one goddamn thing to complain about
If you have a problem with "the scene", you must not understand what the story is about and the message in the book.
I'm with Henry and Trent on this one. :-)
Good one, Henry - Kudos to some Constant Readers!
The gang bang scene? The book could have gone without it with little harm being done. It doesn't really bother me. This is the most celebrated case of King making readers feel uncomfortable. However there has been others.....Firestarter had a few comments about an 8 year old girl riding a horse naked. :-)
The SCENE wrecked the book for me, too. I mean, come on, the characters were children.
Yeah, that scene added a "WTF" moment to it. I felt extremely uncomfortable and dreaded having to remind myself that these were 11-12 year olds.
I'm not saying the scene makes the rest of the book unreadable, I'm just saying that on my numerous re-reads I have skipped over it. Like others, I feel there were other ways the "gang" could have been bonded, and already had. The rest of the novel is genius enough to support it that one mi-step.I have no problem reading uncomfortable scenes and even when I skip that one, I know it happened and I "GET" the connection that was forged.
Like Monnie, I feel some sexual abuse was happening between Bev's father and Bev, but unlike her that makes me think it would have actually cheapened "the scene" for Bev. Is sex absolutely necessary for men? Is it impossible to bond over something else? Obviously not, since the "gang" had already bonded over so much else. The sex felt gratuitous.
Kandice wrote: "The rest of the novel is genius enough to support it that one mis-step ..."I suspect you are right, Kandice. In every other respect I found the book to be one of King's best.
I maybe in the minority but it did not feel as awkward to me as it had seemed to some other posters.In fact I hardly deliberated about it much,the writing as always with King was sincere enough for it to not seem that it was put there only for the sake of a shock.But I had only read it once and maybe re-reading would out it as a weak way to move the story forward.
I posted this comment in another section in response to a comment about how this scene from it bothered someone. It bothered me too but the more I thought about it the more I thought there was some justification. This is what I said. I once asked an editor friend how to write a really good story. He answered immediately. Take a group of interesting characters, put them in a difficult situation and see what they do.
The losers club in IT are a group of very interesting characters even as kids. The situation of confronting the ultimate evil couldn’t be more difficult. Stephen King when presented with this scenario, and the fact that the small circle had been broken, watched his characters and saw... (view spoiler) Could there be a more powerful resolution to the situation? I don’t think so. I wondered why the publisher allowed him to tell such a provocative story, one that runs right up against some of the strongest moral convictions we have. The answer is because he’s an artist. This isn’t prurient stuff. It’s not suggestive or obscene, it’s seven adolescent kids coming face to face with evil and dealing with it in a ritualistic way that they don’t understand but which resonates with primitive truth. It is shocking yes, maybe hard to take, but not wrong.
Does anyone remember how hard it was, and is, growing up, especially in the world that doesn't treat you nicely from the day we were born? Does anyone remember all those sleepless nights and weird situations in our adolescence concerning sex and other tabu issues, and what we did to explore and understand them? Growing up is never easy, and never will be. Taking that one obviously ominous scene out of the context of the whole book is denying the whole process of growing up that we've all experienced and been through, each in our own time, which means denying who we are now.
Tanja wrote: "Does anyone remember how hard it was, and is, growing up, especially in the world that doesn't treat you nicely from the day we were born? Does anyone remember all those sleepless nights and weird ..."Absolutely!
Nick wrote: "Tanja wrote: "Does anyone remember how hard it was, and is, growing up, especially in the world that doesn't treat you nicely from the day we were born? Does anyone remember all those sleepless nig..."That is what it's all about, so I am glad someone agrees with me! Thanks :)
Tanja wrote: "Nick wrote: "Tanja wrote: "Does anyone remember how hard it was, and is, growing up, especially in the world that doesn't treat you nicely from the day we were born? Does anyone remember all those ..."I'm sure there are lots of others who agree with you, Tanja.
Nick wrote: "Tanja wrote: "Nick wrote: "Tanja wrote: "Does anyone remember how hard it was, and is, growing up, especially in the world that doesn't treat you nicely from the day we were born? Does anyone remem..."I sure hope so!
Tanja wrote: "Does anyone remember how hard it was, and is, growing up, especially in the world that doesn't treat you nicely from the day we were born? Does anyone remember all those sleepless nights and weird ..."I thin we all remember that to one degree or another. I still don't see how that justifies the "scene" we are all discussing. Feeling like an outsider, a nothing, a nobody is the basis for the book. The losers banding together is what makes "It" possible, but the scene still feels out of place to me.
I can't say enough that it doesn't ruin the book for me, I just feel it could have been some other bonding experience and meant more to me. Again, that's personal, not universal.
Kandice wrote: "Tanja wrote: "Does anyone remember how hard it was, and is, growing up, especially in the world that doesn't treat you nicely from the day we were born? Does anyone remember all those sleepless nig..."I hear you Kandice, and I think you may be in the majority. As I say it shocked me. Not sure though; not many people weigh in on this so it's hard to say. I have to tell you, I've wracked my brain to think of an alternative. Nothing as powerful comes to mind. But then there is the shock value of the scene adding to its power. Personally, I just think King wanted to write it. I think he falls in love with his characters just as I do with mine. He gets very close to them. I'd also like to know what Tabitha thought about it. Bet she encouraged him to leave it in.
Nick wrote: "I posted this comment in another section in response to a comment about how this scene from it bothered someone. It bothered me too but the more I thought about it the more I thought there was some..."I am altogether sympathetic toward your point of view, Nick. On the other hand ... (view spoiler) I only wish Mr. King could have found another way to be "truthful" to his characters.
Vheissu wrote: "Nick wrote: "I posted this comment in another section in response to a comment about how this scene from it bothered someone. It bothered me too but the more I thought about it the more I thought t..."You're right.
Katarina wrote: "I seem to be the only one who had no problems with that scene. *ducks*"Nope your not alone I had no problem with it either
Nilofer wrote: "Chris said "I still hold many of my initial feelings about the book, and I don't think i'd ever read it again, but it was still an interesting journey in itself.
Oh, and about that scene with Beve..."
Umm.. The guy asked if he should finish it and you are all telling him the end!
Tom wrote: "Umm.. The guy asked if he should finish it and you are all telling him the end!"Well, I bet that everyone who has finished the book and sees a thread called "Problems with IT" immediately thinks of that scene. I did.
To add my opinion, IT is probably my favorite SK book, along with the middle books of The Dark Tower. I'm with the ones who wouldn't have the ending any other way. This is one of the few instances where a book has really made me uncomfortable and think about a scene a lot, and I appreciate it. I like the Voice of Gan interpretation.
I finished the book sometime ago, but been too busy to write about my experience. I've got a flu or cold or whatever it is (time to re-read The Stand ;) ), which forced me to slow down a bit. OK, so, here we go :I understand why some of you are, let's say, concerned about THAT scene. In the times we live in, the age is controversial, not to mention the group aspect. Plus the fact that, perhaps, the book would be fine without it (as some of you adapted by skipping that fragment).
BUT it is there and nothing gonna change that. And good! How many emotions, opinions, endless discussions it brings ! It forces us to think, to talk about it and share our thoughts and doubts. That's something positive about it.
I don't really have problems with the scene. Of course, at the beginning it was like: yyyygh? what the frock?, but after my conclusion was that, first, it was a symbolic act of living the childhood behind and go to the next stage. Second, it was an act of uniting the losers, something that ties them together forever. Also something had to be done to calm down the group at that moment, so Bev stepped out and, well, did it. In a way ,probably, she thought was suitable.
I think someone mentioned that: I also had a feeling of Beverly being abused by her father not only physically, but in a bad way as well. Though I don't think there was anything strait said about that in the story.
Anyway, I absolutely loved the novel. It easy becomes number one of the King books (overall "Rage" is still my favourite, but that's Bachman) for me. Really, really good read.
One more thing (I'm going crazy with writing today :P). The movie, or mini series. I watched it again after finishing the book. I looooove the young losers. The cast was great. As the adults go, I would change everyone.
Hey guys, just wanted to add my two cents on this scene as I've just finished this magnificent book a couple days ago! I've read through most of the comments and there's a lot of valid points on both sides. Myself, it bothered me a bit but that not much. Check this link out: http://stephenking.com/community/arch...Apparently it's quoting SK himself!
I didn't read it but I listened to the audio book with Steven Weber doing the narration. I loved it. I want to actually read it and I will someday. The funny thing to me about Stephen King books is that I think most of his endings are kind of just there. To me his stories are about the journey and I love the magical childhood stuff in IT but also the scary stuff about childhood, and I don't mean Pennywise per se but how our imaginations are so vivid and the dark and unknown can be so much scarier when you're a kid because that's how you remember it.
Bondama wrote: "One more word on the Bev scene in "IT" -- If you remember, Pennywise came after her primarily in a sexual sense. I'll never forget her father bellowing, "Bev" - come here - I need to know if you're..."I thought it was pretty pathetic and awful that she had to prove Pennywise/her dad right about being a "slut-child"
Kandice wrote: "That would be the scene. AND...I read this before I had pre-teen childrem. Basically, when I was one myself, and I've just never gotten over it. I have a pb and a HB copy of this book. I would neve..."That is exactly how I felt, along with many people I have discussed this book with. I really think King went too far with that scene. Then I had a discussion with Edward Lorn about It a couple days ago...it was on the phone, not here on GR, but he felt strongly about the scene-- when I mentioned my dislike of the scene, he explained that they that scene was there because what they do is meant to destroy their childhood so they can escape the grasp of the monster. i didn't feel like arguing with him about it because of his strong feelings and I guess I at least somewhat understand the reason for that scene, but I still do not like it at all. Of course, it doesn't change my love for King, but I was disappointed in him for a bit. Just went too far--they were 11--too young for a "gang bang"....Bev would have hurt for a long time!
Amanda wrote: "Misty wrote: "I didn't mind "the Bev scene" at all. I mean, personally, I thought it was probably far fetched. But really - we're talking about a demented, bizarre clown who lives in the sewer and ..."I have just finished reading some of King's earliest work--Night Shift. Many of those stories were pre-Carrie--His earliest published work. Anyway, the story The Mangler mentions a scene about a refrigerator at a dump that is much like the one in It. It may have even been the same one, as King so often likes to put bits and pieces from his older works in his books...that's why I'm reading him over in chronological order...to try to catch all of those thing, though I can be pretty blind. So that refrigerator in It must have gotten to me too, in the middle of that mammoth book, for me to notice it mentioned in the short story. Love those tie-ins in his work!
Jaime wrote: "I love It. I think it is an amazing story of friendship and told in incredible style. The losers so REAL, you know them and they stay with you when you are finished reading. Pennywise scared the cr..."Yes---I guess the move from childhood into adulthood is really what the scene was about. Pennywise went after childish people. The adults didn't know about him. The change into adulthood was how they managed to escape him....down there in the tunnel, they had to change quickly in order to escape, and I think King really thought that was the only way to make the move quickly.
Oh yea I do. I made the mistake of reading It when my husband was in boot camp, and I was all alone in this creaky old place out in the country. Stupid mistake! LOL