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Historical Group Reads
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Apr/May 2010: The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie - Alan Bradley
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Mod
So what are your thoughts on our young heroine?
I have finished chapter 8, so I am just getting to know Flavia, but I love her already, and I love the way Bradley makes her think and speak. She is dramatic, and melodramatic, as only a precocious 11-year-old girl can be.
I wonder if the author used his own 11-year-old daughter as a model.
I wonder if the author used his own 11-year-old daughter as a model.
**** Possible Spoilers *****I am listening to 'Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie', about half way through. I am enjoying the story. I think it's the sound of the narrator's voice, but Flavia seems like a full fledged, irritating brat. I really think if I were reading the book, I wouldn't think that she was 'full fledged'. She is a brat, but being a brat is not necessarily bad. I appreicate good natured brats!
The relationship between Flavia and her sisters leave a lot to be desired. I guess that is called sibling rivalry. Flavia probably learned sisterly meanness from her sisters' treatment of her and because of Flavia's intelligence and determination, she gives better than she gets. The girl is also looking for attention.
Flavia is doing a good job at unraveling her father's secrets. At this point in the audiobook there are more questions than answers. I have faith that she will solve the murder while entertaining me with her escapades.
Mod
As for the brattiness of Flavia, my mental voice for her leans more toward the amusing type of precocious kid or at least most of the time. I do think she is sometimes struggling to find her place in a very grown up world all by herself and perhaps her frustration, confusion, or even fear shows through.
I agree with you that Flavia is trying to find her place. She's done a very good job so far! The more I listen the more child-like Flavia is becoming. She's a bold, interesting child with a child's uncertainty. The small bouts of uncertainty makes her character more realistic to me. I love her conversation with her father in jail. Flavia hungers for a stronger connection with her father.
Back to listening! I probably should wait until I finish the book before I comment on it.
Paula wrote: "I am listening to 'Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie', about half way through. I am enjoying the story. I think it's the sound of the narrator's voice, but Flavia..."
I would have a hard time listening to this one, I think. I create such strong images in my head when I'm reading that someone else's interpretation would be jarring. (I like listening to descriptive things, where the interpretation of the characters is less important.)
Having said that, I love the way that Flavia is developing. She has never had to deal with anything so difficult. Everything has been easy for her, manipulating her sisters, getting around people, even her study of chemistry. Now there is a dead body in the cucumber patch, and the answers are not coming in the way she expects them... but she doesn't give up. She applies logic to the problem to carry on.
I would have a hard time listening to this one, I think. I create such strong images in my head when I'm reading that someone else's interpretation would be jarring. (I like listening to descriptive things, where the interpretation of the characters is less important.)
Having said that, I love the way that Flavia is developing. She has never had to deal with anything so difficult. Everything has been easy for her, manipulating her sisters, getting around people, even her study of chemistry. Now there is a dead body in the cucumber patch, and the answers are not coming in the way she expects them... but she doesn't give up. She applies logic to the problem to carry on.
I think Flavia is a great character; she's smart and funny and has tons of ingenuity. She also has a lot of good luck in coming across people who have useful clues and information to help her solve the crime. Flavia's knack for chemistry is genius....the poison ivy lipstick she uses to get back at her sister is inspired!
I finished reading 'Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie', The next book I will read. Listening to a story leaves a different impact than reading it.Barbara, I agree with your description of Flavia. I thought the poison ivy lipstick bordered on the criminal! Flavia's sister took it with relatively good humour. After all, that's how the girls relate to one another.
**** Possible Spoilers *****
Paula wrote: "I love her conversation with her father in jail. Flavia hungers for a stronger connection with her father. .."
I'm just reading this part now, Paula. It's a great story that her father tells, isn't it? Very evocative, and so touching the impact it has on Flavia, that hunger you mention.
Paula wrote: "I love her conversation with her father in jail. Flavia hungers for a stronger connection with her father. .."
I'm just reading this part now, Paula. It's a great story that her father tells, isn't it? Very evocative, and so touching the impact it has on Flavia, that hunger you mention.
I just started it last night and really enjoyed the beginning. Of course, I am not very far yet.
I am halfway through this and agree with previous posts about Flavia's personality, especially with the word precocious. However, I feel a flutter of fear every time she mentions chemistry - will she accidentally poison someone? Mind you her knowledge of plants and poisons is amazing, but I think she is very wise keeping this knowledge to herself.Most of the adults, except Dogger, don't really seem to know her at all. What a character.
Must keep reading.
I get that same flutter of fear when Flavia goes into chemistry mode. Brillant child, but a child none the less with questionable social skills. I think Flavia uses chemistry and her little scientific observations to shield her from life's constant uncomfortable moments. Flavia is in control when she's thinking talking, acting science.Flavia is much wiser now when it comes to the people around her. Her logical, brillant mind allowed her to think and move to action when she was bound and dumped in that hold. Scared though she was. The love of her family and friends saved her. Flavia was a bit surprised over that!
Mod
A girl would have to be very determined to overcome the social limitations of the 1950's. There were quite a few accomplished woman is the 1950's, though they had to fight harder than today. An 11 year old female would have to have parents that allowed or encouraged her gifts. Flavia's mother was unusually bold for her time and her father ignored most of what she did. I think that most people considered her a strange little girl from an aristocratic family. Such children were allowed to be somewhat strange!
I adore the character of Flavia, charms me to the core. Her independence and survival instincts make for such a great story. As a mother, though, I so wish that Flavia had someone in her life who showed her a strong, unconditional love. I want her to have some warmth in her world. However, that twinge of motherly desire hasn't kept me from enjoying every bit of this book and its sequel.
In chapter 18:
*********Spoilers************
When she comes down from the tower and is "apprehended" by Inspector Hewitt:
The little man's pale blue eyes bulged visibly in their sockets.
'Why, it's only a girl!' he said.
I could have slapped his face.
I think, strangely, that girls in the 1950s might have had more freedom to do certain things, and not felt all the "stranger danger" that we feel today.
Flavia is, in any case, very used to thinking and acting for herself. Only a girl, indeed!
*********Spoilers************
When she comes down from the tower and is "apprehended" by Inspector Hewitt:
The little man's pale blue eyes bulged visibly in their sockets.
'Why, it's only a girl!' he said.
I could have slapped his face.
I think, strangely, that girls in the 1950s might have had more freedom to do certain things, and not felt all the "stranger danger" that we feel today.
Flavia is, in any case, very used to thinking and acting for herself. Only a girl, indeed!
Well, Flavia's mother was dead and her father... uh, remote. Though I think a lot of it's the love the British seem to have for aristocratic eccentrics!
I think some of the other characters in the story are quite interesting and add to the book's appeal - like Mrs. Mullet, the cook who makes horrible custard pies and Dogger, the gardener who is slightly addled from his war experiences. I think these characters act a little like surrogate care givers for Flavia, especially Dogger. Flavia seems to have a very close (if somewhat odd) relationship with Dogger. I thought Alan Bradley was fair about providing clues about the murderer (though I didn't guess who it was) and the snippets about stamp collecting were quite interesting.
SPOILER ALERT
I didn't love the end of the book when Flavia was trapped in the underground pit for such a long time. This part got tedious. This is a small quibble though. Overall, I found the book very enjoyable.
Mod
I completely agree that girls would have faced limitations in persuing a career of any kind and especially science in the 50s. I was thinking more about her freedom to bicycle many miles by herself and wander the countryside so freely. Many children today can't seem to venture farther than the fence of their backyard, unfortunately
That's what I was talking about, Donna. I think parents are more worried now about that sort of thing. I mean even in NYC in the 70s I was wandering around by myself on my bicycle... (where was my mother, and why wasn't she screeching blue murder?) The British countryside was probably safe from that point of view.
Today I wouldn't let my daughter (if I had one) go around by herself, nor my son.
Today I wouldn't let my daughter (if I had one) go around by herself, nor my son.
i grew up in the 50s and 60s in illinois and rode my bike everywhere although after a certain hour my parents would express concern. they didn't really like me taking public transport into the city alone.
I've only got to page 100ish so far and am hoping I will have more positive feelings about the book as I near the finish. However at this point, while I know the main character is Flavia, there seems to be very little character development and frankly, the story so far seems a bit thin. I also find Flavia actually a bit boring and have a hard time picturing her as a 10 year old girl - no matter the era.I've only gotten to the point where the regular librarian isn't there and the substitute filling in tells Flavia about a long ago death. . .what I'm assuming has some bearing on the current murder. . .I'm just not that interested yet. But I hope it gets better.
I just finished. Totally lovely, and I can't wait to read the next one!
********Spoilers***********
I thought the bit with the brain demonstration was just a little over the top, and could have been left as a theoretical problem. If Flavia had arrived at the answer logically by studying her books it would have been much more effective I think.
@Barbara: I didn't mind that bit, as it contrasted with the opening scene and showed her to be just what she is... a young child in deep trouble. At the beginning she seems like an almost grownup, and can get out of anything. At the end everyone gets her... even her sister plants her revenge!
********Spoilers***********
I thought the bit with the brain demonstration was just a little over the top, and could have been left as a theoretical problem. If Flavia had arrived at the answer logically by studying her books it would have been much more effective I think.
@Barbara: I didn't mind that bit, as it contrasted with the opening scene and showed her to be just what she is... a young child in deep trouble. At the beginning she seems like an almost grownup, and can get out of anything. At the end everyone gets her... even her sister plants her revenge!
Mod
I've visited England and the descriptions of the country seem good to me but I know we have some UK natives and residents among the group - so how did he really do?
Donna wrote: "I was reading some more reviews of this book and did you know that Alan Bradley, he's Canadian, had never visited England before he wrote this book!I've visited England and the descriptions of ..."
Very interesting, Donna. I, too, would like to hear from some of the UK members as to how he did.
I listened to the audiobook as well and loved it. The narrator did a great job of voicing all the characters and, I thought, really captured the 11 year old.I think that's the thing I found most impressive about the book is that the narrator FELT 11. That he managed to capture that so consistently was really cool.
Mod
Hi everyone,I was at the Malice Domestic conference when they announced that The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie had won the Agatha Award for Best First Novel. Alan Bradley lives on Malta and is in his 70s, so he didn't travel to the conference. The organizers were able to contact him by email to tell him that he won, though, and he replied with a very gracious note that they read out loud to the attendees.
I'm going to the Festival of Mystery in Oakmont, PA today before heading home, and I can't wait to start reading Nancy Pickard's The Scent of Rain and Lightning: A Novel, which I bought at Malice and they were selling pre-release. Happy reading to you all!
That must have been fun, Beth!
Can you post some information about the festival when you get back? Might be interesting to see some of the "insider" stuff!
Can you post some information about the festival when you get back? Might be interesting to see some of the "insider" stuff!
Donna wrote: "Just saw on the Malice Domestic site that The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie has won the Agatha Award for the Best First Novel!"Wonderful, well deserved!
I finished this book the other day, and really enjoyed it. Although Flavia is unlike any 11 year old I know, she was a refreshing break from the adult sleuths who are often very cynical. I loved the sibling rivalry, and Bradley's words are a joy to read.
Possible Spoiler:I am really enjoying the character of Flavia. I am almost finished. Flavia seems so much older than her age. I wonder if it is growing up without Harriet and the fact that she doesn't get along with her sisters. What are other's thoughts on this?
Kelly wrote: "Possible Spoiler:I am really enjoying the character of Flavia. I am almost finished. Flavia seems so much older than her age. I wonder if it is growing up without Harriet and the fact that she..."
Possible Spoiler
I think the author does imply that Flavia has had to mature faster than normal because she is motherless and her dad seems to be clueless about raising his daughters...always wrapped up in his stamps and kind of hazy about what the gals are up to. Flavia has had to fend for herself a lot.
To be fair to the dad, I think he does realize things aren't ideal. In the second book he tells the girls' aunt that "it isn't easy for them" (or words to that effect.)
Flavia's relationship with the sisters is more complex, I think. There's the usual dose of sibling rivalry and sibling friction but I think, underneath all that, the girls care about each other. If I remember correctly (and maybe I don't), the sisters are quite concerned when Flavia is in danger in the latter part of the book.
I thought that this was a wonderful pick for April! I read this book quite quickly and very much enjoyed the writing style. When I found out that our heroine was 11, I must admit that I was skeptical as to whether or not this was going to be a book that I would enjoy but the writing was very engaging. I will have to agree with a couple of the other reviews that Flavia is unlike any other 11 year old I've met but that doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy her snappy wit and sleuthing. I would absolutely read more books by Mr. Bradley.
Mod
What did everyone think of Bradley's interpretation of the traditional "English county house murder"?
Hayes wrote: "That must have been fun, Beth! Can you post some information about the festival when you get back? Might be interesting to see some of the "insider" stuff!"
I posted a bunch of author photos and a summary of the Malice Domestic conference and the Festival of Mystery at my blog: http://bethgroundwater.blogspot.com/
Mod
Hi Donna,I'm a huge believer in playing fair with the reader and providing all the clues they need to solve the mystery somewhere in the book (hopefully in good hiding places!). I also hate it when we've been inside the sleuth's head until s/he discovers who-dunnit, then all of a sudden we aren't privvy to his/her thoughts. My feelings on this usually mean my sleuth doesn't discover who-dunnit until near the end of the book and the reader knows at the same time.
I work very hard at creating realistic characters, and I even devoted a full year to studying characterization techniques before I was published. Readers only care about characters who are three-dimensional and usually want the sleuth to be plucky and determined. I don't think that following the mystery form and playing fair with the reader prevents the author from developing strong characters at all. Only laziness and lack of skill do. It's all a matter of getting to know the characters very well, so well in fact that they start to have conversations with you and each other in your head!
That's good news, Heather. I really loved it and I convinced my husband to read it too, and he's really enjoying it as well.
It is fun, isn't it? This book just cheered me up. I love it when that happens.
I hope the audio has a great reader, which can make all the difference in a book.
I hope the audio has a great reader, which can make all the difference in a book.
Mod
Heather, I hope you and your husband enjoy the book as much as we all have.
Hayes and Heather, please let us know what the hubbies have to say about it. I would be interested in the male perspective.
I think he's having trouble with the translation. There have been a few mistakes (Italian editor was AWOL, I fear) that have interfered with understanding of some small points, which is too bad. Otherwise he is enjoying it.
Mod
At Bouchercon this week, The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie won both the Macavity Award 2010 and the Barry Award 2010 for the best first novel.
Donna wrote: "Just an update on this book.At Bouchercon this week, The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie won both the Macavity Award 2010 and the Barry Award 2010 for the best first novel."
Good to hear Donna. The rewards are well deserved.
I wasn't thrilled with this book. I really enjoyed the first book better. That may have been because it was a different perception (seen through a child's eyes) and a simple mystery. I enjoyed getting to know the characters (especially head-strong Flavia) and was looking for more character development in the second book. I didn't feel the story was strong but that's because I kind of didn't care what happened next. I do have the third book on my to-read list so I'm hoping for something new and not more of the same continued story.
Recently read "The Sweetness...", I'm a series purist so HAVE to read things in order. I'm glad that I did."The Weed that Stringa the Hangman's Bag" would not have been the same without knowing the family interactions from this one.
Really enjoyed this book.
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The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie was released in early 2009 and has won the 2007 British Crime Writers’ Association Debut Dagger and the 2009 Dilys Award. It is nominated for the 2009 Agatha Award in the ‘Best First Novel’ category.