The History Book Club discussion
PRESIDENTIAL SERIES
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10. AMERICAN SPHINX ~ CHAPTER 5 (273 - 300) (04/05/10 - 04/11/10) ~ No spoilers, please
MonticelloMonticello, located just outside Charlottesville, Virginia, was the estate of Thomas Jefferson, the principal author of the United States Declaration of Independence, third President of the United States, and founder of the University of Virginia.
The house, which Jefferson himself designed, was based on the neoclassical principles described in the books of the Italian Renaissance architect Andrea Palladio. It is situated on the summit of an 850-foot (260 m)-high peak in the Southwest Mountains south of the Rivanna Gap. Its name comes from the Italian "little mountain."
An image of the west front of Monticello by Felix Schlag has been featured on the reverse of the nickel minted since 1938 (with a brief interruption in 2004 and 2005, when designs of the Westward Journey series appeared instead).
Monticello also appeared on the reverse of the two-dollar bill from 1929 to 1966, when the bill was discontinued. The current bill was introduced in 1976 and retains Jefferson's portrait on the obverse but replaced Monticello on the reverse with an engraved modified reproduction of John Trumbull's painting Declaration of Independence instead. The gift shop at Monticello hands out two-dollar bills as change.
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monticello
Visit of the Marquis de Lafayette to the United StatesFrom July 1824 to September 1825, the last surviving French General of the Revolutionary War, the Marquis de Lafayette, made a famous tour of the 24 states in the United States. At many stops on this tour he was received by the populace with a hero's welcome, and many honors and monuments were presented to commemorate and memorialize the Marquis de Lafayette's visit.
Lafayette visited Monticello on November 24, 1824.
Lafayette in 1825
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visit_of...
The Adams-Jefferson LettersJohn Adams and Thomas Jefferson "exchanged 158 letters and created what many historians have come to regard as the greatest correspondence between prominent statesmen in all of American history." pg
The Adams-Jefferson Letters: The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams
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Here are excerpts from some of the Adams-Jefferson Letters (National Humanities Center with images from the Library of Congress) -
Source and excerpts:
http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/p...
Bentley
Thanks for the posts Joe and Bentley. These letters are great. I had the chance to read about 3 dozen or so and they are fascinating and well-written.Overall, Ellis' handling of this issue is pretty good. I especially enjoyed the passage where he described TJ liking Adams except for his politics and it is similar to liking the pope except when talking faith. Funny. I do believe they were a "band of brothers" and had a strong history regarding the revolution and Europe. Mix this with their exceptional reading and education, you have a good foundation.
Here is something on the Mecklenburg Resloves:n 1819, a document called the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence was published, with the claim that it had been written on May 20, 1775. It included the statement that “we do hereby declare ourselves a free and independent people, are, and of right ought to be, a sovereign and self-governing Association, under the control of no power other than that of our God and the General Government of the Congress.” In celebration, the date of May 20, 1775, appears on North Carolina’s state flag.
But no earlier reference to that document has ever been found, and most historians doubt that it ever existed. Most likely, the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence was what someone remembered the Mecklenburg Resolves to have been, borrowing phrases from the Declaration of 1776.
Source:
http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nc...
Jefferson said it was a forgery, but although he said he never saw it, he always claimed the ideas in the DOI were "out there."
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Overall, Ellis' handling of this issue is p..."
Very true Bryan..and I laughed when I read the pope analogy..I guess Jefferson was saying, "I could really like you John except for who you are and everything you believe in. But beneath the surface I rather believe that you are a jolly good fellow who I could have a beer with (as long as we did not talk about politics)."
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n 1819, a document called the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence was published, with the claim that it had been written on May 20, 1775. It incl..."
I think I side a bit more with Jefferson who I think was the pen to the ideas of the founding fathers at that time. He probably asked what kind of document should this be, what kind of ideas should I include, etc. And they probably gave them to him and off he went to pen a document that has become immortalized and with it the author of the document himself.
I agree with your rendition of what most likely transpired.
Yeah, I agree Bentley. TJ's gift was to consolidate these ideas into a masterful document. You do wonder how good his memory was after 40 years, but I do side with Jefferson.
Regarding the Adams-Jefferson letters, I own a book titled "The Invention of Air: A Story Of Science, Faith, Revolution, And The Birth Of America" by Steven R. Johnson. It is about the chemist, theologian and political theorist, Joseph Priestley. In the Authors Note at the beginning of the book, Steven Johnson writes: "In their legendary 13-year final correspondence, reflecting back on their collaborations and their feuds, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams wrote 165 letters to each other.
In that corpus, Benjamin Franklin is mentioned by name 5 times, while George Washington is mentioned 3 times. Their mutual nemesis, Alexander Hamilton, warrants only 2 references.
By contrast, Priestly, an Englishman who spent only the last decade of life in the United States, is mentionoed 52 times. That statistic alone gives some sense of how important Priestly was to the founders. in part because he would play a defining roll in the rift and ultimate reconcilation between Jefferson and Adams, and in part because his distinctive world view had a profound impact on both men..."
I have this book on my list to read next and I thought it might be of interest to others reading American Sphinx.
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If you have read this book and if you can remember...why was Priestly so defining for both men and secondly, how did Priestly play a role in the reconciliation of both men?
Bentley... I want to find out the answer to both of those questions myself. Once I finish American Sphinx, I'll be reading The Invention of Air. Give me a couple weeks and I'll get back to you.
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We look forward to hearing from you on this subject when you have the answers.
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http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/lit/je...
He rings a bell. I know they corresponded about religion, Priestley's book on Christianity and Jefferson's bible. I think they both believed that the supernatural aspect of religion has no place.
Ellis examines the Adams-Jefferson correspondence in a unique way: the two personalities. We have TJ who is for reason and how humans can reach their ideals, while Adams is the realist who enjoys examining human emotions. Ellis mentions that TJ brings up (inadvertently) these topics that sets Adams off. I wonder if TJ felt "safe" with Adams to do this?Also, Ellis' discussion brings up large questions such as Adams observing over human history that reason really doesn't translate so well in politics.
On what side do you consider yourself: idealist or realist?
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That is a tough question don't you think...I can identify with Jefferson in terms of believing in the best but I think the scale for me tips towards realism. I would have been more comfortable with John Adams at the helm; I can't say that I would have felt the same way about John Quincy however. Not sure why.
I guess I was more of an idealist when I was a teenager...weren't we all. But I still would rather see the best in everyone rather than the worst.
I didn't mean to "stump the panel" with the question. It just got me thinking...I was more of an idealist when I was younger, too. I tend to more of a realist when it comes to viewing history and politics. So, I guess I lean toward Adams, too. Being a philosophy major back in the day, I appreciate TJ's views, though.
I think TJ's views did hold sway for many of us looking at history as progress, at least up to the 20th century. Our history was about moving forward, developing our best, progress. However, by the two world wars and moving into Watergate, things seemed to have changed. Maybe Adams would be less surprised than TJ on this...
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I think that Adams would be able to flow with all of this versus TJ.
Well said, Bentley. I think TJ would love all this technology stuff more than Adams. He would probably have a laptop, iphone, and an e-reader.
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And of course, I have the MacBook Pro, the IMac, the Iphone and the Kindle so who am I to talk about Jefferson.
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Can you imagine a 65 year old ex-president returning on horseback alone traveling from Washington on his way to permanent retirement without any assistance and pressing by himself on this horse 8 hours through a snowstorm? That was to be his final ride home from Washington. Boy how far have we come or how far away from security and peace have we traveled.
I guess things were so much simpler then.
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I loved how Jefferson states to Adams - "our machines have been now running for 70 or 80 years, and we must expect that worn as they are; here a pivot, there a wheel, now a pinion, next a spring, will be giving way."
Or when Jefferson was complaining that visiting Monticello had become like a visit to Mecca by many and had become a National Shrine and Jefferson did not feel that he had much if any privacy. I thought that Adams reply was priceless - that he was "prescient enough to make himself unpopular" (smile)...so Adams-like.
Or when Lafayette visited Jefferson in 1824 (his last visit to the United States), he had brought with him 120 mounted men and a crowd of another 200 onlookers!!! Jefferson could not get any peace at his home and many times had 50 guests staying overnight. Even then he had become a National Treasure.
I also have always loved the sentiment expressed by Adams in his letter to Jefferson - "You and I ought not to die, before we have explained ourselves to each other."
Words that many of us should have expressed to folks who are living yet Adams felt that he and Jefferson should bury the hatchet.
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This always seemed so beneath him yet he paid folks to write articles etc. under the guise that this bad press was coming from them and not from him.
He even lied to Washington when confronted and this caused a permanent falling out between the two men.
Adams was not the only one to be tarnished for sure. Jefferson even lied to Abigail about Callendar and The Prospect Before Us publication (not in goodreads) completely subsidized by Jefferson himself. Abigail could not restrain herself from comparing Callender and maybe indeed Jefferson himself to a snake indicating that Jefferson possibly got back a little of what he deserved.
Clearly, Jefferson's two terms had both positive and negative outcomes. We could say that the Louisiana Purchase was a great accomplishment.
In terms of your own feelings about Jefferson as president what do you think were his strengths and accomplishments as president and what were the negative characteristics, failings and bad decisions. I often feel that all of our presidents have a combination of both the good and the bad and only history can judge the true outcome of their policies, decisions and fallout of their actions.
The love of the man even today has to speak volumes about the charisma that he had to have exuded in real life even though he was allegedly a quiet and shy man.
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What was the purpose of Ellis telling us that Jefferson soaked his feet in cold water every morning/day? What were the health reasons for doing this? I am curious (smile).
Good posts, Bentley, thanks.I think his greatest achievement is the LA Purchase. He acted boldly and understood the territory's importance. His worst, it might be the embargo. It did keep us out of a war that we were not prepared for, so I give him marks for that, but it really wasn't a great option.
You bring up some interesting points about TJ's actions. I think you are right that every president is human and has good and bad characteristics. We forget that sometimes. IMHO, it is history's job to uncover and explore both of them. (Sometimes history is used to paint a rosy picture.) TJ's "problem" is that he was put on such a high pedestal because of his place in the American Revolution. He is still an inspiration for many around the world and should be.
However, I totally agree that it is not the full story. When I came to work at Monticello, I had to reconcile this with the fact that he owned slaves and he was a political operative. It wasn't easy at first. But you know, he was a political operative, plain and simple. Had to lie, check. Use intermediaries to attack and get his message across so he looks cleaner, check. Ellis might be right in that his personality dictated how he would act, so he worked behind the scenes because of his shyness and his fear of confrontation.
By the time I left Monticello, TJ was not the same person I walked into. He was tarnished, but he was human.
Bentley wrote: "Bryan or one of the group readers,What was the purpose of Ellis telling us that Jefferson soaked his feet in cold water every morning/day? What were the health reasons for doing this? I am curi..."
TJ soaked his feet for hygiene purposes. He believed that it kept him from getting sick. I also learned working at the Woodrow Wilson home that in Victorian times, people washed their feet because people believed you got sick through your feet. It is probably a good thing in the South with all the ticks and worms out there.
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What was the purpose of Ellis telling us that Jefferson soaked his feet in cold water every morning/day? What were the health reasons for doing ..."
Ah..thank you..I had wondered why just the feet (smile).
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I think his greatest achievement is the LA Purchase. He acted boldly and understood the territory's importance. His worst, it might be the embargo. It did keep us o..."
Bryan thank you for your kind words..but your post was terrific..it actually made Jefferson more human (both his strengths and his weaknesses).
I quoted a source partially in a post I made yesterday on another thread and I only used the first part of the quote...but the entire quote was the following:
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
This was allegedly a quotation by John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834–1902). The historian and moralist, who was otherwise known simply as Lord Acton, "allegedly" expressed this opinion in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887.
I would hate to believe this quote but do you think there is some truth in this? And what constitutes bad? And in what context was he using the word great?
Were Jefferson, Washington, Adams, Franklin both great and bad at the same time? Maybe that is how they understood the basic nature of man and took precautions in setting up the American government and structure.
Bentley wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Good posts, Bentley, thanks.A great quote, and I think there is some truth to it. I think absolute power corrupts absolutely, and I think the Founding Fathers believed it, thus creating the checks and balances.
Regarding the last part of the quote, maybe it is a utilitarian thing. If someone can be great and bad, then you want more greatness.
Maybe Lord Acton was using great as a degree of something, in this case the position of power or influence. For example, a monarch or president is great because of the powers of the office.
Were the Founding Fathers great and bad? As seen as human beings, very possibly. Bad to me stems from a moral evil of some kind, so personally, I tend to hold back on saying they are bad. Now, are some of them bad men for owning slaves? You can argue yes.
I think there are people who are not bad, maybe imperfect, but not bad. I think we can come back to this great question as we discuss more of the presidents and their times.
Mod
Great response and a question that needs to be revisited for sure.
TJ's mentor, George Wythe, would use cold water and shower his entire body, so TJ at least only 'froze' one part!Adams and TJ were so different; I agree that TJ would have loved our techno age, while Adams would struggle and learn only what he absolutely had to use to do his work. TJ: solitary/behind the scenes (preferably); Adams: out there in the middle.
I think TJ was so eager to get to Monticello that he would have plowed through both 2 foot snowstorms DC had this year to get home.
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Yes, Adams and TJ were like the odd couple (smile).
Goodness I am getting chills all over thinking about the cold water...yikes that would wake you up in the morning for sure.
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"Jefferson was a mysterious shadow man; whose character was like the great rivers whose bottoms we cannot see and makes no noise."
Not altogether flattering about TJ. Do you think that Adams was insinuating that TJ was characterless, a shady character or a personage who had no scruples, ethics and/or conscience. It is obvious that Adams still took the antics of the TJ who was a political operative to heart and took these things personally and as an affront to his own honesty and good character.
Why did some of the most instrumental human beings and founding fathers who are known to have stood tall and spoken out for all that was in the country's interests like George Washington and John Adams feel this way about Jefferson. You noticed that I did not add Alexander Hamilton to the equation because he was not altogether above reproach but certainly Washington and Adams were. Why slander men like that?
Sometimes I feel that the person who slanders says more about themselves than the other party.
I wonder sometimes if the Southern culture made Jefferson repulsed by political maneuverings; yet his ambition made him resort to it behind the scenes. Maybe by trying to hide his involvement; he could even deny its harm to others and not feel as guilty (if he felt guilty at all).
Yet, Jefferson is an icon of our country. And when all is said and done -
"He was a polymath, and he achieved distinction as, among other things, a horticulturist, political leader, architect, archaeologist, paleontologist, inventor, and founder of the University of Virginia. When President John F. Kennedy welcomed 49 Nobel Prize winners to the White House in 1962 he said, "I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent and of human knowledge that has ever been gathered together at the White House – with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."[5:] To date, Jefferson is the only president to serve two full terms in office without vetoing a single bill of Congress. Jefferson has been consistently ranked by scholars as one of the greatest of U.S. presidents."
Source - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_J...
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I was wondering Bryan if Jefferson had ever written how he came to write the Declaration of Independence and who had given him this task to complete. Was it Adams?
If so, it was Adams (his old nemesis) who made Jefferson an unforgettable icon.
Bentley wrote: "It was interesting that Adams realized that Jefferson had a way with words. I do wonder at Adams assertion that because of that it was he who had asked the young Jefferson to pen the Declaration o..."Adams felt TJ was a better writer, so he gave him the assignment to write it.
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I wondered if somebody in Adams own household had leaked these letters.
I loved the way he signed off - J.A. - In the 89 year of his age still too fat to last much longer (smile).
Bentley wrote: "wonder sometimes if the Southern culture made Jefferson repulsed by political maneuverings."Interesting thought Bentley. It does makes sense in general. I'm reminded of the southern senators using the filibuster to stop civil rights for decades. However, there were plenty aggressive Virginians like Patrick Henry though.
Virginia wrote: "TJ's mentor, George Wythe, would use cold water and shower his entire body, so TJ at least only 'froze' one part!Adams and TJ were so different; I agree that TJ would have loved our techno age, w..."
Virginia, well said. TJ would also lock himself into the library to do work. You might as well put up a "do not disturb" sign.:-)
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On the other hand Jefferson thought that if Adams was right the American Revolution was not a revolution.
Who was right? Was one right and the other wrong or did both men have a point?
It is odd but the natural rights segment of the Declaration of Independence is probably what resonates with every American today no matter what their gender, race, religion, etc. This is the segment which set Jefferson apart I think...not sure what others might think about this.
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Odd how Jefferson referred to the days of the Revolution and the part they played as the Heroic Age and Ellis correctly pointed out I believe that both of these men became "living statues to the rising generation."
It really is nice to have some icons and heroes like Adams and Jefferson to still admire and respect. So often in our times all of our heroes are targeted and demeaned in some way; nice to have some still preserved.
And it is refreshing that they had so much mutual respect even though they come from "across the aisle."I agree that the Founding Fathers are a unique group that garnishes so much respect.
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I wish I saw some of this in our Congress.
The founding fathers were a different breed and I agree they are the reason we enjoy what we do today.
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So there was substance and truth in what Adams said...good judge of a person's ability.
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Interesting thought Bentley. It does makes sense in general. I'm reminded of the sout..."
Well maybe his mother was from the North...actually I do not know where Patrick Henry's parents came from - only kidding. Henry really does not seem to be Southern to me; but then they have had some firebrands from the South too which would throw that hypothesis out the window.
PS: Henry's father was born and educated at King's College in Scotland and his mother was of English descent but from Hanover County so maybe he inherited his saucy tongue from his ancestry versus his locale.
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First page is at the bottom of the Tenth Congressional Congress's documents for that Session: (December 22, 1807)
Second Page continues at top of page 452 - image below: (page 452 - with lots of explanatory notes below)
[image error]
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On page 453, it continues with more chapter and verse (Section 2 and Chapter VII and Chapter VIII -
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On page 454, it continued - January 9, 1808 (not sure if some portions were approved in December and others in January but there appear to be a number of statutes piled on.
[image error]
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The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Invention of Air (other topics)The First American: The Life and Times of Benjamin Franklin (other topics)
The First American: The Life and Times of Benjamin Franklin (other topics)
American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson (other topics)
The Invention of Air (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Steven Johnson (other topics)H.W. Brands (other topics)
H.W. Brands (other topics)
Joseph J. Ellis (other topics)
Steven Johnson (other topics)
More...
This begins the tenth week's reading in our new Presidential Series group discussion.
The complete table of contents is as follows:
Prologue. Jefferson Surge: America, 1992-1993 p.3
1. Philadelphia:1775-76 p.27
2. Paris: 1784-89 p.75
3. Monticello: 1794-97 p.139
4. Washington, D.C.: 1801-1804 p.200
5. Monticello: 1816-1826 p.273
Epilogue. The Future of an Illusion p.349
Appendix. A Note on the Sally Hemings Scandals p.363
The assignment for this week includes the following segments/pages:
Week Ten - April 5th - April 11th -> 5. Monticello: 1816-1826 p.273 - 300
Words and Music
We look forward to your participation; but remember this is a non spoiler thread.
We will open up threads for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers.
This book was kicked off on February 1st. This will be the tenth week's assignment for this book.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.
A special welcome to those who will be newcomers to this discussion and thank you to those who have actively contributed on the previous Presidential Series selection. We are glad to have you all.
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
Here also is the syllabus:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...