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What Turns You OFF When Reading an Interracial Romance?
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Arch , Mod
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Jul 18, 2014 05:01PM
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@Arch,I'm well-versed with that saying. Even in my comment, I wrote that I frequently remind myself that the judging is wrong.
I also pointed that 1. my aversion to poor grammar in writing is largely related to my difficulty understanding things being conveyed in written form if they deviate from what's considered the norm. It's probably half a life-long fixation on logic (my older siblings still tell stories and mock me for it) and half an assumption that if, given the time to compose one's thoughts, one should actually try to do in the best way possible. It's the latter part that I'm still trying to stamp out.
I also noted that 2. "I have a lot less trouble understanding non-standard grammar when it's spoken than when it's written"; my brain finds it easier to process spoken language, though actually speaking is more difficult for me than writing. If someone is speaking rather than writing, my judging instinct doesn't usually kick in. I may or may not notice the deviations, depending on the situation, but it will very rarely impede my ability to understand. And I've never got that flash of "probably stupid" that I get when reading.
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@Arch, I haven't written that I think that anyone here is stupid; I wrote that I have been struggling against an instinctive reaction when I encounter online strangers who use non-standard grammar – a struggle I continue to have because 1. I know the judgement is wrong and 2. I know the reaction is at least partly due to my own difficulties processing written information that employs non-standard grammar, a difficulty I don't have with verbal communication. And I brought it up only to further illustrate why books with grammar error are a peeve of mine.I'm sorry that you are questioning whether this is a personal attack against you or anyone else here when it is about me and what turns me off about some IR books I've read and why.
Paganalexandria **wicked juices bubbling over** wrote: " Danielle The Book Huntress (Angels Weep For Goodreads) wrote: "Outside of my Harlequin Presents addiction (but I read those more for the angst and the over-the-top drama and storylines), I'm not r..."I so miss Judith Krantz and the big, glitzy, epic romances of the 80s. Does anybody write those anymore?
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@Arch, I understand. I disagree within the context of my posts, as I was pointing out a weakness of my own, but I do understand that you feel strongly about it.Perhaps my position would have been clearer – or, at least, less unpalatable, as it probably wouldn't be very clear if I didn't actually specify what my issue is – if I had phrased it this way: Although I know that written communication and verbal communication are processed differently by the brain, it bothers me that while I have taught myself to overcome my processing issues when I know a writer is an L2 English user, I haven't yet learnt to do that when I know a writer is an L1 English user. However, even though I am bothered by how I view the different writers, I still don't want to read books where grammar is an issue.
I don't know if that helps, but that's the basic idea I was trying to convey before.
Mod
You'll have to explain what the differences are for you, Arch. But if you mean what I think you mean, I am both. I have both published works that I wish had never seen print – or at least not with my name attached to them because I am not satisfied with their quality – and works that I have not yet shared with anyone because I am not satisfied with their quality, either. However, I don't differentiate between the two in my own mind.But, again, I don't differentiate between writer and author in that way, and perhaps you don't either. What did you mean?
Also, should this discussion be here? I saw that you earlier admonished another member for straying too far off the current topic. Should I start a new thread elsewhere to continue?
Mod
I do think there is middle ground between published and just for fun. As far as the editing, I think the moment someone puts a price tag on their work.....
And then there is the very sad reality that in this genre, writing IS under a microscope. Unfortunately, the frivolous mistakes that might be overlooked in mainstream are going to hold IR back. For that reason alone, I'd like to see IR writers in general make more of an effort
message 912:
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
(last edited Jul 18, 2014 09:59PM)
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It's really sad that expressing a valid critique of grammar/spelling is viewed as an attack or something. If we readers didn't love or give a fig about our genre, we'd just accept any old thing and shrug our shoulders. The fact is, we DO CARE. We love IR. We sometimes engage in massive flame wars on review blogs defending our books. We're just that passionate about it. Many of us have waited our whole lives to finally see ourselves reflected positively in romance books. So why not want the best? Why should I pay hard-earned money for a book filled with a bunch of simple spelling errors that a good spell-check could catch? We all know that anything PoC create will always be judged far harsher and dissected to within an inch of its life. It's like life--PoC have to be ten times as good to receive two times the credit. If we're even credited at all.
Mod
If self published books aren't seen by an editor, then why buy them?
An editor is not a grammar expert.
Tea wrote: "I'll also admit that I still find myself judging online strangers by their grammar. It doesn't matter how often I tell myself it's not a sign of stupidity; if I know that a person typing in non-standard English isn't a non-native speaker** my knee-jerk instinct is "stupid person sharing ideas – proceed with caution and scepticism"."I get it Tea, it's why that Blurred Lines parody video posted earlier was so funny. Being I'm the Queen Of Run On Sentences, my trigger obviously isn't grammar in itself, but more the overuse of text shortcuts outside of a texting environment is. Sentence structure or a missed word or two, on a message board is acceptable to me. I do have a tendency to "duh stamp" people who constantly misuse words on and offline. It drives me crazy.
Saying all this I do expect a certain level of "correctness" in a book. For me a book should have the same writing standards of a school paper on steroids. If you fail to not check and re-check for errors before turning it in, don't cry because it didn't receive a passing grade.
@Arch a good – or even just decent – trad publisher will take a book through many stages of editing, and yes, the author will absolutely be a participant in that.Also, some editors are grammar experts. It's part of the job for copy editors (also called sub editors) and/or line editors. Obviously, some are better than others, and different publishing houses have different standards. Often, those standards are more lax than what would be expected for a paper written by a university student (although, from what I've been hearing lately, even some universities are accepting less because some schools aren't properly preparing pupils), but I think most have a baseline they expect their authors and editors to meet.
That's not to say that some things don't get past author, editor and copy-editor. Mistakes happen. But mistakes are not the goal; clean copy is.
Just because something is self-published doesn't mean that it has to be poorly crafted.
@Savannah, I also think there's a middle ground. That's where I am now, I suppose – distancing myself from my poor past efforts, but also writing for fun while I grow to be someone whose writing I am proud of instead of embarrassed by.
FPD wrote: Why should I pay hard-earned money for a book filled with a bunch of simple spelling errors that a good spell-check could catch?This is how I feel about buying books.
@Pagan, I'm not proud of my knee-jerk reaction; I really wish I could overcome it the way I have my reaction to writers I know are writing in their second or third language. I mean, I feel that I should be able to re-work the way I perceive things, right? But I read books to learn or for pleasure, but I usually read for both reasons at once. I don't want to spend money on anything that will meet neither of those goals.
And poor grammar is (one of) my trigger(s).
I loved that video!!
Tea wrote: "@Pagan, I'm not proud of my knee-jerk reaction; I really wish I could overcome it the way have my reaction to writers I know are writing in their second or third language. I mean, I feel that I sho..."Oh when I compare books to a paper, I'm not even expecting college level, more like 5th grade. I don't want to want my trashy books feeling like homework. LOL
Mod
I have not read a lot of IR books, due to a lot of them being erotic books and I do not read those kind of books and because, I do not have a kindle, nook, etc. I like printed books.
I've read hundreds of books that had no discernible errors, so I'm lost on that one. Maybe a misprinted typo or something...but nothing I picked up on as a reader and said "That broad has no idea what that word means." LOL I think I'd probably lay prostrate on the floor if a Susan Elizabeth Phillips book had the kind of crap in it that we've been discussing.Tea- I feel you. Readers bring their peeves with them just like moviegoers, diners, hotel guests, etc. By their very nature BOOKS should literate LOL! Thats a reasonable and logical expectation for a person to have when they pick up a book. I mean, if we can't expect decent rudimentary grammar in what we read, what the hell is the point?
The simple fact is folks who dont have a halfway decent grasp on these things have no business attempting to market novels for public consumption WITHOUT having them properly edited. There. I said it. Thats my opinion. If a person is just writing as an outlet, sharing with friends or on a personal blog- who cares? But once you slap a cover on it, copyright and price tag- yes, you need to have your "ish" together in some very basic ways. If ya dont you are not only inviting criticism, you sort of deserve it as far as I'm concerned.
And just as we as AA people never asked to carry the burden of rep'ing our entire race? Doesn't matter-its still on each of us as individuals. I know every time I encounter someone who may not have had much interaction with a black person, I'm rep'ing. My husband and I moved to a fairly small town two years ago. There is not a single time that my children go out and interact with people publicly that we do not have people coming to us remarking on how wonderful our kids are. Are they? Yeah sure they are. But to the point where people need to point it out? Probably not lol. That is a result of them being surprised to see little black children running around playing appropriately and speaking to others with a proper level of respect. Rep'ing. Every time a writer throws out some story with horrible usage and grammar errors- they are rep'ing. This genre is too new with too many doors to knock down to let it slide.
Paganalexandria **wicked juices bubbling over** wrote: " Danielle The Book Huntress (Angels Weep For Goodreads) wrote: "Outside of my Harlequin Presents addiction (but I read those more for the angst and the over-the-top drama and storylines), I'm not r..."ITA with all of this. Huge peeve of mine to throw a career in with zero detail. He's a CEO. Oooookay. Half the time they don't even bother to tell you what the company DOES. Its a damn shame.
Arch wrote: Editors are not grammar experts, if they were, then every published book would be 100% perfect - there would be zero errors.Absolute rubbish and completely unfair!
I read your A-Z about you! post, so I believe you to be a follower of Christ. Now, I'm no expert on Christianity and its views across its different factions, but agree with the ones – that is, all of the ones I've ever spoken with about religion – who have said it's impossible for a human to achieve perfection.
tl;dr: Editors are imperfect humans beings, prone to making mistakes.
Elle wrote: "I so miss Judith Krantz and the big, glitzy, epic romances of the 80s. Does anybody write those anymore? "No. I think they were a product of their times. Like the 80s was the Dallas/Dynasty years. Those two shows both reflected the culture and later became the barometer for it. So authors like Krentz, Collins, Syndey Sheldon were huge during those years. Even Nora Roberts dabbled her toe in those types of books in her early mass market years.
I recently re-watched one of my all time favorite documentaries 'Paris is Burning' about the Drag culture in NYC during the 80s and the Drag Balls they walked and so much of what those young men aspired to was that Dallas/Dynasty lifestyle.
Susan Elizabeth Phillips' early books Fancy Pants and Glitter Baby probably are the closest that a current contemporary author has come to writing those types.
I miss them too. Just because they were long and detailed and lots of character and story and plot with rich layered storytelling. It almost feels like the immediacy that we got with things like the internet, smart phones etc. has translated to the types of books we are getting. It just doesn't feel like writers are taking their time anymore, but are rushing product to get a book out there.
LOL. So reading back my post I feel like an oldster waving my cane telling those kids to get off my lawn.
Tina wrote: "Elle wrote: "I so miss Judith Krantz and the big, glitzy, epic romances of the 80s. Does anybody write those anymore? "No. I think they were a product of their times. Like the 80s was the Dalla..."
When she isn't doing the Sidney Sheldon reboot
, Tilly Bagshawe's writing style is very reminiscient of that era, especially
,
. I suspect it's why she was chosen by Sheldon estate to continue his legacy.
Mod
Tina wrote: ...I miss them too. Just because they were long and detailed and lots of character and story and plot with rich layered storytelling. It almost feels like the immediacy that we got with things like the internet, smart phones etc. has translated to the types of books we are getting. It just doesn't feel like writers are taking their time anymore, but are rushing product to get a book out there.LOL. So reading back my post I feel like an oldster waving my cane telling those kids to get off my lawn.
.."
You said it exactly. I'd love to find a book that forced me to slow down again.
And I'll stand beside you on your lawn - LOL.
Arch wrote: "Tea, a lot of reviewers are hard on authors about grammar and punctuation, but what about the editors or copy editor? The copy editors job is to check for grammar, punctuation, etc. I think that i..."This isn't directed at me, but I'm chiming in. I would guess it's because it's not the editor's name, taking center stage on the cover. They get the kudos, and the blame. Especially when an author chooses to let the buying public serve as beta-readers. Once you go that route, you can't complain when the plebs throw tomatoes. The reviewers on this site especially aren't paid newspaper or magazine contributors. We're mostly readers giving off the cuff opinions on books we loved and hated. I for one, don't plan on researching all the editors names on every book, in order to assign the blame to the "correct" culprit for errors.
I haven't seen a lot of reviewers chastising only the author for SPaG if the book was traditionally published. But perhaps we're reading reviews for different books.Traditional publishing is a group effort. The breakdown can come at any point. Blame can be laid at any and all feet.
Yes, editors and copy editors should catch errors before a book goes to print. Authors should also correct copy when they receive their galleys. Neither thing happens all of the time. Mistakes doe happen. And in these days of fewer people doing the jobs that were once done by many, mistakes seem to happen all the more frequently.
However, it's the author whose name is on the books. Authors know, or should know, what they are getting into and should be prepared for the consequences.
Also, keep in mind that some writers achieve a certain status that (unfortunately, in a few famous cases) allow them a lot more control over their copy than is the norm. In those cases, it's all on the author.
And when a book is self-published, it's also the author's responsibility to ensure the book is properly edited. The difference is that they might not have the kind of support a trad publisher can provide. Yet, there are many self-publishers who have managed to do just as well or better.
Humanity: it's an interesting and diverse thing.
Edited to correct a letter in the acronym representing Spelling, Punctuation and Grammar.
I agree that self published authors should take a little more time editing if they want others to buy it. But I can understand how many may not have the resources to do so...
I've read plenty of trad pubbed books where I shout out the editing. I don't think it's all blame that should befall on an author, but how many editors do any of us really know by name? Me, I'm only aware of two. Stacey Whitman and FPD.
This is probably a agree to disagree argument, but I think all writers should strive to put the best work out there. Love it or not, POC authors work is being compared to our white counterparts, and their favor doesn't always come our way.
Not that this should be a definition of success. Unknowingly I think many attach a white persons success to the ideal success. As if it is the only level of success to achieve, and that we need white people to validate our work for it to matter.
Guess what? We don't. This genre stands on it's feet on it's own. While one shouldnt have to strive to be a jk Rowling , to be successful(which even her famous series tells a lot, even in all it's greatness)this genre should still strive to be the best!
I've read plenty of trad pubbed books where I shout out the editing. I don't think it's all blame that should befall on an author, but how many editors do any of us really know by name? Me, I'm only aware of two. Stacey Whitman and FPD.
This is probably a agree to disagree argument, but I think all writers should strive to put the best work out there. Love it or not, POC authors work is being compared to our white counterparts, and their favor doesn't always come our way.
Not that this should be a definition of success. Unknowingly I think many attach a white persons success to the ideal success. As if it is the only level of success to achieve, and that we need white people to validate our work for it to matter.
Guess what? We don't. This genre stands on it's feet on it's own. While one shouldnt have to strive to be a jk Rowling , to be successful(which even her famous series tells a lot, even in all it's greatness)this genre should still strive to be the best!
Mod
I think something should be added to what I wrote above.Publishing a novel traditionally is a group effort, but the author is the is the face to the effort. To go back to my car analogy from weeks ago, the author would be like the car make.
Let's say Teauto is a bran of car. Some system or other – let's say, brakes – in one of the cars in the Teauto line has a major design or manufacturing flaw. People who have bought Teasuto Olicars have been crashing into things. Teauto issues a recall so that Olicars can have their brakes repaired.
Now, are Olicar owners and the media going to blame the designer or factory worker for the bad brakes? No. They're going to blame Teauto as a whole.
The author whose name is on the book is most likely the one who's going to be treated like Teauto if readers think the book sucks. The editors and copy editors are most likely going to be that invisible designer or factory worker. Now, as I wrote before, some readers are going to wonder where the editors and copy editors are – much as some Olicar owners are going Teauto for hiring the wrong people to design or put the car together – but the fact remains that Teauto is the brand, and they are going to get the majority flack when the poop hits the fan because Teasuto is the one who would get the accolades if the poop had stayed in the toilet.
Arch wrote: I have yet to read a book that does not have errors. @Arch, since you said that already, I'm going to bow out now.
I don't know how to maintain a discussion with anyone who doesn't challenge my points, but instead repeats whatever statement inspired me to make a counter-point or explanation in the first place.
While I think it's great to be so firm in one's convictions, I don't know how to engage when there is no real back and forth. I don't understand the purpose of continuing under the circumstances.
Mod
The IR genre needs more stories that's not erotic. Everyone is not into erotic stories. The other genre has erotic stories, but they also has a huge percentage of stories that aren't erotic stories.
Does anyone know if there is an IR website that wants to know what readers are looking for? I would be more than happy to let them know that I want to see more non erotic stories written. I want to read about dangerous bad boys. Where are the nerds stories? An IR author doesn't' have to be Anne Stuart, Julie Garwood, Linda Howard, Suzanne Brockmann, etc., but can't they write stories after the authors theme?
The IR genre will fade away, if it doesn't cater to all IR readers.
Mod
@Arch, since you said that already, I'm going to bow out now.
I don't know how to maintain a discussion with anyone who doesn't ..."
I have made my point. We do not have to converse. We are done.
message 936:
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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Arch wrote: "I have yet to read a book that does not have errors."Go back and read Tolkien. Trust me, he was edited to within an inch of his life. There were a lot of books that had no errors in them. Of course, most are over twenty years old, lol.
The traditional publishing industry isn't what it used to be, when there were plenty of editors for every author. The big publishers have drastically cut back on their editing staff and it shows. And it isn't just spelling/grammar, but continuity issues, sub-plots that make no sense, characters behaving out of character especially in series books.
I will say a huge part of why the industry is bleeding money is their own idiocy. They were slow to respond to the popularity of e-books as well as the changing demographics of the country. They have never took certain genres more seriously (though at the same time they have realized just how much money romance readers are willing to shell out) nor nurtured rising talent. That Publishers Weekly article about black women being a huge, untapped and loyal reading audience is a wake-up call that is probably not being heeded. Before that, blogs/discussions/debates concerning diversity/inclusion should have had New York taking notice. So epubs, small pubs and self-pubs are taking Jaws-sized bites out of trad publishing. Of course New York thinks they're smart by snapping up indie authors, but not enough to stop the hemorrage.
message 937:
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
(last edited Jul 19, 2014 12:46PM)
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Arch, you are definitely correct on one thing, and that is for the need for more kinds of stories in the IR genre. You are not the only reader I've come across who prefers non-erotic stories. Even I would enjoy the occasional non-spicy work, for variety's sake alone. Unfortunately, it's not just our genre. Romance as a whole has let proverbial cat out of the bag. Erotic romance sells, just as Scottish romances once did. The erotic romance readership speaks with their blogs and their dollars. Fair or not, that fact holds more weight. I've seen so many Amazon and Goodreads reviews in which readers actually complain about the lack of explicitness in a romance. However, with IR since we're still in our relative infancy/pre-teen years, isn't quite as beholden to that mindset. So there is definitely room for non-erotic stories. I know Astrea Press has marketed themselves as a publisher of non-erotic romances. Only thing is, they're pretty much e-book which means you have no access to them.
Mod
Go back and read Tolkien. Trust me, he was edited to within an inch of his life. There were a lot of books that had no errors in..."
I have a Tolkien book that I have only bought as a collection item I will never read it. I do not read books to a movie. The inly way I will read a book to a movie, is if the book came out first and I bought it years before a movie was ever thought about or I did not know a movie was made, like I found out after I read For The Roses by Julie Garwood. The movie had a different name and was not good.nit did not line up to the book.
If I was to compare by Tolkein book to a grammar book, I will find errors.
On the editor vs. author thing I agree with Pagan, it is the author's name on the book. Therefore they get the praise and the blame. But my belief is that it is the author's fault in the lion's share of the cases. An at the end of the day it is her name on the product. An author has the right to push back on an editor's note they feel is incorrect or in the case of content editing, doesn't fit their vision of the story.And I agree, there have been trad pubbed books that may have had some typographical errors and even some grammatical errors, they can be attributed to smallish oversight or errors in typesetting or copy-editing. These type of errors are forgivable and can be attributed to human oversight and fall within approved margin of error, since nothing is perfect. I don't sweat these even in Indie pubbed books.
These are not the error I talk about when I talk about grammar and usage errors in a book. I am talking about books riddled with errors. The type of errors that come only with the strong suspicion that was no editor.
If the big six or their imprints put out those error filled books at the volume we are seeing them from self pubbed books, they would have been drummed out of business before you could blink twice.
If you look back at the publishing schedule of mass market rom authors in the 80s and 90s before indie presses and ebooks came along, they were putting out one book per year (or six months if writing was their only job). Going through a trad publisher with editors, revisions, a legal dept. to clear questionable content, art dept. to create covers, professionals to create blurbs, mrketing and distribution etc. was an industry investment and acted as a measure of quality assurance.
Nowadays we are seeing indie writers pumping out books once every few weeks, sometimes. You can't convince me some of these book are going through any sort of editing process except done by the author themselves. What is worse, I have seen on the author's note on Amazon, pleas from the author for readers to contact them if they see any errors or formatting uses. They are using their readers to crowd source editing.
Mod
message 941:
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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Arch wrote: "Maybe Astrea Press will have books in print one day or even library ebooks."You could check their site. Unfortunately, print books are more expensive than e-books for small/indie pubs.
Tina wrote: "...I have seen on the author's note on Amazon, pleas from the author for readers to contact them if they see any errors or formatting uses. They are using their readers to crowd source editing. "Tina, this right here is exactly what fuels my reading frustration sometimes. To quote my favorite drag queen Bianca Del Rio, "Not today Satan, not today!" lol
Unfortunately, errors are not entirely colorblind. IR is going to be held to a higher standard-thats just the nature of America. Just as its beens said- we have to work twice as hard and be twice as good. That didnt come out of nowhere, its based on history.IR is the strange dude knocking at the door. Would you open yours to an unknown, unkempt, stank a**, soiled clothing, suspect lookin guy and invite him in? Cranking out substandard material IS that stankin' guy at mainstream's door. They see him show up time and again lookin like that, no effort to clean himself up? They arent even going to entertain the thought of an invitation inside. I dont care if he sings like an angel and does a stellar soft shoe routine.
Savannah- Quad Motherin' Book Readin' Diva wrote: "Unfortunately, errors are not entirely colorblind. IR is going to be held to a higher standard-thats just the nature of America. Just as its beens said- we have to work twice as hard and be twice a..."Come on now, Savanah...the soft shoe would impress a little. lol
Paganalexandria **wicked juices bubbling over** wrote: "Tina, this right here is exactly what fuels my reading frustration sometimes. To quote my favorite drag queen Bianca Del Rio, "Not today Satan, not today!" lol" OMG, you did not just name check the fabulous Ms. Bianca Del Rio?!?!? Love you!
Mod
Every book has errors, so yes errors are colorblind. No one can say that a person can only find errors in black authors IR books. Authors from other races writes IR books and IR books aren't limited to bw/wm books.
Maybe, I should start comparing books that I read to a grammar book and write grammar reviews, to show what I am taking about, when I say that every book have errors.
Tina wrote: "Paganalexandria **wicked juices bubbling over** wrote: "Tina, this right here is exactly what fuels my reading frustration sometimes. To quote my favorite drag queen Bianca Del Rio, "Not today Sata..."Guilty, as charged. lol I just love her to death.
@ Arch there are several IR books that are not erotic reads. You mentioned in an earlier comment that you don't own a Kindle or Nook. If you would like I can recommend some from my collection of printed books. Just a suggestion if you're interested. I think as of late as new and some of the more seasoned authors in the IR genre publish new books they are leaning more towards erotica. A few years back there were only a handful of IR authors that published erotic books. Possibly being under pressure from certain publishing companies to sell books may have a little something to do with it because sex does sell. Personally I have no issue with erotic reads or light BDSM as long as the stories are written well.
message 949:
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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Arch:The Astrea Press website:
http://www.astraeapress.com/about.html
Unfortunately, they are strictly e-books. You should write them and ask if they're considering books in print. I'm sure you're not the only reader who still prefers physical books. They don't have a lot of IR at this time but I read Royal Opposites some time ago and it was pretty good:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Mod
I like reading contemporary suspense romance books.
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Fans of Interracial Romance
Books mentioned in this topic
Cold Warriors (other topics)A Thankful Love (other topics)
Against the Odds (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Jewel Adams (other topics)Tilly Bagshawe (other topics)
Judith Krantz (other topics)
