Discussion: Go Tell it on the Mountain by James Baldwin

[Hazel]

William wrote: "Oh yeah, Hazel. Go Tell, as Rona points out in her intro.."draws heavily on his own intense childhood experiences"..and is semi autobiographical. ANd since these were real characters or at the least amalgamations of real people in Baldwins lives..."

I wonder then, if his stepfather was alive when this was first published. Wouldn't have helped the relationship much.

[Rona]

I think of all the women characters in 'Go Tell It', Deborah was the most tragic to me---and also, interestingly, the most 'flat' in the sense that we never really get to hear her story / point of view. She makes me think of other characters in African-American literature---the 'survivor' woman who has endured incredible pain and suffering at the hands of men and / or White people---like Beloved, Precious, etc. although Deborah seems to accept her lot with an incredible amount of strength and silence. I do feel that if Deborah (or even Esther's) story was more present here (e.g. if Baldwin gave them their own chapters the way he did Elizabeth and Florence), they might have just 'taken over' the book and pulled focus away from John's immediate family. Clearly, Deborah and Esther both endured much hardship but found their ways to survive in a harsh, harsh world. (sorry if I'm being vague but I don't want to include any big spoilers!)

[Mistinguette]

I am struck by John's/Baldwin's ability to imagine such fully dimensional lives for women - their pain, renewal,sacrifice, dignity and source of strength - yet his male characters are hard to get 'inside' of, hard to really know and understand. We seems to observe his father & brother, Elisha &Richard; but even when we witness their most private thoughts and acts we are often left to guess at their half-sensed motivations. I think this is a commentary on how John experiences masculinity as he stands on the threshold of manhood: as something that obscures mens ability to know and love each other, their partners and children, and themselves. If these are the available choices, what kind of man can he be?

This strong exploration and critique of gender/sex roles is rarely raised in discussions of Baldwin's writing (except to support some notion about Baldwin's sexuality) but we all seem to be experiencing it very strongly as we (re)read Go Tell It.

It does make me wonder: if this story feels true, what did it mean to love men (especially black men living under Jim Crow) whose oppression is so great that they could not bear to see/know/love themselves?

[Rebecca]

I am almost through Book 2. You have a good point about Deborah's story being tragic Rona. I though there wasn't much to say for her because Gabriel wanted nothing to do with her nor did he want to acknowlege her. I was left to wonder how she died, I guess for me it wasn't very clear.

[Hazel]

Lots to think about.
Mistinguettes wrote: "I am struck by John's/Baldwin's ability to imagine such fully dimensional lives for women - their pain, renewal,sacrifice, dignity and source of strength - yet his male characters are hard to get 'inside' of, hard to really know and understand. We seems to observe his father & brother, Elisha &Richard; but even when we witness their most private thoughts and acts we are often left to guess at their half-sensed motivations...."

This blindness seems to me to reflect Gabriel's lack of insight, lack of self-awareness,and self-knowledge. Gabriel is, of course, John's model of masculinity, so John is learning that a man does not really see himself, nor does he see another person. (I remember a single point at which Gabriel was honest with himself. He recognised that he felt hatred for Deborah.)

It does make me wonder: if this story feels true, what did it mean to love men (especially black men living under Jim Crow) whose oppression is so great that they could not bear to see/know/love themselves?

I suppose the answer is in Deborah's story, in Elizabeth's story (and I'm thinking of Richard as well as Gabriel), in Esther's story, in Rachel's story (am I right? Is that Gabriel's mother's name?) Another reason to cling to one's faith.

[William]

For those who have finished the book..is the book an affirmation or damnation of deep blindly held religious (read pentecostal type) convictions? Or somewhere in between? This question can't be answered unless one has read the ending. I feel that Baldwin wrote a bit of a "cop out" with John given the scathing and tragic stories that proceeded the final resolution.

[Rona]

"It does make me wonder: if this story feels true, what did it mean to love men (especially black men living under Jim Crow) whose oppression is so great that they could not bear to see/know/love themselves?"

Wow, Mistinguettes! This is really deep. Don't really have an articulate response right now but just wanted to acknowledge how much your comment/question resonated with me. Hopefully I'll have more time to write later.

And William, I'd like to come back to your question as part of the wrap-up, although others should feel free to respond now. It's a great question.

[Hazel]

William wrote: "For those who have finished the book..is the book an affirmation or damnation of deep blindly held religious (read pentecostal type) convictions? Or somewhere in between? This question can't be ans...I feel that Baldwin wrote a bit of a "cop out" with John given the scathing and tragic stories that proceeded the final resolution. "

Someone referred to this earlier in the discussion. I replied that I thought Baldwin was acknowledging that their religious faith was adaptive for this group of people. Individuals and groups living under such soul-stifling oppression need to believe in something. What Baldwin described so clearly was what happens when your faith expresses mainly your own fear and blindness. As Mistinguettes said, their oppression is so great that they could not bear to see/know/love themselves? Florence pointed it out to Gabriel, too. 'By their fruit shall you know them.' (Someone may recall chapter and verse on that one.)

We have seen many examples of the paranoia that can be expressed in Christian and non-Christian faiths!

And, William, I thought John's resolution was entirely credible for a 14-year-old, swept away by his emotional experience. My sense was that this would be the beginning of John's story, and there would be a very difficult road ahead.

[Hazel]

It does make me wonder: if this story feels true, what did it mean to love men (especially black men living under Jim Crow) whose oppression is so great that they could not bear to see/know/love themselves?

And I think loving is hard!

There's a line from The Prophet, on giving. It goes something like 'There are those who give with joy, and that joy is their reward, and there are those who give with pain,and that pain is their baptism.....' Perhaps women would do all their loving of these men with pain. (Again, Deborah's story!)

'Deborah,' he asked,'what you been thinking all this time?' She smiled. 'I been thinking,' she said, 'how you better commence to tremble when the Lord, He gives you your heart's desire.' She paused. 'I'd been wanting you since I wanted anything. And then I got you.'

[Rebecca]

I just finished today. William that is a great question and definatley has me thinking and wondering about my answear.

Has anyone read Naughts and Crosses by Malorie Blackman? I think that could make a a great dicussion read.

[William]

SPOILER ALERT

I'm a little less strident in my criticism now that Hazel has reminded me that John is a 14 year old boy. I can't expect him to react negatively or disown his adult mentors as you would expect a grown man to do. John was intelligent and observant of the outlandish behaviors of the adults around him but what choice did he really have other than to join them in the end?

[Hazel]

William wrote: "SPOILER ALERT

I'm a little less strident in my criticism now that Hazel has reminded me that John is a 14 year old boy. I can't expect him to react negatively or disown his adult mentors as you wo..."

The reviewer I mentioned earlier said that he was initially disappointed that John didn't strike out on his own. And then he reminded himself how little choice there was for a black man/boy in that society, at that time. If we take it that John grew up to be James Baldwin, what great courage he had!

[Rona]

Thanks everyone for the lively and interesting discussion so far. We've talked about a lot of the themes in 'Go Tell It': religious fervor and oppression, race / gender, the role of the female characters of the book, etc.

I'd like to move on to the third and final section of the book:

Part Three: The Threshing-Floor

Discussion prompt: We return to John's point of view in this last section of the novel. How did Baldwin's description of John's conversion, or spiritual awakening, strike you? How did this final section serve as the culmination of everything that came before, or not? Did you feel a sense of resolution---for John, for his family, for yourself---at the end of the book?

Again, feel free to discuss other things that strike your fancy. I will also post a final discussion prompt next Sunday that will ask us to discuss the book overall.

[Hazel]

I've said before that I think this 'resolution' seems to be a beginning for John, rather than the end of a story. In fact, it's going to be another chapter in the life of the family, isn't it? Gabriel will be seeing John as a rival and will need to act against him. Roy will be acting out more criminal/violent behaviour and hatred for his father. Elizabeth? Well, William, she's already suffered a great deal for her children. Do you think it likely she will leave Gabriel?

And of course, John has to make his spiritual journey. He's already wrestled with the wish to no longer be the son of his father, but the son of his Heavenly Father, the King, and has recognised that even if Gabriel were dead and punished in hell, he, John, would not be free.

And, even then, it would not be finished. The everlasting father.

Earlier, Elizabeth seems to see a dark road ahead for John.

'Yes, Mama. I'm going to try to love the Lord.'
At this there sprang into his mother's face something startling, beautiful, unspeakably sad - as though she were looking far beyond him at a long, dark road, and seeing on that road a traveller in perpetual danger.

I see it too.

[Rona]

I thought it was very interesting for Baldwin to conclude the book in this way. Most of this final section is quite lyrical and rapturous---which for me at least is different than the rest of the novel as well as the bulk of Baldwin's fiction that I've read. I also thought it was interesting because I'd nearly forgotten about John as I read in the second section about the equally interesting histories of his step-father Gabriel, mother Elizabeth, and Aunt Florence, and was almost jarred back into the 'present' time of the book when the third section rolled out. Was a strong reminder that these three adults' lives and experiences were being played out in some way through the revelation/religious ecstasy of John's character, that his family's beliefs, hopes, passions and fears were being carried by him into this next phase of his life. That John is not privy to any of these stories----Baldwin did not, for example, choose to have each of the adults share their life histories with John and we can guess he is largely in the dark about them---is even more ironic and telling because regardless of his awareness of these histories, he is still carrying their weight and impact in his young body, and living through/with the consequences of these adults' choices everyday.

[Hazel]

Rona wrote: "I thought it was very interesting ....even more ironic and telling because regardless of his awareness of these histories, he is still carrying their weight and impact in his young body, and living through/with the consequences of these adults' choices everyday."

I agree Rona. Throughout the book I thought Baldwin was telling us about the 'sins of the fathers' and demonstrating how they impact on future generations. I often find that our best writers are aware of personality development, and the powerful impact in human families of the things we keep secret, or leave unspoken.

[Rona]

Final Discussion Prompt

Ok, folks, this is the last week that we will be discussing Go Tell it On the Mountain. I appreciate everyone's comments, which were thoughtful, insightful and always fascinating. I want to end with two somewhat related points/questions:

First, James Baldwin once said about race relations in the United States: "We seem to feel, at bottom, that the truth about white and black men in America is so terrible that it cannot really be told. But the truth of the past is really all we have to guide us in the present. One's only got to look back to see that, though we certainly have cause for shame, we have, equally, cause for pride."

While this quote was about racism, Baldwin also accomplishes an epic 'looking back' to the past in 'Go Tell it on the Mountain', through the eyes of Florence, Gabriel, and Elizabeth. How does this looking back 'guide' John in the present? How does it guide his Aunt Florence and his parents? Who is transformed at the end of the book? Who stays the same?

And then, I would also like to revisit / tie-in William's earlier question about whether the book is "an affirmation or damnation of deep blindly held religious (read pentecostal type) convictions? Or somewhere in between?" It's not possible to read 'Go Tel lt' without discussing religion, and how religion also is part of our glorious and tragic collective past, as well as our present.

[William]

I have no real world experience with fundemental religion. It would be easy to sit back and poke fun and criticize but that would be a mistake. It obviously holds an enormous appeal or there would not be so many adherents. That Baldwin, in my view, can offer up a critic in which no character escapes unschathed or is shown without some sort of duplicity, and still have the most innocent of the charaters be willingly inducted into the sect is a sort of minor miricle in itself. Its a plausible ending but in my first glance quite distasteful. Why spend a whole book catalogueing the sins of the fathers and mothers only to have the child follow the same path. But then one must examine causation. Is the church responsible for the sin or is the sinner taking refuge in the church. Is it possible for John to join a group of sinners, masquerading as Saints, and stay relatively sin free? As Hazel has pointed out even his mother Elizabeth doubts this outcome. But we also understand that the "sins" of Gabriel, Florence and the others did not happen in a vacuum. The daily racism and oppression of the characters hovers like a constant electric hum in the background but sometimes reaching ear drum piercing deciblesin certain scenes. This John cannot escape for it is his birthright. While looking back on Johns circumstances of poverty, having a family that forgot his birthday and then could offer only a few coins in celebration, is sad, looking forward to the rest of his life is tragic.

[Hazel]

I wonder, William , whether John really has a choice at all. Racism and oppression are, indeed, his birthright. The way of the Saints, that 'dark road' as he tries to 'love the Lord' are also his birthright. My sense is that the two go together. Remember those preachers with whom Gabriel first performed? Remember how much power they had, how self-satisfied they were? Gabriel could never achieve that status in the wider society. So yes, I think the church provides a refuge, and also an opportunity, a route to power.

[Rona]

I have a slightly different take on John's conversion/revelation at the end of the book. I agree with William that at first it seems strange if not downright disturbing that Baldwin would spend most of the novel pointing out the hypocrisies of people like Gabriel and other churchfolk, and then have the protagonist---an innocent young man---follow in their footsteps.

Or, does John actually follow in their footsteps? This is where I wish I had more time to do a closer read of 'Go Tell It', especially the final section.

What I've heard from many folks---although I have no experience either with pentecostal/ecstactic religious traditions---about their experiences of 'coming to Jesus' or 'being saved' sounds very similar to what John experienced in the last section. Indeed, the approval and affirmation and 'welcome to the club' remarks he gets from Elisha and the Saints affirm that they he has made a rite of passage that they all have as well.

But then again, from the more mystical/contemplative religious traditions (which I know a little bit more of), every 'enlightenment' is different. Everyone's path is different, and although there may be similarities in the moment of ecstasy---in how it felt, what people 'saw', how they experienced the divine---what comes after is completely unique and individual.

Rather than feeling that the ending is tragic, I actually feel a lot of hope for John Grimes at the end of the novel. He's finally come into his own as a man---even his oppressive father, Gabriel, no longer seems to have power over him. And that he's found Jesus as part of this rite of passage seems even more of a triumph against his previous oppression---because I am left with a sense that he will take his spiritual conversion and do something different with it, and NOT just repeat the cycles of hypocrisy and abuse that were handed down to him.

[Wilhelmina]

My view is closer to Rona's. There is no indication that John "joined" the sect, but rather that he had a genuine spiritual experience. Baldwin goes into great detail, describing what John is experiencing that no one but John would perceive. If Baldwin had wanted us to see John as capitulating to external forces, I don't think that he would have written it in this way. I viewed John's spiritual awakening, within the context of the story, as a legitimate and empowering one. It gave him independence from an externally imposed religion. I found the end of the book to be very hopeful. I saw John's experience, coming as it did om his birthday, as the beginning of his life as an independent, self-defined man.

[Janet]

Only finished reading the novel this weekend; and see both tragedy and hope for John. The religious elements ring true for me. I'm a Jew who's spent about 5 years in a Baptist/UCC congregation -(long story) - but the descriptions of church/church people in Go Tell It very much resonate with the ways in which I see faith/religion interwoven into the lives of people at my church. Need to go back, now that I've finished reading and really have a look at everyone's comments. (had only been scanning them). What I want to understand more/reflect on, maybe, is how, in the face of such brutal racism, people can continue. Or maybe that's a piece of how faith is woven in?

[Hazel]

Janet wrote: "-What I want to understand more/reflect on, maybe, is how, in the face of such brutal racism, people can continue. Or maybe that's a piece of how faith is woven in?"

I imagine, Janet, that under those conditions, people couldn't go on without faith in something. I mentioned before that I'd been reading The Skull Mantra, where Tibetan Buddhists are described, struggling against Chinese oppression. Different religion, different world view, but I think the role of faith is the same.

[Hazel]

Rona and Mina, I agree about John's path being his own, and that he may not follow the hypocrisy and greed etc of his elders. But I recall Gabriel's spiritual awakening as a young man, and how powerful it felt to him. (I've returned the book, so can't find quotes.) He was just as moved, and just as hopeful and thought he'd embarked on a new life.

We know where his road led.

[Mistinguette]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I feel a strong current of judgment among us against the faith community John describes. I have learned much about the spiritual and historical nature of African-American Holiness Pentecostal communities since I the first time I read Go Tell It On The Mountain, and it shapes how I understand the novel and situate the characters in it.

The emergence of Holiness, COGIC, Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal religious orders co-occur with the Great Migration, and cannot be seen separate from that experience. These Pentecostal churches replaced the high accountability, deeply connected, inter-generational place-based relationships that black people had in the antebellum South.

John has no context for this experience of close relatedness and sees it only as suffocation. As Rona points out, he is not privy to the stories that reveal these communities as places that care for the abandoned, the sick & aging; that welcome home the prodigal and help him to find a place; or that recognize the gift of literacy and vision and offer it a pulpit because Jim Crow left no other outlet for such a gift. So we experience John's awareness of hypocrisy among the Saints but not the deep experience of intimacy, the constant practice of humility, and the ability to depend on community that they offer. John's story is told from the threshold between childhood and adulthood: we see this story as a child would, but an adult John might tell this more complex story differently.

For all the woundedness and hypocrisy of the Saints, the only character who lacks the resilience to survive the brutality of Jim Crow is Richard - who is unaffiliated with that community. I have no doubt that this character is modeled after Richard Wright, whom Baldwin saw as the model of black masculine dignity. It is telling that Baldwin both admires Richard/Richard and also could not imagine such a man being emotionally present, integrated into any sort of community, or able to live to tell his tale.

[Hazel]

Mistinguettes wrote: "
For all the woundedness and hypocrisy of the Saints, the only character who lacks the resilience to survive the brutality of Jim Crow is Richard - who is unaffiliated with that community. I have no doubt that this character is modeled after Richard Wright, whom Baldwin saw as the model of black masculine dignity. It is telling that Baldwin both admires Richard/Richard and also could not imagine such a man being emotionally present, integrated into any sort of community, or able to live to tell his tale"

Good point, Mistinguettes. We haven't talked much about poor Richard, have we? I referred to him in post 55, but didn't want to say too much, for fear of spoilers. Richard's story is also part of John's birthright, albeit unknown to John. (And of course, as Rona pointed out, the hypocrisy is also unknown to John. He hasn't been told the family secrets. Does he even know Gabriel isn't his father?)

[Janet]

ah. interesting points. Richard, yes. I didn't sense our judging faith communities, but maybe I've not read closely enough. Mistinguettes' post raises really compelling questions - what is gained through the community of faith, what might be lost, what strength does the community afford its members, but what does it lose if it's too "closed off" from others? Is Richard a victim and/or *more* of a victim than others, differently? I suspect victim isn't quite the question here. Referring to people damaged by systemic and institutional racism as "victims" isn't helpful either. other thoughts?

[ColumbusReads]

Growing up in a Pentecostal household in Ecorse, MI, I was struck by how authentic
the church depictions are in this book as well as other Baldwin writings. Baldwin attended an Episcopalian and Baptist Church (Abyssinian Baptist in Harlem) before finally joining Mount Calvary Pentecostal in the late 30's so he was exposed to other denominations as well. The Threshing-Floor chapter was so real to me and resonated so profoundly that it brought me back to Holy Tabernacle COGIC in the late 60's/70's. There always seems to be a tendency to overly exaggerate the Pentecostal experience when its depicted various places. I didn't feel that at all in GTIOTM.

[Rashida]

To your point, Mistinguettes, I'd kind of stopped chiming in on the discussion because every time I thought I had something to say, I felt like I was formulating negative comments about the religion, and I didn't want to get out of hand with it. I look for happy endings in books. I know they don't always come, and I like many a book without a happy ending, but as I'm reading, I'm constantly wondering, "how can this story end well for the characters that I've grown attached to." I've got to admit, my happy ending for John did NOT contain the conversion experience. After so much pain and heartache had been suffered in his family, I thought that striking out on his own path would be the only way he could have a shot at happiness. But, of course, you're also right that the religious community can offer tremendous support and opportunity that to this point John had not necessarily been privy to. But, I think that I was looking for John to make a decision for the good of himself, and it seemed that based on his knowledge of the church the other way would be the way to go. But, Bill also makes a good point that the child is 14, and that's awfully young to be rebelling (successfully) against everything you've been raised with. And perhaps Baldwin's point is that there can be a balance, and John needs to go through this side of the scale in order to be able to return to an equilibrium with his faith and his desire to be accepted in America-at-large.

Did anyone else catch the question that he throws out to- I believe- Elisha on the walk home. Where asks that he stand by him even if he waivers on the path of righteousness? That's not a direct quote, as I've returned the book, but something along those lines transpired, for sure. I do think that John knows that one day, perhaps soon, he will find himself going afoul of this denominations strictures about what is the right way, and he is already seeking for his community to accept him, as he is, and allow to remain a part of this community even if he takes a path that diverges from tradition.

As for Richard, how heartbreaking was that part of the story? But really for Elizabeth. Maybe it's just my loose modern morals, but as I was reading her tale, I couldn't see anything she was doing wrong. And for her to have to suffer so tremendously, then blame herself for everything, and then have that unfounded guilt drive her into the misery of her current relationship. I shuddered for her. I don't think John was told about his parentage. She wouldn't want to pass on the burden, Gabriel wouldn't want to admit the shame.

[Hazel]

Thank you for your thoughts. You all make me want to go back and read this book again from the beginning! So much to think about.

1. As I recall, the young Baldwin had this kind of spiritual awakening and went on to become a teenaged preacher. Then, in his late teens he fell in love with writing, and out of love with the church. I would suspect that his sexuality, and his troubled relationship with his preacher stepfather were issues. If John's story is a reflection of life, then Baldwin the writer already knows where John's road will lead, to triumph or disaster, tragedy or hope. Will he be disappointed that the Saints don't accept him 'as he is'? Will he be overcome by the temptations of the white city, the wider society, the wider world? Will he outgrow the faith of a 14-year-old?

2. Rashida, how come you think Richard's story was really heartbreaking for Elizabeth? The man died!! :-) She survived to make what life she could for herself and their son. I think she epitomises that strong, black woman image that can seem such a burden to those of us who are black women. How on earth am I supposed to be that resilient, endure that much?

[Rebecca]

I felt when I finished that I would definatley be reading this book again. So much to disect and learn from. I loved that it really is the kind of book you could read again and again.

[Mistinguette]

I agree with Columbus, The Threshing Floor is the perfect title of the last chapter. John's spiritual awakening requires him to sort the wheat from the chaff; to separate what is nourishing and what is of no liberating value in his faith, his family heritage, the boundaries of his community.

And yet, what is good and nourishing is hardly clear. Some part of John wants to be a good son, yet Elisha seems better poised (and aptly named) to inherit Gabriel's mantle. John understands the community of Saints to be both a cloister and a prison, but he longs for freedom, a word he does not even know. And his birth father's longing for freedom - intellectual freedom, freedom from the burden of racism - left him with two choices: death or imprisonment, neither of which are the choices of a free man.

Rashida, you raised up John's question about whether one can be loved by the Saints while "straying from the path", which brought to mind for me Tonex, the young, black gospel wunderkind who has lost his career because he came out. The answer in 1951, and again in 2010, is still no. Makes me wonder if Tonex has ever read Go Tell It. Surely he needs to know that he has a history; surely he deserves to know that some young black Pentecostal gay son-of-a-preacher came before him as a powerful voice in the world, and lived to tell the tale.

[Rebecca]

We have come along ways but still have along ways to go It's a shame.

[Hazel]

Do young people read Baldwin in school now? I think all youngsters could learn from this.

[Rona]

What a fabulous last round of comments. Thanks everyone for being part of the discussion. I just want to say it was a pleasure (and a very easy job!) moderating this discussion. I'm glad that our first 'Classics' read/discussion seemed to go so well!

I'm curious if there's anything you all wished we had addressed that we didn't get to? Any salient themes, concepts, ideas that Baldwin explored that you wished we'd talked about?

Also, if you have any feedback for me on how to improve future discussions (especially of 'Classics'), I would love to hear those. Feel free to respond here or to message me privately.