Fans of Norah Lofts discussion
Layer Wood +other NL locations
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Layer Wood Map
message 51:
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Barbara
(last edited Feb 19, 2010 05:33PM)
(new)
Feb 19, 2010 05:32PM
I have a Rupert Hatton, but only a Carousel pb published in 1972. It is charmingly illustrated , but not, alas, with a map
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I thought Muchanger was a village, but in my pb copy of Devil In Cleveley it says " All through the late autumn and summer ...there was much coming and going between Clevely and the big houses in the neighbourhood: Ockley and Mortiboys and Merravey , Greston Park and Muchanger and Nettleton New House" ( p111)
That pretty makes it certain it's a house doesn't it? , though there could also be a village of the same name of course. I'll search a bit more for distances etc
Werner, please note on post 55 that Rupert Hatton doesn't have a map, so you can leave it off the list.Barbara, thanks for looking up Muchanger. Yes, it does sound like a house, but maybe if not even a village, it could have other named buildings. I believe Top Farm is a part of Ockley Manor. All of this research really makes me appreciate whoever puts together an index. Wouldn't it be great if we had an NL Index to all of her work?
I still haven't heard a word from the Bury St. E. Library, so this evening I sent an email to a manager of some sort with her own address. We'll see if she answers.
Mary, if you still want to research a book for the map, I don't believe anyone has chosen "Pargeters" yet. (If anyone did, please speak up.) Do you have that book? We're especially looking for order of placement, directions, and what is next to what.
No maps in mine either! I went into our local library and looked, and they have no NL books in there! How sad! It is only a very small library though - very small!We will get there in the end though! We are enthusiastic!
Yes, we will get there! I wish we could all get to Bury St. Edmunds! I just worked up a mini-poster to send to their museum and library along with a letter. They should go out in the mail on Monday. How long would it be till they got from the USA to England? Then how long until someone goes through their pile of mail, and hopefully posts them? If we can just get one enthused member from Bury!When I send my email address to the ;ibrary in Bury, should I be adding .us or .usa at the end? I noticed that theirs ends in .uk - maybe that is why I am not getting an answer from them. I will try to look this up and try again.
Mary, you're a doll! By the way, I had a call this morning from my SIL in Baltimore, talking about the piles of trucked snow there.In working on the map yesterday, I thought I had 14 named locations in some sort of reasonable order, and then I came across a description from one of you that made the whole thing topsy-turvy! Map attempt #3 coming up.
Then I'd better get to work on it if I want to stay a doll! Here are some notes I scribbled on the fly leaf when I first read Pargeters:The Fennels were already established at Ockley by 1624. (p 5 of my 1984 hardback)
Muchanger and Minsham St. Mary were adjacent--the house Adam Woodley is working on at the beginning is on property that lies in both parishes (but evidently the house is in Minsham). (7) Th etwo parishes also have the same rector (40).
Layer Wood is described as "the shortest cut to anywhere" (34)and as having "not had in recorded time any owner" (67).
Ockley, Clevely,and Nettleton are all in the same direction from Muchanger and Minsham. (48)
From Pargeters, a road leads east to a fork, the left tine going to Muchanger and the right to Minsham All Saints. "The church stood isolated on the boundary between the two villages." (53)
Baildon is inland of Layer Wood, and "of what we called Our Villages, Nettleon was farthest from Pargeters." (75)
The shortest route between Pargeters and the Borley farm lies through Layer Wood (a finger of it, I suppose, since they're close neighbors). 128
The Baildon Grammar School moved "fro its old, cramped presmises" in the 1630s or 40s (Sarah Woodley-Mercer recounts that her father "sent men and horses and wagons to assist in the move"). (135)
Stratton Strawless is mentioned as "a drear and isolated village" but not located in relation to anything else. (252)
"Apparently there was at Nine Elms a point from which some of Pargeters' upper windows were visible." (But where is Nine Elms?) (254)
Bywater is just too far from Pargeters to get there and back in a day. (258)
Baildon Assembly Rooms in planning phase in the summer of 1664 (281)
That's all I have from my first reading, when I was thinking of the history of the area as well as the geography. I'll see what more I can find!
Meanwhile, here in Baltimore most of the streets and sidewalks are clear, but we walk between mountains of dirty snow. I shan't be surprised if there's still some of it on the ground on Easter!
I have never heard of Nine Elms or somebody else's Greston Park. I think we should concentrate more on the main "character" locations such as important houses, manors, etc. which figure into several of her books. My failing memory of that original map is that it probably only had 8 or 10 named properties around Layer Wood. But I also think it was published early enough that half of her bookis weren't written yet. I already have, from everybody's research, probably 25 locations in that area, but I seriously doubt we will be able to figure out where they all fit in. All of this is wonderfully helpful, but I think I am losing my mind! Oh, here you are calling Muchanger a village, and Barbara found it in a list of houses on page 111 of The Devil in Clevely. Soon we will all be crazy, but in great company!
I think Muchanger is a parish! Whether it's an actual village or not, evidently enough people live there to share a church or a rector with Minsham St. Mary.
Here is more info from Bless This House.This is from the story "The Governess"
The Fulgars lived in Nettleton (the Evening Star is at Nettleton where Luke drank)
When Luke and Deborah took Luella to see Merravay, they went across their field and said :-
"It will be a bit miry at Vinefields Bottom (I have never come across this place before in any book!). Best go through the village (Nettleton????) and up at the front of the house.
From the Fulgar's field the ground sloped to the swampy bit.
At the top of the rise there was a cornfield, and on the farther side was "Layer Wood", and to the left slightly downhill stood the house.
There was a Right of Way through "Layer Wood", and it was the shortest path between the villages of Nettleton and Clevely.
(Quite a lot oft he Merravay estate was taken up by Layer Wood.)"
This is all of the information from Bless This House, that is relevant.
It may be that we are giving you too much information Sylvia, and it is all mind boggling! I do hope that we can finally get somewhere with this though!
Good luck!
More great stuff! Before I attempt another map, I will try to catagorize everything, maybe alphabetically, and keep everything sorted by place as you turn in more information. I will also keep your paragraphs intact because some places seem to be listed in an order. Hope you are having, or had, a lovely and blessed Sunday.
Sylvia, sorry to say I'm only checking in here now -- Goodread's e-mail program is messed up right now, so some of us aren't receiving notifications of new posts in our groups. Thanks for this list! Now that I can use it for reference, I'll get on World Catalog again this evening, and see what I can learn. I'll try to post the results late tonight or tomorrow morning.
I may have struck pay dirt already! Does anyone have the 1986 Coronet omnibus edition titled The Suffolk Trilogy? (The 10-digit ISBN is 03403889354, and the 13-digit one is 9780340389355; it has 848 pp., and a genealogical chart.) It's a paperback edition, according to World Catalog; but it is explictly described as having "1 map!" Can anyone say definitely that this is NOT the map we're hunting?
Speaking of Goodreads' email being messed up, I've tried twice to post a comment on the How Far to Bethlehem? thread that Werner just started. Both times, I received a message saying that the thread doesn't exist--even though, the second time, at least two others had posted comments. Can anyone help?
Werner - I have ALMOST the very edition of the Suffolk Trilogy that you describe. ALAS there is no map! I do have the genealogical chart, though it isn't nearly as involved as you would expect. It just shows Sir Geoffrey Tallboys, his two wives, 5 children and 1 grandchild.I could not find the word "Omnibus" anywhere on the book, and the ISBN No, given is just slightly different. Mine is: 0-340-38935-4
All three books are listed on the copyright page, each with the notation, Coronet edition. Right below that is reads: This edition 1986.
Do you think that possibly the Omnibus edition was a more deluxe edition to include a map? Could you recheck and see if my numbered edition is listed separately? I will order it if I can find a listing. Probably a lot of us will! I do have one worry only because the illus. family tree is so brief, I wonder if the map mentioned is of all of Layer Wood, or possibly something else, like maybe Sir Geoffrey's travels, or just the Tallboys properties?
But your research seems to be heading us in the right direction. Oh, I had another worrisome thought, that maybe the former owner of my copy simply tore the map out.
If, after rewriting emails to the Bury St. Edmunds Library this week, I still don't receive an answer, do you think they would more likely answer an email from you at your library address? Can you think of a reason why they wouldn't answer a reference question from the states? They seem to be under renovation, but they do have their open hours listed.
Thanks so much for all your work. I'm sorry you haven't been getting all the posts.
Werner's and Mary's comments about the lost posts worry me that POOF! - somehow we will all just lose each other.
P.S. to WernerI looked at every 848 pages in that enormous paperback, just so you won't worry that I just skimmed through it. I even used a wetted cloth to make sure I was separating every page. I had already looked through it several times, and knew the family tree was in there, but I was still excited about your find!
I too have the pb Coronet Suffolk Trilogy, published 1986 ISBN 0340-38935-4. Mine has no genealogical table, OR map.. Sigh......
MaryIs there a new thread for How Far To B? I have been posting on this one, which was actually started some time ago but kind of reactivated recently
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
What a worry if we were to lose stuff, especially the Layer Wood details. I think I will start a cut and paste job and put them into a personlly-kept document , just in case.
Susan, I will put Anne Boleyn in the post today. Well the book anyway
I didn't realize that we could save all our posts! I tried it, and the whole thing, well 1through 50, etc. was done in two seconds! What a wonderful world is electronics, even if I don't understand any of it! I wish our NL could have had the help of a computer.
Re Layer Geography - I don't know if the following is going to be helpful or just more more clutter, but I'll post it anyway and it can be kept or discarded or whatever!In Gads Hall, it says the house is in Stonham St Pauls ( I don't think I ever heard of that location in any other book ) Close by is Park Farm, at Stonham St Peters ( ditto re hearing of it before)
It must be close to Layer Wood, as George Thorley talks about riding his pony through it as young boy "...as a boy I was sure there were wolves in Layer Wood. And my fear seemed to communicate itself to my pony. Winter aftrnoons he'd cut through Layer like a racehorse" ( p19)
He talks later about riding down to school at Baildon Grammar, and scurrying home to muck out etc and then back again, and this is when he cuts through Layer.
Gads is also near the Norfolk border. Foxton, Tim Bridges' place is described as being 20 miles away from Gad's, just over the Norfolk border.
Baildon is also close ( a pregnant girl could walk there ) but it does not say in which direction
I think Muchanger is all three, a parish a house and village . In Gads , it says a maid was related to half the people in Stonham St Pauls or the next village Stonham St Peters, and had "....a cousin or niece from as far away as Nettleton, or Intake,or Muchanger" (p263) Later it talks of the Old Rectory at Muchanger (p493)
I know Statton Strawless in mentioned somewhere in Gads , but I just can't find it
I wrote to the Moyses Hall Museum site and got the followingThank you for enquiring about Norah Lofts. We did have quite a bit of contact with her son during 2003 and 2004 but have not seen him recently. I will forward your details to his last known address to see if he is able to contact you - he was always very keen to promote his mother and her works.
I hope he manages to contact you.
Gill
Gill Hawkins
Heritage Officer
Heritage Service
St Edmundsbury Borough Council
Moyse's Hall Museum
01284 706183
Direct Line: 01284 757161
www.moyseshall.org
So fingers crossed everyone
Oops! Sylvia, the ISBN in your copy of the Coronet edition IS the one I was trying to copy in my post. (I typed the 8 twice --sorry!). The term "omnibus edition" wasn't in the catalog entry; it was just a descriptive book-trade term for a volume that has more than one complete work in it (in this case, three whole novels).Since the catalogers wouldn't have mentioned a map in this book without a reason, I'm suspecting that you and Barbara have mutilated copies with pages missing. Rather than try to borrow the whole book by ILL to check this out (since only 13 libraries in the OCLC system have it!), I'm going to send out an ILL request, later today, for a photocopy of the map from the book. We'll see what result that will produce!
Barbara, the link you posted in message #73 goes to the only general How Far to Bethlehem? thread I know about. There are a couple of more specialized threads in the same folder, but neither of them are new, either.
As it turned out, all of the lending libraries that have this edition of The Sufflok Trilogy are outside the U.S. (mostly in Great Britain). Normally we don't place ILL requests outside the U.S.However, one library that has it is the British Library, England's equivalent of the Library of Congress. A short while ago, I e-mailed them to ask for a photocopy of the map, and they've just told me that I can expect a reply within 48 hours.
Oh that is just WONDERFUL, Werner! This is going to be an unbearable wait.
Amazing . Can't wait ! Great stuff Werner.
Wow, that is great news! Well done Werner! We must be patient now!
Well, we can't get too excited yet --they may say "no," and it may not even prove to be the map we want. (And in any case, it'll take a while for a paper copy to travel across the Atlantic.) But I'll let you all know any breaking news as soon as I have it! :-)
I'm trying not to get too excited, but it is hard. I guess I'm in a mental holiday state, not agonizing over the map for a few days. I'm thinking that once we find the original Layer Wood map, we will be satisfied, but some of us might still want to make our own from her original and try to pinpoint all the extra locations we've found. Right now, I'm writing all of your descriptions under each location on their own pages in a notebook. Werner, even if they send you a different map, it may at least give one or two locations, and that will give us an accurate starting point!
Barbara, if you hear from Clive Lofts, maybe you can persuade him to join this forum!
I still think that, depending on how early in her career NL made the map, ours might be better, in the sense of being more detailed and/or having more actual places on it. Yes indeed if I hear from Clive Lofts I certainly will, or at the very least point him in our direction
I am reading through "Jassy" and have found a few facts which might help.The Hattons lived at Minsham st. Mary, and their cottage faced South and from his room Barney could see across the tongue of Layer Wood which licked down to the Marshes, and he could see the roof of Mortiboys.
It quotes that "Barney Hatton (senior - who lost Mortiboys to Nick Helmer) parted with Mortiboys, with Layer Wood and the greater part of Minsham All Saints"
It did not know that Layer Wood was owned by Barney Hatton at that time in Jassy.
(It took just under half an hour to ride to Mortiboys from Minsham st. Mary)
The Grove is mentioned (I have not come across this before!) and that is the top end of Layer Wood.
Well, I got an auto-reply from the British Library, which I just read. My inquiry has now been forwarded to the Humanities Reference section. They'll aim to reply to me within five working days. So, we're inching a little closer to the goal post! :-)
So the next answer may come by March 1st. I hope they don't have another section for sending on!I haven't heard from anybody I contacted yet.
Susan, thanks for these facts from Jassy. It is interesting that it mentions Barney Hatton owning Layer Wood. A reference in another book states that Layer Wood was never known to have an owner! Did you get a sense of the years when he owned it?
I can't remember anyone else owning Layer Wood, in fact I had not remembered that |Barney Hatton owned it!It must have been around about mid 1800s. The Enclosure Act came about in 1845 when all common land was enclosed and people had no rights anymore to use it. This caused much poverty and also it was when winter wages were reduced, so there was much unrest and the firing of hayricks etc. So I think it fair to assume that Barney sold Layer around about this time. I cannot see any reference to a year (I know that often a king or queen is mentioned and you can date from that, but in this case It does not state any.
ANNOUNCEMENT! Great news on the map situation! I just received a letter from NL's son, Clive Lofts! He wrote from the house in Bury St. Edmund's which may explain why it is no longer a B&B. The address Susan found for a C. Lofts was his cousin, who, thankfully, forwarded it to Clive.I don't think this page is working normally right now. It wouldn't allow me to advance to the 3rd page of comments, and we are having a thunderstorm. I want to write out his entire letter for you to read, but will do so after the storm. I don't even know where this message will end up.
For now I will tell you that he did send a map, but not THE map. The one he sent, I believe, covers just one section of the entire Layer Wood area. It is the area involved in Afternoon of an Autocrat, which one of you, I believe is researching. I already have some of your notes from this book. Later we will figure out how I can get a copy of this map to any of you who want it. I am hoping it will give us a starting point for the other important sites. I intend to write back to Clive right away and further explain what we are doing. More later!
Oh what wonderful news! I am so glad that his cousin passed the letter on, that is good of him! So he is in his Mother's house then at Bury St. Edmunds. I wish we could meet and talk to him face to face and ask questions ! (I bet the poor man would be mind boggled with all of us yakking away!)When you write back to him Sylvia, please tell him how pleased we are to be able to find him, and all about this site etc. (I am sure you will do so anyhow, and thank you for your hard work in tracking him down!) And a map too! Any map is great!
Susan, I'm so glad you wrote back. That tells me that this message got through. When I wrote it, it looked like it had stopped in the middle, not the end of all the messages. Maybe I'm just out-of-my-mind excited!Yes, I will tell him all those things! Actually in the first letter, I told him about the forum and invited him to join us. I wonder if he never got into the computer and the internet. His cousin was also mystified how I got his address. I'll tell him from you in Scotland, Susan! That will really mystify him - ha-ha! I think any of you could also write to him if you like. I'm wondering if he really lives at the house, or if it is more of a central office. With her books in repub. there is probably still a lot of business to handle.
It's still storming, so I want to get off here for now. More later!
All kinds of funny things can happen with computers Sylvia! But at least as you say, you know your message got through! It would be great if he were to join our forum, but the poor man would be inudated with questions from all of us and would get no peace! :-). Yes, I wonder if he lives there too, as it still says that it is a B & B. I should think he is so pleased that people are still very interested in his Mum's writings. I have been check in at Amazon over the years to see if they were being republished and only found them last year! I always felt I wanted to advertise everywhere and tell people just what they were missing if they did not know NL and her wonderful books!
I hope the storm calms down soon for you Sylvia.
Here is the letter from Clive Lofts, dated March 8. "My cousin, Charles Lofts, has forwarded your letter to me and I was very pleased to hear from you. He was intrigued to know how you discovered his address. (Para) I am glad you still enjoy my Mother's books and it's good to know that she has such a loyal readership. Some of her books are now being republished both here and in America. It took time and effort but it has been worthwhile. (Para) I have been through my book collection looking for the map you mentioned and the only one I can find is on the front cover of the English edition of "Afternoon of an Autocrat" which was published in 1956; the American edition has a different cover. I enclose a copy of this cover for you. (Para) I do hope this is some help. Many thanks again for writing. With very best wishes, Yours sincerely, Clive Lofts."
I wanted to keep the letter above complete without my own comments. The map is beautiful (B&W) and much more elaborate than the one I remember. Since it copied so straight (no lines as with a folded open book, it is obviously from the paper cover. It shows a countryside with roads, houses, trees, a river, two bridges, and several farms and fields, all named. I started reading the book from the beginning, and every location in Clevely that was mentioned for 10+ pages is shown on this map (ex. Clevely Manor, Bridge Farm, Wood Farm, Dower House, Rectory, Church, Inn, Forge, Cobbler, etc.) Layer Wood is not really seen but its edge begins on the far right with arrows pointing to Nettleton and Muchanger. It was a totally different experience to have this map in front of me as I read along and could see exactly where the characters were. Unfortunately, this whole village is situated somewhere along that six fingered map of Layer Wood, and it gives no indication that I can yet envision of where precisely it is! I have already begun to compose another letter to Mr. Lofts, first with our extreme gratitude, then with our understanding if he would rather not be involved in further questions or projects of the forum (though I really do think he will help us if he can) and with further explanation of this map project as well as complete information on joining this forum, even if he wants to just read what has been written, and not write anything himself.
I have a new impression or hope, just by seeing this map, that possibly the English publisher put these village covers on several of her "house" books. I still believe that there is one out there of Layer Wood with the village locations indicated on it as well as the way to Baildon. Werner, does the world pub. book indicate which titles in our list are English publications and do they indicate any illustrations? I know I don't know what I'm asking of you, and if you don't have the time, or would rather wait for something from the British Library, or more from Mr. Lofts, that is fine. I am hoping that he can give our questions to whoever else can answer them. I got the feeling that he wasn't really aware of any maps until asked.
I would like to send a copy of this map of Clevely from "Afternoon of an Autocrat" (aka "The Devil in Clevely" and "The Deadly Gift")to anyone who wants it (your location doesn't matter) but the only way I know to do that is for you to either post your name and address on here, or write to me with the information and I will send it to you. My address is: Sylvia Badis, P.O. Box 48, Pleasant Plain, Ohio 45162 (USA if applicable)
I don't know the name of the artistic style of this map, but there is a stone wall across the bottom front with four cherubs sitting on it.
Hi Sylvia! Oh how wonderful that you have heard from NLs dear son, and have put his letter on here for us to read! He sounds like a nice man, and determined to make sure that his mother's writings are not forgotten! It is great that she is being republished!I do hope that he does not mind us being in touch again, but of course we will understand if he would rather not. He must be a busy man, and for him to take the time to send the map to you shows he cares about his mother's writings, and I am sure he is most happy to learn that there are people like us about (I am sure that there must be other people who maybe have found a forum somewhere like us.
The map sounds great and I would indeed like as copy of it, and I will be sending you my name and address, or would email be best? Would that be more helpful to you Sylvia if you could scan it to us? Do say which is best for you.
That is most strange that this novel has THREE titles! I know some of them have two, but I have never known one to have three! (My copy is "The Devil in Clevely"!
Thanks Sylvia, and hope the storms have passed!
Hi Susan! Yes, those storms moved out and then Rychard and I went out to a local market called Jungle Jim's that sells food from all over the world. There are indoor shops and also long aisles of imported foods including English. We got a pkg. of crumpets, but not in the shop, and they turned out to be from Canada, but that's fun, too. It feels like a mini-vacation to go there.I don't have a scanner, but I just talked to the woman who replaced me, and she has one at home. She said she could scan the map and email it to me. I can't say for sure when I'll be able to get the map copied and to her. Some people don't like to put their emails out on "public" sites like this. I will leave it up to you whether you want to put your address on here, or mail your address to me. Either way will be just as easy for me.
I know of three NL books with three titles. Those are: "Bride of Moat House" (Peter Curtis - AKA "Dead March in Three Keys" and "No Question of Murder"), "Afternoon of an Autocrat" (AKA "The Deadly Gift" and "The Devil in Clevely"), and "The Little Wax Doll" (Peter Curtis - AKA "The Devil's Own" and "The Witches"). "The Witches" was supposedly filmed, as well as the book "You're Best Alone" under the title "Guilt is My Shadow" and then we knew that Jassy was made into a movie. Lots of good stuff to search out!
Sylvia, that's wonderful news about the smaller map, even if it isn't the complete one! Congratulations, and thanks for all the effort you're putting in on this.World Catalog's electronic catalog records will indicate whether or not a particular book has any "illustrations," (they don't distinguish, in that regard, between maps and pictures, unfortunately) on the inside. But they don't usually tell anything about what's on the covers (such as maps). The newer ones will often have thumbnails of the front cover art; but the records for books published in the time frame we're concerned with here don't have anything like that --that technology just didn't exist when they were input. But they should list the place of publication, which would tell whether the edition was as American or English one (or published simultaneously in both countries).
Earlier today, I sent a follow-up reminder to the folks at the British Library. No response to that so far, but it's probably too soon to expect one.
Thanks for your hard work, too, Werner. As far as I'm aware, NL didn't seem to include any illustrations inside the texts (except for the two children's books, Rupert Hatton's Tale and Maude Reed's Tale) so if any of those House titles pub. in GB list an illus. I'll bet those will be maps. Trouble is, it will still be very hard to find those paper covers on the used books we buy. But I have read descriptions on Amazon and Alibris that include "jacket".
I just made a discovery on this map that might be helpful. Maybe this map was not on a jacket cover, but on the cover of a paperback after all. Down the middle, in today's light, I think I can see two shadow lines that may indicate the spine of a book (though they could also still indicate a jacket cover spread open). At the bottom are the words "Michael Joseph" which I thought might be the artist, but when I looked up the name, Michael Joseph was listed as a section of Penguin Paperback Book Publishing. When I went to their site and searched, however, they didn't come up with any listings for NL, or even this title from the map. Werner, when you look at the publishers, will you keep an eye out for Penguin or Michael Joseph? Thanks!
What bliss! Great work Sylvia. Fancy them wondering about how we got to know the address etc, I think you must be right perhaps about not being very much into computers .At all!I didn't realise the actual family was back in Northgate House again, how lovely.I did know it was not a B & B anymore - in fact I posted that some time ago .Bury St Edmunds may even have said that it was a family home again, but I assumed the were using the word family generically as it were .
So there is a map- at least one!
I hope my details from Devil in Clevely matched up. Should I go over them again? I don;t think I missed anything, but if you see something on the map that I didn't metion , let me know and I will scour it !
I of course would LOVE a copy if you would be so kind - it bothers me a bit about your spending postage all ove the world though. I was thinking maybe I can send stamped envelope but that is a bit hard with different currencies and all.
My address is
Barbara Hoyland
20, Dunn St
Semaphore
Adelaide, SA 5019
Australia
And thank you again, for everything
