Which Tudor do you like / dislike and why ?

[Kate.]

I thought this would be a fun place to discuss and share our opinions on our favourites and not so favourite Tudor and or Tudor courtier.

[Jayme(theghostreader)]

Nophoto-u-25x33 i will start, I have the up most respect for Katherine of Aragon. Anne Boelyn is mixed. There are things I like and dislike about her. She was educated and intelligent, ambitious but i think her ambition got the better of her. Her death was not her fault. I feel she truly did love Henry VIII. She is certainly the most infamous wife. Jane Seymour, I liked and she was the only one to give Henry what he wanted, a male heir. Unfortunately she died. I like Mary Boelyn and I think she got the best end of the deal by deciding for herself who she married. She already was previously married but that marriage was annulled so she can be the king;s mistress. After she was "unwanted" there was no way her first husband would take her back. I haven't read enough yet to form opinions on Anne Cleves and Katherine Howard. Other than they were kind to Mary, Elizabeth and Edward. Katherine Parr though was kind, I don't agree with her involvement in allowing Thomas Seymour to form such a close relationship with Princess Elizabeth in her teen years. I hope what I am reading in this book is accurate

[Kate.]

Which book are you reading Jayme ?

Thanks for posting it here :)

[Jayme(theghostreader)]

I am reading Behind the Mask: The Life of Queen Elizabeth I by Jane Resh Thomas. It's a non fcition.

[Kelly A.]

For some reason, Katherine Howard does not strike my fancy. In her defense, I don't know that much about her, and I think I'm getting the negative feelings from The Tudors, where she was portrayed as a hussy. lol.

[Colleen, Mod #3]

KoA- love her, respect her, pity her, she is one of my favorites. She was everything a Queen should be and truly Isabella and Ferdinand's daughter in all respects except her unfortunate inability to have more than one surviving child.

AB- dislike very strongly, she signed her own death warrant by reaching too high and then not playing it smart when she did get to the status of Queen. I hate that she was so nasty to KoA and Mary I and she was a damn fool if she thought Henry wouldn't push her off the throne as she pushed KoA off her throne. She may have been smart, witty, ambitious, and talented but in the end this all became her downfall as well. Her relationship with Thomas Wyatt? I tend to believe he fawned over her but they didn't necessarily have a sexual relationship. Henry Percy? I believe, and there is a lot of evidence to support this, that they could have very possibly been betrothed and had a sexual relationship. She became such a pain and got such a big head while on the throne that her own family called her "the great whore". She was so determined, and I believe at the end desperate, given Henry's failing health and their mutual desire for a son I have no problem believing she would have had a sexual relationship with one or more men including her own brother in order to have another pregnancy and attempt to secure her faltering status with a son to pass off as Henry's own.

*pant, gasp, stretch fingers* you asked for it Kate. ;) LOL

I can comment on the other wives and Henry later.

[Kate.]

I love you passion on this Colleen.

You make some very strong points. I tend to believe the whole Henry Percy betrothal also. I also wouldnt have put it past her to have it off with others to get the son , not sure about the brother thing. Im on the fence with that for the moment. She certainly was her own undoing. Didnt her father betray her in the end , they were a greedy ambitious lot.

I love to hate her

[Colleen, Mod #3]

Thank you Kate. :)

Thomas Boleyn (her father) and the Duke of Norfolk (her uncle- mother's brother) had a heavy hand in pushing her on the throne and in pushing her towards the scaffold. Backstabbers and fair weather friends those two.

Me too, she irritates me to no end; although Natalie Dormer did humanize her a bit in my eyes.

[Jayme(theghostreader)]

I forgot about the Henry Percy betrothal and I can see Kate's point about obsessed with having a male heir. So what is the real truth?

[Kate.]

For sure Jayme , If she had a son , history would be different now. It was her meal ticket. I think Henry saw what he did for her (executing friends , turning the country and church and other monarchs against him) and thought she aint worth it and cant give me the son so off to the scafold for you.

The Tudors were known for spreading tales about people , look at what they did to Richard III.
Then again , they say there is some element of truth behind a rumour. Oh its all so scandalous. Thats why i love it.

[Colleen, Mod #3]

What's the real truth about what Jayme?

AB would have certainly survived had she held her tongue on certain things. The execution of Thomas More ate Henry alive afterwords, he deeply regretted it and put all the blame on her. If she had turned a blind eye to his mistresses, if she had not made loud mean comments about him, had she given him a living son... she may have survived longer. Certainly giving him a living, healthy son wouls have turned his favor back to her.

[Colleen, Mod #3]

I know you will ask what I mean by "loud mean comments" so:

Supposedly AB once complained she complained that Henry possessed neither skill nor virility to please a woman.

"Henry was neither ribald nor bawdy nor particularly lusty"

[Kate.]

That was the biatch coming out in her.

Funny how he got more bastard children than legitimate. Maybe this was his punishment.

[Nona]

honestly a person cannot blame Henry, Anne did promise him a son once things got hot and heavy. In Gregory's The Boleyn Inheritence I believe, Anne says to Henry that she would give him a healthy son once they we're married but until then she couldn't be as a wife to him, or something along those lines and thats when her 'experience' at the french court was brought up.

[Aly]

Nona, that was the Other Boleyn Girl. And it's not a very accurate novel. O I could go on about PG and her "history" but I'll save you all the rant!! AB did dangle the "male heir carrot" in front of Henry. It was mostly because she was young and nubile and (supposedly) fertile whereas KoA was old, was going through menopause, and had lost all but one child and that was a girl.
Kate, its debatable that he got more bastard children then legitimate. I only know of a possible three bastards: Henry Fitzroy (whom he recognized), and Catherine and Henry Carey (whom he didn't, so we can't say for sure if they were his). His legitimate children were of course, Mary, Elizabeth, and Edward. And by allowing the first two back into the line of succession once again, he basically was recognizing them as his own without having to say it right out.

After reading The Lady in the Tower by Alison Weir, I feel bad for AB. She was destroyed quickly and extremely unfairly. Cromwell needed to destroy her before she destroyed him. But I still love to hate her. She was such a cruel woman!! It's unbelievable how she treated Mary and how she danced upon hearing about the deaths of both Cardinal Wolsey and KoA. Ug!! My favorite Tudor is honestly Henry VIII. He was such a complex man, he had so many layers. Of course there was the cruelty and bad smells and blah blah blah, but there was so much more to him than that. it makes me mad when novelists reduce Henry to the mere basics (cruelty, smell, fat etc.). I'm getting sick of reading about this Henry.
My favorite wife is Katherine Howard. She just fascinates me. What was she thinking??? Why did she do it?? I love reading about her.

[Nona]

yes I know a person has to take PG with a grain of salt and sorry I miss quoted, it has been over three years and a few hundered books since I've read any of her work. Alot of people like PG's work for the story, it's what got me back into historical fiction. I'm not a Tudor expert it's just what I think, I believe she would say/do something along those lines anything to secure her position, why else hold out on Henry for that long?

The point I was trying to make was the fact that she put her self out there like a 'mare' and when he denied his country and the Pope and his people she coulnd't do what was expected of her, I don't blame him in the least. I like her story, find it interesting but if a king does what he did you better be prepared should you fail, she did. The ultimate purpose of a wife/Queen was to produce heirs.

[MAP]

Nona: You do realize that it is actually the man's part of the reproductive process that determines whether the baby is a boy or a girl, right? Though they didn't realize it at the time, it's neither Katherine of Aragon's nor Anne Boleyn's fault that they had girls. It's Henry's. (I mean, it's not his purposeful fault, but it was his sperm.)

I also disagree with you that she put herself out like a "mare." She really didn't. Henry wanted to get rid of KoA because she couldn't produce any more sons, but he wanted to marry Anne because he was wild about her. (A tempestuous passion that went as violently as it came, and that Anne had less control over than she thought.)

[Nona]

I'm not trying to argue I'm simply stating that she offered something to Henry as a lure/reward if he married her and made her queen that she could not provide or make certain of.

I know the man determines the sex of the child but in the 1500's they did not, everything was put onto the womans shoulder if it did not turn out as the man wanted.

[Jayme(theghostreader)]

So it's all Henry's fault! yay! :)

[Aly]

Nona wrote: "yes I know a person has to take PG with a grain of salt and sorry I miss quoted, it has been over three years and a few hundered books since I've read any of her work. Alot of people like PG's work..."

It's ok, I won't hold it against you for misquoting PG. Like I said, I'll save my rant for the PG thread LOL

[Cel]

mAP - actually I think some of the scientific investigations suggest that it is a combination of the male sperm, and the conditions they have to swim through that can help or hinder sperm of particular gender. Watched a fascinating documentary which showed how few actually make it to the egg.
So perhaps both are to blame. Some people have tried to use died to help.
Or was Henry too fit - sportsmen tend to have girls and not boys.

[Jayme(theghostreader)]

really? interesting, I wonder why.

[[deleted user]]

Maybe this was all just a kind of punishment from God that Henry, whom so wanted a male heir, ended up with two girls firstly, then when he found Jane, who they call the most beloved Queen, because he loved her so much, she gives him that son, but then God rips her away from him... Punishment is cruel, but hey, so was he... And then to crown it all so to speak, his daughter Elizabeth, goes on to be one of the greatest rulers of the time... freaky, when you think her father had wished her to be a boy...

[Cel]

Except that he did have boys with Anne, it is just that one died very young, and the others were stillborn. So although he could sire boys, he didn't sire living boys.
Possibly some of the miscarriages also were male.

[[deleted user]]

Still, wouldnt that just rattle you to? As punishment? Knowing you were able to sire them, but they didnt live... then the one that did, well his mother whom you loved ended up dying

[Jayme(theghostreader)]

Cel, don't you mean he sired boys with Katherine. She was the one that had alot of miscarriages. Not that Anne didn't. I think though you mean katherine.

[Susanna - Censored by GoodReads, Mod #4]

Yeah, Katherine's the one with the boy that died young (a month or two, I think).

[Aly]

I would argue that he only love Jane because she gave him a son. With Katherine and Anne, he had pined after each for years (he was supposedly in love with Katherine when she married his brother). He had to fight for the other two, first with his father with Katherine and then with Anne herself for herself. Jane, with the exception of sleeping with him, meekly went to him. She wasn't fiery, she didn't have any of the qualities that Anne or even Katherine had (except the piousness). So I would say that he only loved her because she gave him a son. Jane is one of my least favorite people in the Tudor Era. She comes off as all meek and pious and demur and pure, but she was just as ambitious and power hungry as Anne before her. She just played the game a little different.

[Jayme(theghostreader)]

I thought she showed kindness to Mary Tudor and Elizabeth.

[CF]

I love Elizabeth I and also Lady Jane Grey, I also have a particular fascination with Anne Boleyn. I think she was a bit ahead of her time, and perhaps she was foolish. But she never, ever deserved to be beheaded.


Mary (I) scares the shit out of me, as most people know. My god she is frightening. She was wronged as a child and I can just imagine her mind ticking over with 'One day, i'll show them ALL'.

[CF]

Okay I have a new 'scares the daylights out of me' picture, Margaret Tudor, H8's sister, my god, I can't look at this picture too long.

http://www.marileecody.com/margtudor-...

*screams* Oh my god i'm having Tudor-based long-faced nightmares tonight.

[Kate.]

I have to say my favourite wives are KoA and AB for the reason Aly pointed out , they were fiery and determined to get what they set their minds on.
I dont think KoA was a pure as is claimed and i dont think AB was a bad as she is portrayed.

Im also interested in Mary I & Elizabeth I and H8 sisters Margaret & Mary.They had fascinating lives too and went onto have famous children and grandchildren etc .

I would like to do some further reading on Katherine Howard. What are some good books suggestions on her ????

[Kate.]

Claire wrote: "Okay I have a new 'scares the daylights out of me' picture, Margaret Tudor, H8's sister, my god, I can't look at this picture too long.

http://www.marileecody.com/margtudor-...

*screams* Oh ..."

AHAHAHAH....She looks like Scarlett Johansson

[Colleen, Mod #3]

Kate, KH is one of my favorite wives; I have every book on her I can get my hands on. If you want a good list right this second, go to our polls in this group. Our last group read was on KH so books on her are listed there. Hope that helps :)

[ToniS]

Colleen, which one would you suggest first? Do you have a fave about KH?

[Susanna - Censored by GoodReads, Mod #4]

That one is weird, Claire, but Mary Tudor is still the creepiest!

[CF]

^ Yes definitely, she is the creepier person, but that is the creepiest portrait I have ever seen. Even Mary herself doesn't have a crazy distorted picture like that. YET I keep wanting to look at it!! Argh!

[Kate.]

Thanks Colleen , i will have a snoop at the shelves and add to my TBR.

I just had another look at that pic Claire , she is all out of proportion !!!!

[Susanna - Censored by GoodReads, Mod #4]

Yes, but CreepyMary's eyes follow you!

[Jayme(theghostreader)]

Mary Tudor you mean? She is creepy.

[CF]

Yes they follow you! Scowling.. >.>

[Colleen, Mod #3]

Toni wrote: "Colleen, which one would you suggest first? Do you have a fave about KH?"

Yes Toni, thanks for asking. Two KH books that are at the top of my personal list are
A Tudor Tragedy: The Life and Times of Catherine Howard by Lacey Baldwin Smith and The Fifth Queen by Ford Madox Ford. The first is supposed to be one of the better, if not the best to date, biography on KH, the second is a huge tome but well worth the read.

[Marylou]

To those who say Mary was creepy. I do think that is a harsh criticism. Perhaps sad Mary would be better. If you think about the terrible father she had and the awful life she led it would be odd if she wasn't very sad. She was separated from her mother whom she loved very much. She was not allowed to marry when she was young and had all the hormones raging in her body. Her father treated her badly. At one place she was sent to be with the baby Elizabeth instead of having her own house. Henry was really an evil father.

[CF]

^ I would not have sympathy for her if she had been treated even worse. That may sound even harsher, but she burned people at the stake for NOTHING. For literally not being the same religion as herself, after HVIII's and EVI's reigns where Catholics were burned. The people must have had to change religions over and over again. Which many people did NOT. (Lady Jane Grey is an example, she may have lived had she renounced her protestantism)

All this horrific killing, torture and evil just for 2 religions that believe in the same god.

Mary got her nickname for a reason. Because she was bloody and unyielding. She will always be creepy to me.

[Marylou]

Claire wrote: "^ I would not have sympathy for her if she had been treated even worse. That may sound even harsher, but she burned people at the stake for NOTHING. For literally not being the same religion as he..."
Mary Lou I still feel sorry for Mary. I am not certain that she did anything different that Henry viii, Cromwell, Thomas More (who beat a child servant, almost to death , naked, in front of the household and servants because the child said he didn't think wine turned into blood (probably didn't know what that meant.) It was a cruel time, shockingly cruel. There is no doubt that Mary becamse deranged, but what a terrible background she had to suffer through. I think we all have feeling for different people in the Tudor era. Anyway, who can prove what happened 500 years ago.

[Kate.]

I cant say im a fan of Thomas More.He was as steadfast in his beliefs and just as cruel as all the others.

[CF]

Thomas More (who beat a child servant, almost to death , naked, in front of the household and servants because the child said he didn't think wine turned into blood (probably didn't know what that meant.)

I'm sure the child servant did indeed know exactly what it meant. Children had the bible bashed into them at a very young age, plus he would have been attending the mass since birth. It's a very real possibility that he was raised with Protestant or Lutheran parents.

[Jayme(theghostreader)]

I can sympathize with Mary as a young girl. It is what she did as a queen that I don't like.

[Marylou]

Claire wrote: "Thomas More (who beat a child servant, almost to death , naked, in front of the household and servants because the child said he didn't think wine turned into blood (probably didn't know what that ..."
\That is interesting to think that a child, poor, no education, without parents and living on the streets until he was allowed to do child labor for the Mores would be well-educated and know all about religion, wine, water, bread and flesh. I don't believe in beating children anyway. I think after I read several books about Thomas More I don't like him anymore because he was cruel.

[Aly]

Thomas More was incredibly cruel. Beating children is never right. But the kid probably did know what he was saying. All of Henry's subjects were required to go to mass.