Tudor History Lovers discussion
Which Tudor do you like / dislike and why ?
Connie wrote: "Lushbug wrote: "There are so many interesting people in Tudor times. i have on my shelf to read biographies on Arabella and Bess of Hardwock two other interesting tudor woman whpo lived thru much. ..."I am definitely putting this book on my TBR Connie, as I am fascinated by Bess also.
Edit - Impossible book to find!! My library doesn't have it, and Amazon only has 3 used copies, of which I just bought one. Yes--I am weak!!
Interesting comments Suzanne and Anariel. It is really interesting to see the difference in perspectives of the English and Spanish cultures regarding Henry and KoA. Whatever Henry's reasonings for divorcing Katherine and marrying Anne, it is not hard to believe that the Spanish thought the worst of him as his personality would most likely have clashed with others in power, including Charles V. If I am not mistaken, Charles was his superior in the eyes of the Catholic Church? I'm sure Henry didn't like that, but I'm not sure, given his love of and duty to his church when he was growing up, that would be enough to make him break from the church. You both have given me something else to ponder and think about, and more research to do!
OK - the above said - I have been a member of this group for a long time, and I am beginning to be a little disheartened by some of the comments being made in people's posts. PLEASE DON'T RUIN THIS GROUP WITH PETTY COMMENTS AND POT SHOTS. I realize that there are many different views to the subjects being discussed. We all come from different perspectives and have our passions regarding this fascinating subject, and I am the first to admit that it is hard to keep my own personal biases out of my discussions, but I would hope that I have never belittled any of my fellow group members by stating my opinions. If I have, I would like to apologize now.
Come on guys!
Anariel, I assumed that this was a POV you'd heard somewhere, and was curious about whether it was in a book I hadn't read, or from educators at some point along the line. My curiosity was aroused because it flies in the face of what I've read, and so I was hoping to learn more about what that POV was based on -- i.e. the historical arguments in support of it. If I were a student, I'd be particularly interested in knowing the basis for their conclusions if their field of expertise was Spanish history rather than English history... I research and write for a living now, and my first question of anyone is always "how do you know (whatever you are telling me) to be true?" I'm not sure where the "we spanish people can do nothing over the english people's Renaissance picture of us" comment comes in. I don't think I was making an argument of the kind. Indeed, I'm not English. Perhaps you'd want to post this in a different part of the group, where some of the television shows that you disagree with are discussed, and contribute your views/perspective on Felipe II, Carlos V and Catherine?
Really, I responded to your post out of curiosity and interest and in hopes of having a dialogue, not having my head bitten off. No, I wasn't trying to laugh at you (and am surprised you'd automatically assume that, given that we haven't interacted on this or any other Goodreads forum.) I was pointing out that just as a lot of HF about Spain tends to be written in Spanish (since it's assumed the primary audience will be readers who have a vested interest in the subject because of their nationality. There was no reason to flash up and interpret that as some kind of personal and hostile comment.
To clear up any residual misunderstanding: I asked about the basis for your comments and explained my understanding of the matter so that you'd know why I was curious, and commented in my turn on another point you had made in your post that I found interesting.
Lyn, I have a copy of the Westcott book that I'd be happy to send out via the Goodreads version of interlibrary loan! Just shoot me a message and let me know if you want to read it & send it back when done. I do have a Doris Leslie book about Arbella Stuart somewhere, but it may be in the basement...
Suzanne wrote: "Lyn, I have a copy of the Westcott book that I'd be happy to send out via the Goodreads version of interlibrary loan! Just shoot me a message and let me know if you want to read it & send it back w..."Thanks, I will send my address.
Lyn M wrote: "OK - the above said - I have been a member of this group for a long time, and I am beginning to be a little disheartened by some of the comments being made in people's posts. PLEASE DON'T RUIN THI..."here here lynn. ive only just joined and am surprised at how quickly people take offense on this site...then again posts are a bit like txts i often offend my fella when i dont mean to simply but things not coming out as i meant them too.lol
Lyn M wrote: "Lushbug - What Bess of Hardwick book are you going to read. I started Bess of Hardwick: First Lady of Chatsworth, 1527-1608 by Mary S. Lovell but never got to finis..."hey lynn. reading the bess of hardwick:first lady of chatwortth by Mary Lovell-its very interesting so far. amazing that a womaen from a a quite relatively lowly birth raised herself so high and lived to such an old age in such turbalent times. I live only an hour away from hardwick hall, haddon hall and chatsworth living in derby so i have always been fascinated by the tudors and the grand places they lived.I find myself really interested in the little questions after visiting such places-how did they keep warm!! how did they smell and really look (minus all those teetch) etc!
Lushbug - you sound like me. I end up asking myself all sorts of weird questions while I am reading the books. It is just so fascinating that their life was so different. I'm glad you are liking the Bess book. As I said in an earlier post, I started that one, but had to return it before I got to finish it. I need to re-request it so I can finish it. BTW - welcome to the group. Glad to have you aboard.
Lushbug, I envy you being so close to so many great buildings of this era...!! I keep thinking that on my next trip to England I should head up to Derbyshire and do some walks in that neck of the woods. What I've found really intriguing is researching my family history, and being able to put a name to some of the ancestors alive at the time of Henry VIII or Queen Elizabeth. Since some of those ancestors were Boston Yankees, who kept great records (literacy next to godliness??) in those cases it's not actually that difficult. Of course, just one of my great-great grandparents was a Boston Yankee, so the rest, pre 1750, is still largely a mystery!
I believe that Starkey's Six Wives takes a good look at Catherine of Aragon through the eyes of the Spanish sources.
Lushbug, you are lucky!!! I went to England last summer and I LOVED it!!!!! I too have often wondered how they smell and attracted the opposite sex...!
Lyn M wrote: "OK - the above said - I have been a member of this group for a long time, and I am beginning to be a little disheartened by some of the comments being made in people's posts. PLEASE DON'T RUIN THI..."Well said Lyn. Thats why ive backed off from posting !
As there isnt allot of hard evidence on all these events and people , in many cases we tend to form opinions from others opinions (ie the writers of the books and films) so lets try to be respectful and friendly to each others views.
Lyn M wrote: "OK - the above said - I have been a member of this group for a long time, and I am beginning to be a little disheartened by some of the comments being made in people's posts. PLEASE DON'T RUIN THI..."Here, here, Lyn! I love this topic, and this is the only place I have to discuss it, and am a little turned off lately by all the unhappiness in the posts. I'm not lucky enough to be in an academic setting and don't have 'real world' friends who are interested in the topic, so really love all the knowledge and sharing that goes on here, but it's disturbing to see how unhappy so many people are lately.
Come on, everyone, can't we all play nice? :)
Is it "here, here!" or "hear, hear!" ?
Not sure, I'll go for either.
Think it's the latter, LOL.
My opinion on Henry the VIII: I think he had a lot of complexes that can explain some of his actions. Not to provide excuses, but to understand. First, he was the second son and never meant to be king. So I think he had a strong desire to prove himself and so he overcompensated on the aggressivness.
Second, the Tudor claim to the throne was on shaky ground, there were rival claimaits to the throne and Henry was a very paranoid man. This fed his obsession for a male heir. I also believe he was in love with love. He loved the courtship and the chase, and after a while he did get disenchanted but I think if KoA or Anne gave him the son (or sons) he so wanted he would have stayed married to them and contented himself with many mistresses.
It is also interesting that he was so suggestible. Look how Cromwell was able to bring down Anne, and then Cromwell's enemies did the same to him. Henry was very passionate and emotional when he learned of the treachery of his friends, which suggests he truly belived the charges brought against them. But Anne or even Katherine Howard might have been able to win back his favor if they could have simply been allowed to speak to him. That's the only thing that saved Katherine Parr, she was able to get an audience with him before her arrest and defend herself.
I think he is way more complex than the stereotypical tyrant that he is made out to be. He is facinating.
Anne boleyn is equally facinating to me. She was feisty and ambitious, just like Henry, and look at what a combination they made in Elizabeth! I could probably go on about my opinions on AB forever, so Ill leave it out for now, especially since this thread is prone to cat fights :)
Danielle, definitely with you on the complexity front!! It was an interesting time to be a monarch, too, with so much shifting of the social sands, and such big upheavals in the religious arena. Although I suspect that he was suggestible when the suggestions he was getting happened to tie in with what he wanted to do, or where it could be shown to have some advantage to him. When he saw Anne of Cleves' portrait, he was in one of those suggestible frames of mind; when he saw the reality, he became pretty stubborn, pretty quickly!
Anne herself intrigues me. To survive Henry, IMO, means that she was either so placid as to be almost stupid, or that she was one of the era's best diplomats, having found a way to 'manage' him in both fair and foul weather. Intriguing...
Anne of Cleves got out of that marriage pretty easily and pretty lucky compared to his former wives.
Lyn M wrote: "Colleen - I go back and forth with Anne throughout this book, alternately feeling sorry for her, and feeling like she is to blame for a lot of what happened to her. I am reserving my final judgeme..."Lyn! Don't take Colleen's side on AB... you need to stay with me :) lol
Lyn M wrote: "OK - the above said - I have been a member of this group for a long time, and I am beginning to be a little disheartened by some of the comments being made in people's posts. PLEASE DON'T RUIN THI..."I agree... this is such a fantastic group and I've always loved chatting with everyone. We all come from very different backgrounds, opinions and levels of knowledge surrounding our Tudor fascination but it's a great place to be because most of us IRL don't have anyone that shares that fascination. Let's all keep it friendly and while we're bound to disagree, let's do so in a non-confrontational way :)
Anariel wrote: "I strongly disagree with your view and bashing on AB. You can't blame on her that she was not capable of giving Henry a son, that's a pretty unfair argument to hold against her :/ And by your comments, I'd say that you base your opinions on her mainly using arguments displayed in "The other Boleyn" opera (though I could be wrong). Which, in my opinion, is not historically accurate, to say the least. Hi Anariel and welcome to the group. I don't think we've met yet. I thought it was interesting to read your opinions on the portrayal of the Spanish in Tudor media/books and it has made me look at that portrayal differently… I'm always searching (as I think many of us are... that's the fun of this group!) for the 'real truth' of the time and I'd love to read more from a non-English point of view.
I think we're all in agreement that AB can't be blamed for her inabililty to give Henry a son and I don't believe that Colleen was insinuating differently. I too believe, however, that if AB had been able to provide the long sought-after male heir, her death warrant would have been missing the signature of the King. Henry loved power and breaking from Rome provided him with a lot of power that he wouldn't have otherwise had. But I personally have never gotten the impression from anything I've read that the break from Rome came before his desire for Anne and a son. To me it's always been portrayed that moreso than being an excuse for breaking with Rome, Anne Boleyn was the means by which he got there. I think Henry was a passionate man and one not used to being told no. He also wouldn't have been used to dealing with someone not giving him what he wanted when he wanted it. Whether it was AB's charm, skill or the challenge that she presented to him, I do think that Henry would have acted in anyway he had to to get what he wanted, whatever the reasoning.
Danielle wrote: "My opinion on Henry the VIII: I think he had a lot of complexes that can explain some of his actions. Not to provide excuses, but to understand. First, he was the second son and never meant to..."
Well said!!!!! There are times when I'm reading about Henry and can't help but feel sorry for him. And yet at the same time, I wanna smack him upside the head and ask "what were you thinking??" (Most notably, killing Margaret Pole. I understand the Plantagenet princess thing, but c'mon!! She was an old lady!!)
^ YES Aly!! Poor Countess of Salisbury!! I wonder what REALLY happened there..Was she hacked on the block or was she hacked on the run? So interesting..and sad!!!
It is interesting and sad!!! I read a couple stories of her execution (of course, no two are alike!) and every time it just made my stomach crawl. That poor woman!!
Aly wrote: "Lushbug, you are lucky!!! I went to England last summer and I LOVED it!!!!! I too have often wondered how they smell and attracted the opposite sex...!"ha ha yes wheever i read that someone was attractive eg katherine parr i always take it with a pinch of salt!!!Must of smelt something dreadfull to be so trussed up with layers and makeup in the heat with no easy access to showers.
living in derby is lovely. lived in london for a while but nothing beats deryshire for beautiful buildings and landscape. just wish i didnt have to work so could endulge my passions more!Then again u guys get the nice weather!
Suzanne wrote: "Lushbug, I envy you being so close to so many great buildings of this era...!! I keep thinking that on my next trip to England I should head up to Derbyshire and do some walks in that neck of the w..."ooh how exciting to have interesting family history to researh in- project i would love to do. yes if u ever come to england again and have already done london and bath then derby would be a great stop-lots of nice wlks, nice villages where u can gorge on cream cakes and lots of tudor history to explore.
Apparently the stories about poor Margaret Pole being chased around the block with the axe are apocryphal. She did have an inexperienced executioner (the state papers describe him as "a wretched and blundering youth"), who made a butchery of it.
Anne Boleyn got off a lot better in that respect.
I recall reading historians who have described her execution as a message to her sons, good Catholics all. If Henry was short of them, Margaret had several of them. There is a newish bio of her out that I want to get hold of...
Suzanne - I am just finishing the part in the Lady in the Tower where Anne gets beheaded. Wow! Let me know what the title of the Margaret Pole bio is. I might have to see if I can scare up a copy!
Aly - & Lushbug - That's why I always laugh so much when you read that one of the things that Henry did not like about Anne of Cleves was that she smelled. This coming from a man who bathed maybe twice a year! How much worse could she possibly have smelled? I guess smell in in the nose of the smeller?
Jennifer - I haven't totally given up on Anne, but this book does make me question some things.
Here I thought he didn't like her because Anne of Cleves was fat and looked like a horse. :)
Lyn M wrote: "Jennifer - I haven't totally given up on Anne, but this book does make me question some things."I'm looking forward to reading that one... I think my love for Anne has always been a mix of admiration and my love of hating her... she's fascinating to me all around for a mixture of reasons, both good and bad :)
Anariel wrote: "I strongly disagree with your view and bashing on AB. You can't blame on her that she was not capable of giving Henry a son, that's a pretty unfair argument to hold against her :/ And by your comments, I'd say that you base your opinons on her mainly using arguments displayed in "The other Boleyn" opera (though I could be wrong). Which, in my opinion, is not historically accurate, to say the least.Even so, AB was used as an excuse to break with Rome. It's not all this "I am going to divorce from KoA and then marry youthfull Anne for my "Iwanttohaveamaleheir" complex" No. Henry wanted, more than anything, to be the only sovereign figure in his kingdom, and the Pope represented a rival he had to put down. Anne was just the excuse he had to do so. It's not like Henry would be a man who acted under AB's supposed charm to make a decision like that.
As a Spanish person, I agree that Tudor movies/books are always anglophile, and thus, figures like KoA and the spanish ambassadors are not always seen as they truly were, so I can understand your opinion on KoA. But I believe your opinion on AB is strongly biased. Opinions are like assholes, and I respect yours, but your accusations on Anne are very unfair and lack historical reference, IMHO."
Anariel, first off please refrain from swearing. It is against the group rules and while I am not personally offended by cursing, others are.
Second I was NOT "blaming" AB for her inability to give Henry one or more living thriving sons, I'm not sure why you would take it that way.
Third, I have read TOBG and TBI but I have also dedicated years to researching and reading both fiction and non-fiction about the Tudors so it is unfair to me for you to assume I am getting all my information and forming my opinions from books such as TOBG and TBI. I was also not saying that the sole reason Henry broke from Rome and formed his own church solely on his infatuation with AB and his hearty obsession his having a male heir or two.
I have also read books on Isabelle and Ferdinand (KoA's parents in case anyone is unaware) and not just from the British perspective. When I get passionate about history, I much prefer to read about as many sides of the story as possible before forming my own opinions which have plenty of historic reference.
Lyn, don't listen to Jennifer come over to my side of the fence! ;)Everyone in this thread:
If you posted something stating your unhappiness with the lack of civility in this group I want to thank you for posting your comments and backing up Darbus, me, and the other moderators. Please don't leave the group, this is definitely not the norm. Thanks!
Lyn M. -- The title is (showing tremendous imagination and creative flair...) "Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury 1473-1541: Loyalty, Lineage and Leadership", by Hazel Pierce. The price has shot up from around $30 on publication to more than $60 from vendors right now, which is irritating. Might be cheaper in the UK. It's definitely a scholarly work, vs. a popular history a la Weir.Re Henry VIII and bathing -- I seem to recall that he was fastidious about personal cleanliness. Didn't this get discussed here in this forum? Obviously, when his leg became ulcerous in the mid-1530s, that was something that couldn't be contained and his personal smell would have been problematic. But I remember reading (wish I could remember where...) that Henry was very fussy about washing, after tennis games, etc. Still not up to contemporary standards (ours, I mean), but certainly not twice a year. I'll see if I can find the other discussion.
Thanks for posting the title of that book Suzanne, sounds like a book I would like to read too.Even if Henry was a fastidious bather, his personal smell was certainly really gross during the time he was complaining that AoC had "foul odors coming off of her". Like he could talk! LOL
Many things to say/answer. I just finished Weir's book on Anne Boleyn and thoroughly enjoyed it. Great work! Jennifer - I know, Anne holds the same sort of frustration for me. Good and bad, but none the less interesting.
Suzanne - Thanks for the title of the book. I am certainly going to put it on my watch list to see if I can scare up a copy, or borrow one. I love the title. No embellishment there, huh?
As for Henry's bathing, I was sort of exaggerating when I said twice a year since, as you say Suzanne, he was supposedly fastidious, BUT, even being fastidious for his times would not have been smell free, so it still cracks me up! And your right, we did discuss this at length in the Real Tudor History thread.
For those of you who mentioned that you disliked Jane Parker, Lady Rochford, I thought you would get a kick out of this quote describing her from The Lady in the Tower by Alison Weir:
Lacey Baldwin Smith's description of Lady Rochford as "a pathological meddler with the instincts of a procuress who achieves a vicarious pleasure from arranging assingnations" may not be far wide of the mark
Lushbug wrote: "Aly wrote: "Lushbug, you are lucky!!! I went to England last summer and I LOVED it!!!!! I too have often wondered how they smell and attracted the opposite sex...!"ha ha yes wheever i read th..."
Sorry you had trouble finding the Westcott book, but you'll be glad you ordered it, I think! This author also wrote an excellent book on Elizabeth Woodville, called "The White Rose".
Didn't realize you were in Derbyshire! How cool that you can visit Hardwick Hall and Chatsworth. My grandmother was from Derby and I visited when I was 12, but didn't get to these two places when I was there. Just another reason to go back!
I recently read "The Rose without a Thorn" about Katherine Howard and I was thinking about what type of person Lady Rochford was while I was reading it. I decided she reminded me of Linda Tripp, remember her from the Monica Lewinsky scandal? She encourages people to confide in her like it's all innocent girl talk, pushes them to go for it, and then rats them out. One of those people who have to insert themselves in every drama. If there had been tape recorders in the Tudor Court, Lady Rochford would have been wiretapping everyone.
LMAO Toni! What a funny parallel to draw for those two women!
Hi ColleenIn reply to your query about the cover pic of Lacey Baldwin Smith's book, Amazon has a draft of the cover, the actual book uses a different picture. There is no true likeness of Catherine Howard. We ended up using a stained glass image that was designed as a representation of Catherine.
Jonathan
In regards to Henry 8's bathing habits, that is what perfume was for to hide the stench.
Toni, I love the comparison!! It made me giggle!! I think Lady Rochford would have been a wiretapping fiend!!Jayme, yes, perfume was used as well as pomanders, so the King wouldn't have to smell bad smells!!
He should have looked in the mirror :)
Does that make Monica KH and Hillary KA and Bill HVIII? Maybe someday, hundreds of years from now, people will be writing historical fiction about American presidencies. There is some juicy material there...
Henry was, for his time, a very clean monarch. The excavations in Whitehall in the 1930s rediscovered the baths that he had had constructed, and the ones in Hampton Court featured a boiler for hot water. It's doubtful we'd consider him clean, but his account books show entries "for making clean the King's robes". Don't know what the 16th century version of dry cleaning would have been! and I suspect that certainly in his younger years, any pong on the part of Henry was more due to the clothes he was wearing. Shifts (made of cotton or linen) could be -- and were -- laundered, but not the silks and velvets, which were stored with lavender and other aromatic herbs to address the odor question and to deal with fleas, moths and other critters.
Tudor History Lovers
Books mentioned in this topic
The Origins of the Second World War (other topics)Divorced, Beheaded, Survived: A Feminist Reinterpretation of the Wives of Henry VIII (other topics)
A Tudor Tragedy: The Life and Times of Catherine Howard (other topics)
The Fifth Queen (other topics)
Lady Jane Grey (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
A.J.P. Taylor (other topics)A.L. Rowse (other topics)
A.L. Rowse (other topics)
Kenneth Clark (other topics)
A.L. Rowse (other topics)
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Unfortunately I am not lucky as you are to have access to primary sources (which I know they are the base to make a historically judgement), but I state my argument based on what my teachers said. Maybe they have something published in the University Magazine, but Spanish historians tend to focus mainly in Spain's issues rather than other countries', since they are not an authority on the subject of English History.
Re anglophile readings of the Tudors -- certainly that's true, and it's hardly surprising, given that they were English monarchs!!
Sorry, I don't know if you are laughing at me or trying to be witty or both. I was only stating my opinion about that, not trying to be pejorative. From my point of view, I find them anglophile; KoA tends to be represented as an ugly old woman in most (not all) movies/books/representations, Chapuys and company dress in darkk robes and a strange music sounds every moment they show up xD Or poor Felipe II in the Elizabeth movies... Thus, they offer an anglophile view, and these movies or books are certainly not made by English Monarchs.
But I guess we spanish people can do nothing over the english people's Renaissance picture of us. As evil, treacherous buglars xD If not, look at every work of that time featuring a Spanish character :/