Doctor Who: The Library of Carsus discussion
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A US Version of Torchwood
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in the immortal words of Willie, "I dina cry when me own father was hung for stealin' a pig, but I'll cry now."Cant the BBC just keep making them and run them on BBC America. If they use the Capt. Jack character without using the actor John Barrowman then somebody needs to be punched in the face.
Bizarre news. Who is the target market, the people who already watch Torchwood??--The Master
I suppose it must be. Children of Earth pulled a very respectable rating when it aired on BBC America. FOX and Russell T. Davies must believe a 'hip, edgy, Americanized' version of the show will do even better. They are in for a surprise, methinks. Even if John Barrowman is on-board for the show, I still give this a slim chance of success. If Barrowman isn't available or doesn't want to do it and they recast Jack, I give it a 0% chance of lasting a whole season without getting cancelled.
I'm sure there will be whispers of a US Doctor Who before too long. Before any stupid television execs get the idea in their heads: they tried it before. It was abysmal. Leave it alone.
I'm sure there will be whispers of a US Doctor Who before too long. Before any stupid television execs get the idea in their heads: they tried it before. It was abysmal. Leave it alone.
Just because it's being made in the US it doesn't actually mean that it's a remake. It could carry on the previous series and, I suspect, with RTD and Julie Gardner involved, that there will ties to the earlier series. From a fictional point of view though I can't see a good reason for Torchwood (the organisation, that is) to relocate to the US given that it's supposedly a UK organistation rather than a global one, like UNIT. Perhaps with Torchwood more or less destroyed following Children of Earth, Jack decides to borrow the name and set up a new organisation in the US.
All in all it sounds interesting and I am tentaively optimistic about this. Knowing that RTD is working on it is particularly reassuring.
As much as I don't like the idea of shows being remade, it has to be said that the more input from the original shows creators, the better it turns out to be, like The Office.
Matthew wrote: FOX and Russell T. Davies must believe a 'hip, edgy, Americanized' version of the show will do even better. They are in for a surprise, methinks.Considering the U.S. industry's attitudes toward sex and violence (sex bad, violence great) I find the notion baffling. Unless they've decided the rules can be different if the lead is gay or an alien? Meh, I still can't see Fox taking a risk on *anything*.
The only way I can see this working is if they file off the numbers and go back to first principals (i.e. What was Torchwood supposed to be about, anyway?) Oh, wait, Canada already has one: It's called Sanctuary.
Mark wrote: From a fictional point of view though I can't see a good reason for Torchwood (the organisation, that is) to relocate to the US given that it's supposedly a UK organistation rather than a global one, like UNIT.Given RTD's track record of accuracy in references to classic Doctor Who (i.e. 0%) and reputation for disregarding continuity in *anything* he's worked on, I would bet this is *not* something they will give any thought to.
Mark wrote: Knowing that RTD is working on it is particularly reassuring.Possibly. His one episode and P. J. Hammond's two were the only ones I can say I liked. But Fox doesn't want to repeat the success of *those* episodes. They want whatever made viewers tune in week after week.
Given RTD's track record of accuracy in references to classic Doctor Who (i.e. 0%) and reputation for disregarding continuity in *anything* he's worked on, I would bet this is *not* something they will give any thought to.
I wasn't aware that his accuracy was that poor. I thought it was fairly good to be honest. Care to give any examples?
I have to say I'm more worried about Fox than RTD to be honest. Remember how well they treated Firefly anyone . . .
The first time Capt Jack grabs some guys ass Fox will be pelted with letters from the Pat Robertson/Sarah Palin/Rush Limbaugh crowd and yank the series. Why bother?
Mark wrote: Care to give any examples?Off the top of my head and late at night--not so much. It would be easier if someone asked a question beginning "Is it true that in the old series...?"
And I really don't want to rehash all the essays people have written already. So can I just do a simple list?
Let's see:
- Doctor Who is like Star Trek, only with magic. And the solution to all problems is waving a magic wand or shooting something. (Unless the story is by Steven Moffat.)
- Doctor Who is about confirming the natural superiority of one party's position, not about rivals having to cooperate if they want to survive.
- One can't be accepted by strangers without "psychic paper". A phony ID is sufficient to get you accepted by strangers. (Anyone remember the Doctor's salvage license in "Nightmare of Eden"? And what episode was it (third Doctor?) in which his valid ID was dismissed with a simple "Forged, no doubt.")
- A "sonic screwdriver" is a great idea and the old series was crazy to get rid of it.
- The TARDIS acts as a universal translator with the Doctor as one of its vital components. So those episodes in the old series with the companions on their own or the TARDIS destroyed or hundreds of thousands of miles away didn't happen, and companions who stayed on other planets or in other times were screwed. (Go on, ask me how *I* always thought the translation worked.)
- TARDIS exterior. TARDIS real-world interface.
- The Doctor.
- Sarah.
- Cybermen. And if two things have the same name, they're really the same thing.
- All aliens (including the Doctor) are stupid and malevolent.
- All aliens that look like humans are humans (except the Doctor, who's only alien on the inside).
- The Doctor's prime motivating factor is impressing London girls.
- The TARDIS can travel anywhen.
- While we're on the subject, in the old series the TARDIS is powered by Gallifrey, and in the new series there is no Gallifrey. So...?
- While we're on the subject, in the old series "Time Lord powers" and regeneration are powered by Gallifrey and controlled by Time Lords, and in the new series there is no Gallifrey or Time Lords. So...?
- The Doctor is currently about 904 years old despite being 953 in "Time and the Rani". And the old series Doctors lived more than a hundred years each, but the new series Doctors live four years if they're lucky.
Mind you, this is just off the top of my head. Other contradictions and bad retcons will no doubt come to mind when I'm unable to get to a computer.
"The Doctor's prime motivating factor is impressing London girls."It's funny cos it's true!!!!
Leela4 wrote: "Mark wrote: Care to give any examples?Off the top of my head and late at night--not so much. It would be easier if someone asked a question beginning "Is it true that in the old series...?"
And..."
Well that is quite a list! Some of the things you've listed I broadly agree with,some I don't agree with entirely. I'd love to go through each of your points and give my thoughts but it's late so that might have to wait for another day.
But (keeping with the main topic of the thread) Doctor Who's continuity is a large and unwieldly beast. It's been overwritten, retconned and in some cases ignored many times by many different production teams over the years. RTD is just the latest in a long line of producers, writers, sript editors etc to have played with the toys in this particular toy box. I would say he is little different from someone like, say, John Nathan Turner or Philip Hinchcliffe who also tinkered with what was at the time established continuity.
Torchwood is different in that's a smaller, younger series and thus it's continuity/history is less vast and cumbersome. Also it's RTD's show. He created the concept and the characters and so probably has a better understanding than virtually anyone else. I would certainly rather he was in charge of any possible US version of the show than someone else. THe only other person I could see being a good showrunner for the series would be Chris Chibnell as he wrote the bulk of the Series 1 and 2 episodes.
Leela4 wrote:"- The TARDIS acts as a universal translator with the Doctor as one of its vital components. So those episodes in the old series with the companions on their own or the TARDIS destroyed or hundreds of thousands of miles away didn't happen, and companions who stayed on other planets or in other times were screwed. (Go on, ask me how *I* always thought the translation worked.)"Big Finish Productions story 'The Word Lord' in the Fourty-Five year anniversary CD:
"Oh, and Doctor, all the delegates want to know why they no longer need their translators." - The Brigadeer (I think)
Addendum:And another one on a par with the magic wand, er, sonic screwdriver:
- The TARDIS navigation system works fine, despite now being a heap of junk. So if the TARDIS doesn't arrive where it's supposed to, it's because the Doctor's an idiot or the TARDIS collides with something. This allows frequent trips "home" to the right and proper world of 21st century London, thus making it convenient to consider the TARDIS a touring coach, and all non-London places silly, freaky, pretentious, and--above all--temporary inconveniences.
Re: The Doctor's screwy age.
I've always thought that the Doctor just lost track of his own age, because even the old series muffed it up from time to time. I mean, wouldn't you stop caring how many years you've been around after your 217th birthday?
Either that, or a 'year' to a Time Lord is different to a human year. Regardless, it's never been something I've been overly worried about.
I've always thought that the Doctor just lost track of his own age, because even the old series muffed it up from time to time. I mean, wouldn't you stop caring how many years you've been around after your 217th birthday?
Either that, or a 'year' to a Time Lord is different to a human year. Regardless, it's never been something I've been overly worried about.
According to BFA, the eighth doctor is at least 960; and in the 6th doctor story "The One Doctor", the doctor talks about the birthday wishes he made on his 900th birthday.
According to BFA, the eighth doctor is at least 960If we take into account post-series materials: The seventh Doctor passed his 1000th birthday in the NA "Set Piece", regenerated into the eighth Doctor at 1009 according to the EDA "Vampire Science", spent years away from Sam on a couple of occasions in the EDAs, spent a hundred years roaming the Earth waiting for the TARDIS to heal in the EDAs, spent more years travelling with Fitz and Anji, then Fitz and Trix... And how many years should one add between that and the end of Davies's Time War? And then how long until the ninth Doctor met Rose?
Matthew wrote: "I've always thought that the Doctor just lost track of his own age, because even the old series muffed it up from time to time. I mean, wouldn't you stop caring..."Not plausible that he'd continue to give the same wrong number for hundreds of years. It would edge upwards. And what's wrong with something like "I don't know. Hundreds of years. Thousands."
Now if he was deliberately misrepresenting, that would work. But Russell T Davies scuttled that with the very precise 903 in "Voyage of the Damned".
in the 6th doctor story "The One Doctor", the doctor talks about the birthday wishes he made on his 900th birthdayAnyone know which TV episode it was that the sixth Doctor refers to himself as "a 900-year-old Time Lord"?
He also says he's
- "only 900 years old" in "The Trial of a Time Lord" part 1 (aka "The Mysterious Planet" part 1) and
- "over 900 years" in "The Trial of a Time Lord" part 14 (aka "The Ultimate Foe" part 2).
Leela4 wrote: "Not plausible that he'd continue to give the same wrong number for hundreds of years. It would edge upwards."
It's completely plausible if he doesn't actually know or remember how old he really is.
And what's wrong with something like "I don't know. Hundreds of years. Thousands."
Indeed. Wish they would've done that. That would put an end to all this nonsense.
I guess if the 903 bothers the big continuity cops that much, they can just pretend the Doctor has some amnesia or something and can't remember a whole bunch of years during the Time War, the pre-Unearthly Child days, or the gap after Trial of a Time Lord, etc.
It's completely plausible if he doesn't actually know or remember how old he really is.
And what's wrong with something like "I don't know. Hundreds of years. Thousands."
Indeed. Wish they would've done that. That would put an end to all this nonsense.
I guess if the 903 bothers the big continuity cops that much, they can just pretend the Doctor has some amnesia or something and can't remember a whole bunch of years during the Time War, the pre-Unearthly Child days, or the gap after Trial of a Time Lord, etc.
I remember reading a fanfic that said something like "Why do people think I've been piloting a TARDIS since I was in diapers?"--It was a reaction to people interpreting Steven Moffat's "900 years of TARDIS travel" in "The Empty Child" as the Doctor saying he's 900 years old.
And the ironic thing is Romana (1) *said* how long he's been piloting a TARDIS. ("The Pirate Planet", I think)
Matthew wrote: "the big continuity cops"It's not the continuity that irks people, it's that someone who clearly doesn't care keeps demanding that people are only allowed to think about Doctor Who *his* way. The Doctor *is* a useless git. He *is* 900 when he meets Rose. He isn't *really* an alien, he just needs to find the right girl to set him straight (nudge-nudge). London *is* the only sensible place in the universe. Women *are* predators. The only *real* solution to any big problem is guns or magic; ordinary people shouldn't even bother. Etc.
Ok, here's my continuity patch:The time war retroactivly changed the timelines (We already knew that), and so anything that the doctor had done during the time war, or on skaro, was cleaned from his history, effectivly cutting a hundred years from his life.
On the Doctor's age - straight from the mouth of current producer Mr. Moffat in last month's SFX Magazine...
"...I think it's a central part of the show that he not only travels in time but he actually lives inside a time machine. That's where he lives, so the whole world, the whole universe, is alive to him. It's a very different perspective. The thing I keep banging on about is that he doesn't know what age he is. He's lying. How could he know unless he's marking it on a wall? He could be 8,000 years old, he could be a million. He has no clue. The calendar will give him no clues."
This has pretty much always been how I looked at it too.
And, just to steer this thread back on track somewhat - word is now that FOX is passing on producing Torchwood. RTD and co are apparently shopping the show around to other networks.
"...I think it's a central part of the show that he not only travels in time but he actually lives inside a time machine. That's where he lives, so the whole world, the whole universe, is alive to him. It's a very different perspective. The thing I keep banging on about is that he doesn't know what age he is. He's lying. How could he know unless he's marking it on a wall? He could be 8,000 years old, he could be a million. He has no clue. The calendar will give him no clues."
This has pretty much always been how I looked at it too.
And, just to steer this thread back on track somewhat - word is now that FOX is passing on producing Torchwood. RTD and co are apparently shopping the show around to other networks.
Have to agree with Leela4. While I don't think we should be beholden to the "classic" Who series as, let's face it, an awful lot of it wasn't particularly classic, RTD did bring in an awful lot of tropes that I don't particularly welcome, the magic wand sonic screwdriver being about the worst. As for Torchwood...can I be terribly controversial here and say, although I admit I haven't watched Children of Earth, that I don't care for that show at all? I found it tonally schizophrenic, puerile, controversial for its own sake ("ooh look! another same-sex kiss/relationship! aren't we DARING!") and I found one Captain Jack quote about how he, as what can only be described as an omnisexual slut, is so much more "advanced" than we "pigeonholed" 21st Century folk to be downright insulting. Imagine if a heterosexual showrunner had allowed a comment in an episode of his show from someone from the future about how gay people were "less advanced" - there'd have been absolute uproar, and quite rightly so.
I'm also of the view that John Barrowman is without a doubt one of the biggest talent vacuums ever to work in British television. I mean for Gods sake, we're supposed to take this man seriously as a time-travelling badass conman / policeman? He cannot act. He is music hall. Look at "Tonight's The Night" for the love of God. LOOK at it and tell me your eyeballs don't bleed and your brain doesn't try to hang itself using your spinal column as a makeshift noose.
Perhaps if America DID remake Torchwood, with their sensitivities towards oversexed storylines, they'd actually weed out everything that's wrong with the show and we'd be left with what I was originally hoping for - basically, Doctor Who with swears...
Laurence: "As for Torchwood...can I be terribly controversial here and say, although I admit I haven't watched Children of Earth, that I don't care for that show at all? I found it tonally schizophrenic, puerile, controversial for its own sake ("ooh look! another same-sex kiss/relationship! aren't we DARING!")" Laurence does have a point... it's one thing to have adult content, but it's another to do it in a way that it seems to just keep drawing attention to itself. Torchwood's best episodes were ones that focused more on their stories and less on trying to be so edgy and "mature." I enjoyed Torchwood (until they killed Tosh, who was my favorite character, then I only half-heartedly sat through "Children of Earth"), but I do agree that there were times when they seemed to just shine a big bright spotlight on the racy things, and that got old quickly. It's possible to make an edgy, mature-themed show without holding up a big neon sign during the less kid-friendly moments that says, "OHHH, LOOK AT THIS!" Torchwood didn't quite achieve that.
> but I do agree that there were times when they seemed to just shine a big bright spotlight on the racy things, and that got old quickly.It's juvenile. Which is probably the point.
I make the same complaint about books. Once you're over twenty-five it's "seen it, it's rubbish. Don't you have anything for *real* adults instead of immature ones? Or at least something that doesn't seem contrived?"
> It's possible to make an edgy, mature-themed show without holding up a big neon sign during the less kid-friendly moments that says, "OHHH, LOOK AT THIS!"
Rock 'n Roll has got to go! Why, just listen to this horrible song...
> Torchwood didn't quite achieve that.
But the American film industry certainly aren't capable of it. Everything vaguely sexual or sensual in American TV or film has that virginal "Ooh, look, look! Nauuuughty!" vibe.
The only film industry I know of that can make (or has made, anyway) "an edgy, mature-themed show" is eastern Canada's. For example, the third season of Forever Knight (for example "Hearts of Darkness", "Sons of Belial"), or Lexx seasons 2-4 (for example "Mantrid", "Gametown", never mind the more obvious episodes). --Er, not that I'd call these shows "mature", but they sure aren't aimed at 14-year-olds like Torchwood.
My 18-year old son says to tell you all to watch Spartacus Blood and Sand, for an American-made show that has lots of blood, gore and sex. He also loved Battlestar Galactica, which he and my husband watched religiously, but I got sick of after the first few episodes, due to having to watch the bad guy, who was so obviously evil, and the bad woman, who was so obviously COLD in every scene, pull the wool over everyone else's eyes. But they told me I just didn't give it a good enough viewing. Oh well...actually I really liked Torchwood, but did not see the last episode because all 4 of my kids and my husband warned me that I would be too depressed and upset by the ending, and I accepted their knowledge of me and my sensibilities...plus I'm too busy writing when I'm not working, to have time to watch TV anymore!
Oh and Laurence, I LOVE your way with words! That quip about your brain trying to hang itself with your own spinal cord? Priceless imagery! Please keep writing! And my offer to read your WIP still stands.
Credit where it's due Fiona - I'm merely paying unworthy homage to the king of the angry metaphor, Charlie Brooker. He's a newspaper columnist and something of a rising TV star over here in the UK and to say his wit is somewhat acidic would be like saying the Daleks are quite forthright in their views.You can read some of his columns at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/cha...
I love Captain Jack ( in a very manly hetero way) but I am done with Torchwood. The first two seasons were so wildly uneven and 'Children of Earth' was one of the best stories they have done had one of the worst resolutions in the history of bad writing.I'll stick to reading the books. Those I enjoyed.
http://www.sfx.co.uk/page/sfx?entry=f...
Because, you know, American remakes of British shows over the years have been so DYNAMITE!