Is Mormonism a form of Christianity?

[Lady Turtles]

Beth A. wrote: "It doesn't matter,except for clarifying I suppose. He was gone a year ago I think. This thread has been going on sporadically since 2010. Just wanted to argue I think because it got kept up with hi..."

Oh wow, You're right this thread is old. I didn't even notice the dates when I'm commented.

[[deleted user]]

Emily wrote: "Oh gosh. Notice a lot of this is from the Journal of Discourses. Inaccurate, made and promoted by anti-mormons. I do not worship Joseph Smith. Never have, never will. Can someone please set that in..."

"A lot of this", try two passages. And...

The Journal of Discourses (often abbreviated J.D.) is a 26-volume collection of public sermons by early leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). The first editions of the Journal were published in England by George D. Watt, the stenographer of Brigham Young. Publication began in 1854, with the endorsement of the church's First Presidency,[1] and ended in 1886. The Journal is one of the richest sources of early Mormon theology and thinking. It includes 1,438 sermons given by 55 church leaders, including most numerously Brigham Young, John Taylor, Orson Pratt, Heber C. Kimball, and George Q. Cannon.

So, are you saying that the LDS is anti-mormon?

[[deleted user]]

Cheer wrote: "...too bad you don't have accurate information."

This is what you've all said through out this thread, but the non-Mormons seem to be more educated about Mormonism than the Mormons.

[[deleted user]]

Michael wrote: "The short answer - No, Mormons are not Christians. They believe that Jesus Christ was a man, only a man. They also believe that we can become a god- which we cannot. They believe that Joseph Smith ..."

Not to mention the extensive list of failed prophecies from their Christ aka Joseph Smith and the even longer list of failed prophets, which automatically falsifies their religion by the law of bible.

They can't say that they don't worship Joseph Smith, if they don't, then they won't get their own planet and become gods. As it's written in their supposedly holy book.

Personally, I think they're all morons. The outright stupidity and ignorance of believing that American Indians were direct decedents of the Israelite Jews is simply breath taking. It really shows how retarded people will make themselves in order to attain some kind of faith. And how many of these assholes actually believe that Joseph Smith was right when he prophesied that the moon was inhabited by Quakers?

[Emily]

Michael wrote: "The short answer - No, Mormons are not Christians. They believe that Jesus Christ was a man, only a man. They also believe that we can become a god- which we cannot. They believe that Joseph Smith ..."

Excuse me? wow. Considering that we are the Church of JESUS CHRIST of latter day saints... yeah. I don't know where you pulled that from. If you've ever set foot in one of our church services, you'll know very quickly that you are mistaken. I do accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior and the savior of all man kind. Any questions? I sure hope not.

And I'm pretty much done arguing with Paul. If you want to look down on us all and think you're so much smarter. Be my guest. It's your life. If you want to hate or have a sore adittude towards us, I could care less. There are millions that are exactly like you.

[Benjamin]

Emily wrote: "Oh gosh. Notice a lot of this is from the Journal of Discourses. Inaccurate, made and promoted by anti-mormons. I do not worship Joseph Smith. Never have, never will. Can someone please set that in..."

First, I agree with you and Taylor, Pauls etiquette is silly and unhelpful, not to mention upsetting and offensive. But nevertheless he has a point, it is concerning that your church leaders, the founders of the Mormon religion said and believed these things. If church leaders and the churches writings don't influence your beliefs, then what does?

[Emily]

What church leaders say has a huge impact on my life. I honestly write about 17 pages of notes every General Conference. In my opinion (note: opinion)back then, the church leaders were still trying to figure things out. There were people who doubted or let others influence what they said, things were just chaotic and current situations ofter got in their way. They're human too. They made mistakes. A lot of people are prompted by the Spirit to do or say a certain thing, but a lot of the time they don't or they say it the wrong way. That doesn't mean they didn't have a prompting. It just means they didn't act on it the way they should have. Not sure that makes sense but I try.

[Noel]

Michael wrote: "The saddest part of this discussion, and many others with mormons, is that mormons seem to be unwilling to examine the greater questions and seek information outside of their church. When a mormon ..."

So you are telling me and all the other members of our church that if we go and look at other churches that's okay cause a friend asked but then when we say then you should come to mine its wrong? that is so dumb. and hypocritical. and have you ever read the book of Mormon? because it is another testament of Christ and testifies of Christ throughout. Read it and maybe you will be more willing to at least stop telling us that what we believe is wrong!

[Beth A.]

Sighs..I really don't intend to discuss further only regretting I didn't let this die when I made my point and making sure it was seen.

Testimony...not just faith but a spiritual experience that becomes a testimony...I do look at anything worth paying intention to or I wouldn't be here. Good reads isn't all about church books lol. Nor am I here just to allow zombie threads from three years ago to wobble hungrily along. It just happens sometimes though.

Anyways...that aside if you have a spiritual testimony...you feel you have confirmed the truth as much as need be. Therefore there is no need to look for anything else..otherwise you do not have a testimony.

That is the point....and frankly I don't want anybody at my church that doesn't have one and is just going through the motions/not smart enough to even think about other options. Not the kindest of feelings I guess but it bugs.
Those people do exist it's true,but they don't account for all.

[Wtfdyt]

Beth, spiritual testimony is not valid in court, a lab or anywhere else other than your own personal life.

Please, use whatever you wish to make decisions about your own life, but when your (church's) beliefs interfere with the rights of others (reproductive choices, who you can marry, making people pray to a christian god in school), then use common sense instead of spiritual belief.

My point is that spiritual testimony, BECAUSE it is personal and not objective, is only good for your own personal life decisions, and should be kept out of the public sphere.

[[deleted user]]

Ooh, that's interesting. Okay, so when you have an opinion, Wyfdyt, then please keep it quiet, because it is your own personal belief and should be kept out of "the public sphere."

I thought this was a topic on Mormonism, not censorship. Excuse me while I go make sure I'm allowed to still share my testimony with others...because HEAVEN FORBID that I share my feelings on a feeling-based idea such as religion when it's not appropriate.

[[deleted user]]

Also, in consideration of the LDS "interference" with things such as homosexual relations, you have made some conclusions that aren't quite accurate. You blame us for turning the tide on such controversial issues, but the only reason we do such things is because of the freedom to vote on the issues. Besides, there are only something like 6.5 million Mormons in the U.S. Hardly enough for a majority vote.

And it's not like the homosexual people will stop getting into bed together even if it is illegal. So the LDS perspective interferes very little with others' lifestyle.

[[deleted user]]

Hey Taylor, it's time to beam back down to reality.

http://www.examiner.com/article/mormo...

This went much further than the freedom to vote. The LDS was caught cooking the books on how much money they spent to campgian for prop 8, fully aware that they could lose their tax exempt status. Their interference was criminal and they should have lost their status as should every other church involved.

And the very idea that you are so nonchalant about conspiring to diminish the rights of others really speaks volumes about your character.

Then again, it's not like your organization hooked electrodes up to the testicles of accused homosexuals or anything... oh, wait.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mormon-g...

[Joseph]

Yes, I believe we are Christan

[Wtfdyt]

Taylor Mefford wrote: "Ooh, that's interesting. Okay, so when you have an opinion, Wyfdyt, then please keep it quiet, because it is your own personal belief and should be kept out of "the public sphere."
"


I will defend to the death your RIGHT to have those opinions, but I will fight in the political and public arena to prevent you from making our citizens stupid (taking away sex education and teaching evolution in public schools), scared ("God's gonna punish yew!") or ill-informed ("If you give the LDS 10% of your money, you get to make your own planet after you die!").

Joseph: Why? If it's just the name of your church, then if I name my bordello the "Jesus Christ Whorehouse of Saints Getting Laid", does that make me a Christian pimp?

[[deleted user]]

Yes, let's take a trip to reality. The reality is, Paul, I don't conspire "to diminish the rights of others." Neither do those in my sphere of interaction at church. So for you to make such a claim proves to me and all the people who come on here that you are a hateful, disillusioned fool. Back it up. I want you to show me how I am fighting against the right for gay marriage. Not my father, not my bishop...me.

It's interesting that you, who hates the idea of Mormons discriminating against homosexuals, would be appalled by their attempts to see what they could do to help people who don't want those temptations to commit sexual sin. Read it again -- what you'll notice is that the man who was first mentioned was okay with the experiment. HE signed up, HE increased the intensity, and HE wanted to be able to live without homosexual feelings. The scientists who were in charge of the experiment merely were...experimenting. They weren't tormenting homosexuals against their will.

[[deleted user]]

Taylor, you are involved with an organization that unlawfully interfered with a democratic vote in the name of prejudice. You can be emotional and you can try and turn me words on me, but my post is very clear and the facts have been given. In your previous post you tried to down play your churches involvement and now you are trying to gloss over the facts with name calling.

So, the fact that the beliefs they follow that tells them they shouldn't be who they are makes it okay that an accredited university was using electrode shock therapy against homosexuals?

Do you know how psychotic you sound, Taylor?

Would Jesus approve of this behavior? I think not.

[James]

Taylor Mefford wrote: "Yes, let's take a trip to reality. The reality is, Paul, I don't conspire "to diminish the rights of others." Neither do those in my sphere of interaction at church. So for you to make such a claim..."
Taylor I agree with everything Paul's saying. Guess what? I've got family ties to Mormonism; some of my second cousins are Mormons. My grandma was raised a Mormon, and my father was to a very small extent. Ok... don't be ignorant. As a bisexual, I am also offended by your statement(I'm paraprhaseing so don't accuse of twisting words)that if gay sex was illegal gays would still do it. Ever hear of the Oscar Wilde scandal? What about the Stonewall Riots? Criminalized gay sex would be detremental to thoose who partake in it,obviously. Even if it wasn't, it'd still be an irrational human rights insult. And also Mormons gave 50% of the money to prop 8 even though they make up 2% of California's population. Like I said Taylor, don't be ignorant.

[James]

Paul wrote: "Taylor, you are involved with an organization that unlawfully interfered with a democratic vote in the name of prejudice. You can be emotional and you can try and turn me words on me, but my post i..."
It's interesting how you, the critic of Moromonism, was the only one to cite information.

[Jirka]

Interesting discussion here.
I can say from my own experience: I consider myself being "Christian" because I believe Jesus Christ and I belong to the Catholic church whose head is Christ. When the Mormon missionaries visited me, they said that I must be re-baptized to become a member of their group. They said, that other Christian denominations (Catholics, Protestants) didn't have the proper priesthood authority to baptize. I researched a little bit on this topic and I found out that Roman Catholic church also doens't regard the Mormon baptism as valid. The way I see it, there's a lot of room for both Mormons and "Mainstream" Christians to become more focused on Christ who should be at the core of their faith. For example, lot of Mormons have big houses and only travel by car which show that they don't really care about the Environment which is God's creation. On the other hand lot of Catholics don't really make an effort to share the Gospel.
Also if somebody calls himself "Christian" it's a bit tricky, Christ himself says "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ..." So Professing Christ by mouth is not enough, Christianity is also about your actions. What the Mormons seem to have figured out is good organization (everybody is assigned a position - "calling" to help the community), but the down side is a kind of controlling people. Personally I didn't have much sense of belonging when visiting the Mormon activities. Also the Mormon position on marriage, insisting that everybody should get married (correct me if I'm wrong on this), seems too extreme to me.

[David]

A Christian is somome who belives in Christ. The Mormons or members of the Church of JESUS CHIRST of Laterday Saints belive in Chirst. Therefore Mormons are Christians

[Gearbox]

David,

I had to sign up just to say that this is the dumbest argument I've ever seen.

So if I started a Church where you could sin and lie and do whatever your wanted and called it the "Jesus Christ Church of Poker and Drinking with Whores", then I'm following in Christ's footsteps?

Now, I'm not saying that Mormons do all that, just that your argument that the name of something makes it true is ridiculous.

[Izzy]

Gearbox wrote: "David,

I had to sign up just to say that this is the dumbest argument I've ever seen.

So if I started a Church where you could sin and lie and do whatever your wanted and called it the "Jesus Chr..."

I agree that a name doesn't make a Church Christian. I don't think it's Christian for one simple reason. It's a polytheism.

[Arlo]

The question of this discussion may seem like a dead horse, but there's yet another slant to it. I say, Yes, Mormons are Christians, unfortunately for them.

Here's the way it works: Christianity was defined by the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, and it is still effectively the litmus test today. Mormonism passes that test. Unfortunately for Mormons (and the rest of "Christianity"), the dogma enshrined at Nicea was not the essence of the actual teachings of Jesus. The "Christian" world has gone off in another direction.

This means that Mormonism is just tagging only with the rest of the nominally Christian world -- not a restoration of the original teachings, as advertised.

To get a sense of what those original teachings were, I recommend the findings from the Nag Hamadi library, and the early Gnostics. But, I already know that hardly anyone will take the trouble to look into it that far. It's just easier to think you're right to begin with.

[BJ]

~♥Alyssa♥~ wrote: "Oh, and in another comment, Monkey, you asked why women can't have the priesthood. I used to really struggle with that. But tell me, to be equal, do you have to be exactly the same? Women have diff..."

Agreed!!
PS: There ARE more Gods (An infinite number) out there, we just don't worship them. Also, some people will be gods themselves someday.

Sorry if this point is already made, I just skimmed through the first page. :)

[Benjamin]

But BJ if that is what Mormonism is, how can it be considered in any meaningful sense Christian? Christians have always considered such beliefs heretical. However, if you are correct and the very first Christians taught what you believe, then all of Christendom has been in heresy all along or at the very least severely mistaken. Either way you slice it, it seems pointless if not untenable to consider Mormonism a Christian sect.

[Shanna]

Benjamin wrote: "But BJ if that is what Mormonism is, how can it be considered in any meaningful sense Christian? Christians have always considered such beliefs heretical. However, if you are correct and the very f..."

Arlo not BJ,

The defining tenet of christianity is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your savior, Mormons as, I understand it, do so. All else is "I like chocolate and not vanilla" one man's heresy is another's truth, which why there are so many versions. It's all a load of unprovable bunk anyway.

[Benjamin]

Shanna, that definition seems far too broad, it makes the definition of Christianity meaningless, anyone could define what it means for Jesus Christ to be their savior and call themselves Christian. Thus if what you say is true, it seems pointless for anyone to call themselves Christian. It would hold about as much meaning as someone saying they like a certain kind of cereal. Christianity would be completely subjective. Mormons claim that Christ saves us by allowing us to actually become gods (if I understand their view of atonement correctly). Gandhi thought himself a Christian because he accepted Christ as an excellent moral guide and in that sense he was a savior.

[BJ]

Benjamin wrote: "But BJ if that is what Mormonism is, how can it be considered in any meaningful sense Christian? Christians have always considered such beliefs heretical. However, if you are correct and the very f..."

Well, we believe in God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost, but people don't count us as Christians because we believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three different personages (Which they are)-and everyone else thinks they are one person.

Also, people don't believe we are Christians because we don't believe in the cross, the testification of the dead Christ. But The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints testifies of the live Christ. To read more, visit http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/e...

AND, Mormonism isn't all the infinite number of Gods out there, but it's SO MUCH MORE. It would probably be better to go to mormon.org

[Shanna]

Benjamin wrote: "Shanna, that definition seems far too broad, it makes the definition of Christianity meaningless, anyone could define what it means for Jesus Christ to be their savior and call themselves Christian..."

Such is the problem of religion and playing the "No True Scotsman" fallacy...

The first and most basic thing one must do as a christian is accept Christ as savior, Mormons do so. And like I said you want to play chocolate or vanilla, mormon or baptist, all the rest is all just personal preferance and flavours... and the justification for sectarianism world wide...

[Shanna]

BJ wrote: "Well, we believe in God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost, but people don't count us as Christians because we believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three different personages (Which they are)-and everyone else thinks they are one person.

Not strictly specking true that "everyone" thinks they are one person


Also, people don't believe we are Christians because we don't believe in the cross, the testification of the dead Christ. But The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints testifies of the live Christ. To read more, visit http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/e...

Love how the Jesus of the link is blond...


AND, Mormonism isn't all the infinite number of Gods out there, but it's SO MUCH MORE. It would probably be better to go to mormon.org "

How exactly does it work?

[BJ]

Shanna wrote:
How exactly does it work?

Well, I read a book called The Kolob Theorem (Great book, but not official doctrine), and the author thinks that the Milky Way is Heavenly Father's dominion, and all of the other galaxies are Heavenly Father's relatives' dominions.. No Church doctrine teaches so, but it seems pretty reasonable.

[Benjamin]

Shanna wrote: "Benjamin wrote: "Shanna, that definition seems far too broad, it makes the definition of Christianity meaningless, anyone could define what it means for Jesus Christ to be their savior and call the..."

No its not the no true Scotsman fallacy. The NTSF only applies to those situations where someone or something is defined outside of a category based on a property of that something which has nothing to do with the definition of the category. But Christianity has to be defined as a worldview, a perspective about how the world is. Therefore, if Mormons have a significantly different worldview than Christianity their worldview cannot be considered Christian. Mormons reject monotheism, the Trinity, the immateriality of God, they reject the authority of the Catholic church, the five sola's, the authority of the Greek Orthodox church, the eternality of God, they even believe that humans can become god's in a quite literal way. Apart from naming the three main god's they believe in The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost, there is very little the Mormon view of God and the Christian view of God have in common. Again, I find it very difficult to fit Mormonism within the realms of the Christian worldview.

[BJ]

Benjamin wrote: "Shanna wrote: "Benjamin wrote: "Shanna, that definition seems far too broad, it makes the definition of Christianity meaningless, anyone could define what it means for Jesus Christ to be their savi..."

I think you got my message wrong:

God is a real, tangible being,
God is eternal,
We ARE monotheistic,
Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are NOT gods,
Jesus is the SON of God, the Holy Ghost is a spirit that prompts us to choose the right,
you have our beliefs ALL WRONG.

[BJ]

Let me get things straight:
#1: Heavenly Father is a real, tangible being,
#2: Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are NOT gods
#3: We are monotheistic, and
#4: God is eternal.

[Benjamin]

I’m talking about traditional Mormonism. There is no question that Joseph Smith was, Brigham Young, among the other founders of the LDS church. affirmed a form of polytheism (perhaps Henotheism if they didn’t worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit). A famous early apologist of Mormonism Parley Pratt, actually wrote a philosophical defense of materialism. He believed Mormonism was committed to believing that everything, even spiritual things were forms of matter, including God and the lesser gods. If you go to the website fairlds.org you can find additional defenses of similar Mormon doctrines such as the idea that God and man are of the same species and that man actually can evolve, in a sense, into a god.

If you believe those things personally, however, thats great. Just a couple questions; #1 do you accept or reject the Trinity then? If you do then you must reject the divinity of Christ. If you reject that then in what meaningful sense can you affirm the atonement? What made Jesus any greater than a prophet? #2 by tangible do you mean material? If so then you do reject the immateriality of God.

This also presents a major problem with Mormonism, its almost too flexible, because it has modern prophets and apostles who can receive revelation from God and its a non-creedal church, its difficult to nail down what Mormonism really is, which also calls into question whether it really is Christian. Perhaps you could argue that some forms of it are. If Mormons only accepted the Book of Mormon to be inspired and Joseph Smith a prophet/translator of said BoM then I would see no reason to not consider them Christian, assuming they also accepted monotheism and some form of the Trinity.

[Shanna]

Benjamin wrote: "Shanna wrote: "Benjamin wrote: "Shanna, that definition seems far too broad, it makes the definition of Christianity meaningless, anyone could define what it means for Jesus Christ to be their savi..."

The catagory is Christianity and Mormons accept christ as savior therefore meeting the defining doctrine of christianity thus they are a christian sect... like I keep saying all the rest is brand, flavour, sectarianism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...
What constitutes the christian world view?

[Benjamin]

Yes I’m familiar with those facts. But, if you dig deeper, you find that within the vast majority of denominations there is a common core of teachings. The Greek Orthodox are Catholic in almost every way. They have a very similar liturgy, a similar view of the church, a very similar view of God, they affirm the deity of Christ, the Trinity, they agree that only the Bible is inspired of God. Where they disagree is centralized in two major things, the authority of the Pope, and the Filioque controversy. Similarly Protestants agree with the majority of Catholic doctrines, though less so than the Greek Orthodox. The central disagreement between Protestants and Catholics is that of the authority of the church. Other than this, Protestants agree on the basic teachings of Christianity, that Jesus was God, that He died for the sins of all mankind and was risen on the 3rd day. That Jesus is but one person in a divine Trinity that is still 1 God, that the Bible is a record of this God’s interaction with a sinful humanity and that there will be a final judgement of non-believers and resurrection for those who are saved.

So what about the issue with the Greek Orthodox Church claiming exlusivity. Well, normally that would constitute the dilemma of a church either solely being Christian or not being Christian at all. But, because The GO accept all of the definitive ideas, concepts and doctrines of Christianity, it seems to me they can be classified as Christians. Many more recent restorationist groups, such as the LDS church, do not accept these basic doctrines, or redefine them to the point where they are unrecognizable. One example is how many Mormons have redefined the concept of Omnipotence. Mormons view omnipotence as only being capable of doing anything within an eternal set of physical laws which bind all matter and energy within and outside of the universe. This seems hardly recognizable to the view of God in Christian tradition.

Craig Blomberg gives three possible ways Mormonism could be considered Christian. There is historic Christianity, which is defined as the three basic Christian traditions of Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Protestant. Mormonism doesn’t fall into any of these categories. Joseph Smith himself believed that all these traditions were greatly mistaken as to what Christianity was. There is also restored Christianity, which is what Mormonism claims to be it seems where the original Christians were very different in their beliefs than the 3 different traditions described above. The difficulty here is we just have no evidence of any radical departure or change from original Christianity. A third way is to define Mormonism as a 4th branch of Christianity. The problem here is that no Mormon, to my knowledge, has ever claimed this. Additionally, as Blomberg notes, most of what Mormons do claim would be best identified as a new religion altogether. Perhaps we could redefine Christianity as simply the adherence to the idea that one is saved by Jesus Christ. But who defines what that means? Again, the problem with such a definition is that it reduces Christianity to a redundancy. As such, it wouldn’t be saying much to call Mormons Christian, as so many different world-views could fit such a definition of Christianity.

[BJ]

Benjamin wrote: "I’m talking about traditional Mormonism. There is no question that Joseph Smith was, Brigham Young, among the other founders of the LDS church. affirmed a form of polytheism (perhaps Henotheism if ..."

No, God is a real being. Heavenly Father has a body of flesh and bone.

As well, we do reject trinity, we believe that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three gods. They are three different beings, but they ACT as one. We communicate with Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ and get promptings through the Holy Ghost.

[Benjamin]

BJ wrote: "Benjamin wrote: "I’m talking about traditional Mormonism. There is no question that Joseph Smith was, Brigham Young, among the other founders of the LDS church. affirmed a form of polytheism (perha..."

Right, so if you don’t think that Jesus or the Holy Ghost are divine what meaning does the atonement have in your view? Was Jesus’ death merely a good example, or perhaps you view Christ as merely being the first one to move from manhood to godhood assuming you affirm theosis?

Also you seem to be equating real with material, why must something be material in order for it to be real?

[Shanna]

Benjamin Wrote: "Perhaps we could redefine Christianity as simply the adherence to the idea that one is saved by Jesus Christ. But who defines what that means? Again, the problem with such a definition is that it reduces Christianity to a redundancy. As such, it wouldn’t be saying much to call Mormons Christian, as so many different world-views could fit such a definition of Christianity. "

Why does it reduce it to a redundancy? "Jesus'" word that "no one comes to the father but by me" has been the driving doctrine of christianity. All else is extraneous. As any "good" christian will tell you that unless you accept Jesus as your personal savior, it doesn't matter how "good"(by "christian" standards) or "evilly" you live your life you are not a christian and destined for the fire. And by the same token even if you live a evil life but have accepted christ as savior then you are christian...

[Benjamin]

Well, for one thing, it would be unclear to me what such a simplistic definition would prevent a Muslim from being a Christian? If all Christianity is is accepting Jesus as your savior, and it doesn’t include devoting your life to Him as Lord of your life and recognizing Him as God, then I fail to see why anyone couldn’t simply pray a prayer one night, then go on with their lives the next day claiming they are a Christian, even though none of their beliefs have really changed.

"And by the same token even if you live a evil life but have accepted christ as savior then you are christian.”

Few, if any Christians would agree with that. If you really believed that Jesus died for your sins and that the Bible is His word, its difficult to imagine how you could continue living the same way without making any changes. Could someone be considered an atheist if they continued going to church and sincerely singing praises and praying to a God they don’t believe in?

[Benjamin]

In addition to that, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and the vast majority of Protestant churches concur that becoming a Christian requires a devotion to Christ as Lord of your life and a commitment to live your life according to His teachings. Perhaps you could say that a person could still live an “evil” life in the sense of still being addicted to drugs after becoming a Christian. The difference should be that such a person would at least take steps to get off drugs. This is not to say that Christians are defined solely by how they behave. A Christian life is a necessary but not sufficient condition of what makes a Christian. It is also, of course, an intellectual assent to Christian doctrines.

[Arlo]

Benjamin, I would agree:

"The defining tenet of christianity is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your savior, Mormons as, I understand it, do so. All else is "I like chocolate and not vanilla" one man's heresy is another's truth, which why there are so many versions. It's all a load of unprovable bunk anyway. ..."

The point I was trying to make is that the tenet that Jesus is a savior was not his teaching, but was created much later by the early church. Because Mormonism partakes of this error, it can legitimately be thought of as "Christian", though it's unfortunate because it's not authentic.

[Benjamin]

2 questions; 1, to what are you responding too? I never said that, I believe you are referring to a statement made by Shanna.

2, where are you getting this idea that Jesus never claimed to be a savior? The only way you could claim that is if you say that what the gospels say Jesus said are in serious error, or the authors of the New Testament themselves misinterpreted Jesus’ statements. Both of those seem to be highly unlikely. Perhaps you could argue that we are just misinterpreting the gospels to a massive degree, but that option seems even more incredible than the last two. So what is your claim and what is your evidence?

[BJ]

Benjamin, I have a question: Are you for or against The Book of Mormon?

[Isaiah]

Michael wrote: "The short answer - No, Mormons are not Christians. They believe that Jesus Christ was a man, only a man. They also believe that we can become a god- which we cannot. They believe that Joseph Smith ..."

First, Mormons do not believe that Christ was only a man. They believe that Christ was immortal, and that He was perfect. Second, it makes complete sense that we can become as God is. Think about it. Why would God, a perfect being, create His children with less potential than Himself? We cannot become as God is in this life, but we do have the ultimate potential to. The perfect father would desire for His children to become perfect like him, and God is the perfect Father.

[BJ]

Isaiah wrote: "First, Mormons do not believe that Christ was only a man . . ."

Excellent point!!!!!

PS nice profile picture:)

[Benjamin]

BJ, I’m not sure what you mean by for or against. If you mean whether or not I believe the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired I would have to say no. But I do agree with many of the doctrines it teaches, monotheism, the trinity, the divinity of Christ etc. At least, it seems to me to teach these things. Mormons interpret it differently.

Isaiah, it depends on what attributes you believe God has. I believe God is omnipotent, meaning He can do anything that is logically possible, omniscient, meaning He knows everything, metaphysically necessary, meaning He cannot fail to exist and to suggest otherwise is logically incoherent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, eternal in the past etc...

I’m not certain that attributes can be communicated to mankind. For instance, its not possible that we can become necessarily existent, nor can we be made to not have a beginning, nore can we be made to be omnipotent. We can’t be necessarily existent because to suggest that would entail that at one point something can fail to exist in some possible world, and at another point it is impossible for something to fail to exist in a possible world. This would entail a logical contradiction. Something that was logically coherent at one point cannot simply become incoherent at another, this would imply that truth is relative, making the very claim meaningless. Similar absurdities exist when it comes to making man omnipotent. If our will conflicted with God’s, the result would be an immovable object being impacted by an unstoppable force. Such an event cannot occur, which would mean our wills would logically have to be in line with God’s at all times. This makes it difficult to see how we would have omnipotence in any meaningful sense. Lastly we cannot become eternal, something cannot have a beginning at one point, and not have a beginning at another, that again would lead to absurdity. For these and other reasons I seriously doubt that men can become God’s in any meaningful sense. At most it seems we could become ethically perfect, immensely powerful and incredibly intelligent.

Given this, if you want to affirm your version of theosis you must deny many of the attributes of God, which is precisely what Mormons have traditionally done. But I also find issue with your claim that it only makes sense that God would want to create creatures with the same potential as Him. Why must this be the case? Surely God created us to be perfect, but that doesn’t entail that we become exactly like God. A perfect square is different from a perfect circle. They both entail the fulfillment of their true potential, but that potential is not the same. Similarly, could not God create us with a different potential than Himself and still consider us potentially perfect?

[Jirka]

The attributes of God are a tough nutshell to crack and it led me towards losing the faith last year. From a certain perspective assigning the adjectives ethically perfect, omnipotent, omniscient and loving and merciful lead to serious questions, for example:
How can God be loving when God doesn't have a brain? Research shows, that without brain nobody can experience emotion and love is a very strong emotion.
If you read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins then you get what I mean. Mormons get around this by teaching that God the Father has a body of flesh and bone but that leads to other logical issues. Strong arguments exist that it is logically impossible to be ethically perfect, omnipotent, omniscient and loving at the same time and that the existence of any kind of God is logically impossible.

For the 7 billion people on this planet and all computer programs Google included the knowledge is immense but still even such things as how fast the present global warming remain fuzzy. Same with the "butterfly effect" where a butterfly waving its wings could be the hidden tipping-point factor that decides if a hurricane is or is not formed. Neither does anybody know for sure if the global warming would eventually lead to a more rainy or more dry sub-saharan Africa. People have improving face-recognition and surveillance technologies, even to the extent of finding the neural networks responsible for pondering about God in the human brain. Yet it remains an open question if mankind will ever be able to invent technology that detects all the thoughts, and the hidden emotions of every human being on the planet.

How a stark contrast to the bold claim: "Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."

P.S.
It was Saturday night last week that an unbelievable event occurred to me. Could it have been a halucination? I'm not sure 100%. I find hard to find words to describe it. It was like after living for months in a deep dark pit, suddenly for a few minutes seeing with exceptional clarity that the words "I Am" heard from the burning bush and the verses "Who sees me, sees the Father" and "nothing is hidden from God's sight". are not a man-made lie. But I admit I'd get into deep trouble trying to argue about this deeply personal experience logically with any other human at this stage....