Goodreads Sci-Fi/Fantasy Authors discussion
Prevailing themes in fantasy fiction
date
newest »
newest »
You didn't mention the most overused theme of all, The Quest. The most famous of these is of course The Lord of the Rings. Some other themes are a Time Travel or Space Traveler or Dimension Traveler from our era and world to a fantasy world. Another is the Mysterious Object theme, where a wizard or someone has to figure out what the object and what it does.
Yes, Joe...the ubiquitous quest theme is always there...and could well be a metaphor for all human existence...it is probably the very concept of the quest that allows a fantasy series to successfully span ten thousand printed pages and keep the reader interested...If one was to expunge the quest concept from fantasy...I'm not sure what would remain...great addition, Joe.
This might another theme like The Quest = the Young Person Growing UpI do rather weird themes for writing fantasy (albeit modern) and sci-fi but alas, I'm not published so it doesn't really count...
But everybody likes 'Road-trip' movies don't they?
A big one I've seen with some SF authors that have me on the edge of my seat is usually combining a quest with a hunt. Something goes wrong and the protagonist ends up being the prey, and the rest of the novel sees them going from one untenable situation to the other, often with readers wondering how the hell they'll make it.
Nerine wrote: "A big one I've seen with some SF authors that have me on the edge of my seat is usually combining a quest with a hunt. Something goes wrong and the protagonist ends up being the prey, and the rest ..."The problem with that theme is to 'stop in time'. I can't remember the blog that discussed it, but it really opened my eyes because there are a lot of authors that keep adding worse and worse event for so long, the reader become kind of desensitized.
Shirley wrote: "But everybody likes 'Road-trip' movies don't they?"Wow! You just described my YA novel. Demon/dragons chasing a set of teens who are prophesied to destroy them. All along the way monsters attack, nature attacks, they fight each other, fall in love and fight the dragons. Would this interest you, you think?
Marc wrote: "The ultimate road trip novel is probably Roger Zelazny's Roadmarks."Actually, I quite enjoyed his "Damnation Alley", which I read shortly after reading Hunter S Thompson's "Hell's Angels".
That too, but it's post-apocalyptic as well. I got a bit turned off by the giant spider, you'd think a writer like Zelazny would know better.
There are many series that consider the role of religions in a society...the good, the bad, the control they impose on a culture and how they shape history, etc. Some authors even take the opportunity to question the entire notion of faith by framing their objections to religion in the setting of a fantasy world.Some series I can think of right off the top of my head: Bakker's "Prince of Nothing", Scholes's "Psalm of Isaak", ... it's been a while, was this a theme in Friedman's "Coldfire Trilogy"? I think it was.
The great, and sadly, late, Poul Anderson often seemed to write two sorts of sf books: wry action-adventure (a la Ensign Flandry), and books about the encounter between a high-tech society and a lower-tech, often eldritch one, almost always to the detriment of the latter.This last is a major sf theme based on plenty of historical examples: Columbus, Cortez, Hawaii, etc.
Mark Twain's "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" is a pre-sf fictional example of a writer exploring this theme.
There are many series that consider the role of religions in a society.Many of the books I've read that have any explicit religion in them almost always portray it in an Inquisitorial mode. The magicians are usually getting the short end of the stick, which makes me wonder, since magicians can do obvious things and priests cannot. Wouldn't the powers that be in the society want to have the most powerful ones working for them? Or do they want the prestige (social power) to go to the ones without any other real power?
One of my favorite authors is C. Dale Brittain, who manages to write priests who are likeable and even friendly, especially to the wizards. One of the odd lapses in McCaffrey's Pern books is the absence of a priestly class, their roles taken over by the Harpers.
Doc wrote: "books about the encounter between a high-tech society and a lower-tech, often eldritch one, almost always to the detriment of the latter."Try Dave Duncan's Seventh Sword trilogy, for a great story of high-tech meeting low without massive disruption.
The Reluctant Swordsman
The Coming of Wisdom
Destiny of the Sword
Marc wrote: "There are many series that consider the role of religions in a society.Many of the books I've read that have any explicit religion in them almost always portray it in an Inquisitorial mode. ...Wouldn't the powers that be in the society want to have the most powerful ones working for them? Or do they want the prestige (social power) to go to the ones without any other real power?"
In some way this is probably a mirroring of our history. While I will grant that on the surface magic and science are opposites, it is also possible to view them as having similar roles in fantasy and our world respectively. In both cases, magicians and scientists are some of the most educated people in the society who have talents that allow them to achieve incredible feats that the average person cannot repeat or really understand, and it is natural for some of these people to fear what they don't understand (many examples in fiction, consider the super collider in Europe for an example in science). We have countless examples of how organized religion has tried to limit the influence and spread of science in our history as opposed to embracing them, so I think this history is getting filtered in to the fantasy worlds authors create.
Your comment that the religious leaders should embrace the wizards so that they have the allegiance of the most powerful people in the world is interesting. I thought about it for some time. I think the reason that this is not usually the way the societies are created is based on the central idea of a religion. In most cases, religions teach that the god(s) who are worshipped are the highest powers and the beings from whom blessings and favor flow. In some cases humbleness before such god(s) is a requirement of worship. But wizards are god-like themselves and are a direct threat to this view. Embracing a wizard would probably inherently weaken this central message and threaten the very teachings of the religion.
Just my thoughts. Cheers :-)
Alan wrote: "Your comment that the religious leaders should embrace the wizards so that they have the allegiance of the most powerful people in the world is interesting..."My thought was really the political and economic powers. I can readily see priests despising wizards as a competitor, but why would kings side with priests over wizards? From their POV, the wizards cast a spell and something happens. Priests pray and nothing happens that is a direct result of the prayer. Who would you side with?
There is a great deal to be said about your other points but far too much for a quick and hastily-penned reply.
Marc wrote: "Alan wrote: "Your comment that the religious leaders should embrace the wizards so that they have the allegiance of the most powerful people in the world is interesting..."My thought was really..."
True, true. My guess is it has more to do with which faction does more to support the power and control of the ruler than who can use their talents for more immediate concerns. In many instances, it is the religious authorities that legimitize the right of a ruler to be in power and that have direct access to the hearts and minds of the people. Without the support of the organized religion, a ruler could have a hard time maintaining the support of the masses.
Disclaimer: For all those who read my comments, please know that I am making (on my part) dispassionate observations. It is not my intent to begin any kind of debate on religion in our world. :-)
The inclusion of religion as a critical element in the development of quality fantasy is certainly valid. The elaborate weaving of complex religious structures, along with the host of dieties who inspire those structures, is one of the aspects that make fantasy such a compelling genre to read and create. As an author, one of the things that inspired my transition from horror to fantasy fiction was the writer's volition to create religion to match his or her own perception of the insitution as being either a benefit or a scourge...so no one should be in any way offended by alan's comments on religion...the fantasy world is the one realm where it is unequivocally okay to be a heretic and take up the discordant view...Pullman's Dark Material series is one of the most flagrantly anti-religious set of books I've ever read and I happen to believe it is one of the most brilliant work's of children's fiction ever writen. The beauty of fantasy can be found in the freedom to craft and create worlds and their conventions as you see fit.
In some ancient societies, priests were magicians and in others, in fact one modern one, Iran, the priests were the rulers. Throughout history, the roles that each of these factions played in society changed. In the Medieval period, the Christian church persecuted wizards and witches primarily because most of them were pagans, not because they were any real threat.
The Dryni books of Katherine Kurtz are good examples of a melding of religion and wizardry.This discussion also makes me think of the Arthur legend: Merlin, usually Druidic, is involved with the center of power in the realm, yet the knights seek the Holy Grail.
But another example of the Church waging a war against the magicians. Although it was part of a general backlash against the Deryni. Only in the Kelson books, with some Deryni in the Church, do they start working together.
Gene Wolfe's *Long Sun* series combines religion and fantasy with great subtlety. And of course, there's JRRT and CS Lewis. I find that some authors over-simplify the medieval / Renaissance settings, and at the same time, mix up the "witchhunt" scenario, which was much more prominent in the 16th and 17th centuries rather than in the medieval period. Umberto Ecco is someone who can do things right---though not a fantasist.
I write fantasy myself, and I have priests and such, but they have an advantage in that the gods they're priests for actually do things in the world. I haven't yet addressed the issue of their reaction to extensive magic use since most people don't don't like or use magic in this part of the world. One of my hero's jobs is to change that.
I write fantasy too but - controversially? - I chose not to include magic.
The chosen one & The seventh son of the seventh son!
I prefer to read fantasy that only obliquely deals with magic, if at all. Very much enjoy most of Guy Gavriel Kay's work, especially Tigana. Some of Charles de Lint, although sometimes I feel he doesn't commit to the story and consequently there is sometimes a shallowness to his characters. One of my favourites, however, is The Little Country. Love C.J. Cherryh's The Morgaine Saga.I write fantasy. My first novel Shadow Song is an historical fantasy based on a true tragedy that occurred in the 1830s in the village of Hornings Mills, Ontario. It very much deals with Ojibwa culture.
My short story collection, And the Angels Sang does have a few fantasy stories, some which are farce, some high fantasy, others urban fantasy, although the majority are speculative fiction.
My latest novel, From Mountains of Ice is a cultural fantasy based on the Italian Renaissance, and very much explores death and mourning rituals.
In all of these I tend to explore alienation, isolation, and the down-trodden and dispossesed.
Excellent Lorina...the concept of oppression is indeed a central theme in most works of fantasy fiction...the constant dark shadow in the form of the ruthless tyrant who is unrelenting in his or her subjugation of the people. From the writer's perspective this one theme, above all others, presents the greatest challenge to the thoughtful wnovelist. Most examples of this theme tend toward the extreme, but if the oppression leans toward the subtle and insidious...then the art becomes compelling...the great tiger trap (into which kay falls so deeply in his truly loathesome novel, Tigana) comes in the novelist's response to that tyranny...so often, the artless writer will allow his supposed protagnonists to fall to wretched behavior all in the name of combating the tyrant...come novel's end, I often have difficulty distinguishing between the hero and the villian. This is a great theme addition and one that certainly deserves serious contemplation as it speaks to the best...and the worst that the genre can offer.
And in this I feel it necessary to be subtle. Far more interesting the very human, the very complex villain who is capable of great kindness and great cruelty. And far more interesting the reluctant hero who is just an ordinary person dealing with extraordinary circumstances.
This has been an excellent discussion and has yeilded some rather interesting perspectives that help define the nature of the genre...to summarize, here are some of the dominant themes/concepts that shape fantasy fiction:1. glorification of war and war-driven cultures
2. struggle against oppression and tyranny.
3. the epic quest and the coming of age while upon such a quest.
4. the integration of systems of magic, culture and religion
5. conflict between cultures who are at different stages of their development and evolution.
There are probably several other themes that could have been included here, but these are certainly some of the tools and traits that make fantasy what it is.
By some of the above definitions, Toffler's 'Future Shock' might be considered a work of fantasy.Well...
I think a lot of traditional fantasy deals directly with the concepts of good and evil. Usually the "good guys" and the "bad guys" are clearly defined. Whereas in urban fantasy the boundries between good and evil tend to be more clouded. I think another element of fantasy is the path of redemption. The fallen prince that returns to save his people and restore his honor. The hero that failed to save his first love and finally avenges her.
Goodreads Sci-Fi/Fantasy Authors
Books mentioned in this topic
Dead Until Dark (other topics)Living Dead in Dallas (other topics)
Club Dead (other topics)
Dead to the World (other topics)
Dead as a Doornail (other topics)
More...
After spending a bit of time itemizing and discussing some of the essential elements of epic high fantasy, it might be interesting to consider some of the predominant themes that provide the foundation for the genre...It would be an interesting exercise to serve up a theme and list one or two works that might epitomize that theme...I'l start with two from a pair of my favorite authors
Theme 1. the glory of war (dubious or otherwise) and the clash of empires - Steven Erikson's Malazan books of the fallen
Theme 2. The struggle of an oppressed people to free their country from tyranny -
Guy Kay - Tigana.
These are two examples and they are rather shop worn (at least, to my mind)...so I'd love to hear about works that offer more innovative themes.