Something A Character Did or Said That You Didn't Like (Spoiler Warning)

[Davina]

Bekah wrote: "sorry, lol, this is my job, so I have to turn it around.. Why do you suppose female on male violence is portrayed as funny and fluffy and laughable? What's the message there?"

I'm amazed that you claim this is your job, but you have to ask this question. Do you watch the news? Read the newspaper? Watch TV shows, movies, and commercials?

They all have a tendency to trivialise f-on-m violence while hanging a man out to dry if he so much as look at a woman the wrong way.

Have you heard about the female sentencing discount when it comes violence perpetuated against males?

Have you heard about a woman called Clara Harris? Or Mary Winkler? Google them. I'm sure if these murderers were men they wouldn't be appearing on Oprah or have their own private fan club fighting for their freedom.

Just recently I read about a story where 3 women kidnapped a man, held him hostage in a motel room and super glued his penis to his belly. When the case went to court the judge admitted if they were men they wouldn't be walking away with just community service as punishment. They'd be in jail where they belong.

And why did the judge rule this way? Apparently because he or she was under the impression that the victim deserved this sort of treatment because he's a cheater and womanizer. But guess what? He was cheating with the mastermind of this twisted little plan who also happpened to be married. But, of course, only the man is held to any sort of moral responsibility.

Go figure.

[Davina]

Arch wrote: "In a lot of interracial books, a lot of the white heroes have never been with a black woman. So, the writer gets in his head and let the readers see what he sees.

John Doe probably is use to bei..."

White men date full, bodacious women from their own race too.

I'm not saying the hero can't appreciate his heroine in everyway.

All I'm saying is that the constant focus on what the author perceives makes her "black" as opposed to white is overdone, if not all together unnecessary.

[Bekah, Mod]

Davina wrote: "Bekah wrote: "sorry, lol, this is my job, so I have to turn it around.. Why do you suppose female on male violence is portrayed as funny and fluffy and laughable? What's the message there?"

I'm ..."

It sounds as if you have some personal experience in this topic. I wasn't seeking general answers to my questions, but seeking YOUR take on the questions. What and why do you think the message is as it is, or, from your example, why the female sentencing discount exists. Since training on this subject is my job, I often turn it around to draw out where a person is coming from. Its better for me, to meet someone where they are, and then work from there in a training. So that I could figure out why YOU think woman on male violence is portrayed the way it is and to see what factors YOU are taking into consideration, what context YOU see things, and where your opinion lies. That was the basis of my questions,(I actually do watch the news, read newspapers, and watch tv occasionally - I have the answers to those questions for myself) just to see more clearly what you take into consideration on this subject. I think I see more clearly now that we just look at it from different perspectives.

[Arch , Mod]

Davina wrote: "White men date full, bodacious women from their own race too.

I'm not saying the hero can't appreciate his heroine in everyway.

All I'm saying is that the constant focus on what the author perceives makes her "black" as opposed to white is overdone, if not all together unnecessary."

It's true that a lot of white men dates full, bodacious women from their race as well.

But, a lot of white men in the interracial books probably have never dated a full bodacious white woman and it's their first time with a black woman. So that's why everything is new to him.

I would hope that all interracial writers would know that what you can find on a black woman, you can find on women from different races.

Now this goes for non-interracial books as well. Not every book the heroine's race is disclosed right off the bat. Sometimes, it leaves you guessing as to what race they are.

The author might described the heroine as having brown hair, green eyes, small waist, petite body,a tight butt, round face and long legs that never seem to end.

Guess what, that's their description of a white woman.

It wouldn't surprise me, if the butt is described as being small and tight. To my knowledge, I have never read a book about a white heroine that had a big tight butt.

I'm not trying to start a fire, but I have to say this.

We don't see black women on those plastic surgery shows, getting lip ejections or even butt ejections. We might see one or two going to get breast implants.

Just because we don't see them on TV getting those things, does it means that black women don't get those type of plastic surgery? The answer is no.

But, a lot of black women already have full lips, big butts and no, I am not talking about firming up your butt with exercise. If I am not mistaken, a man named Biz Marzke (sp?) made a song about big butts and the women in his video has big butts. That's the kind of butts I am talking about a lot of black women have.

A lot of black women already have big breasts.

I have read articles where they say that Kim Kardashian had plastic surgery on her butt to make it look bigger. I'm not going to say yes and I am not going to say no, but I do know that I have seen younger pictures of Kim and she didn't seem to have a big butt back then. Even her breasts didn't look like they look now. Some reports states that she wears a butt pad.

Black authors aren't the only authors that write interracial stories. A black author can base her heroine's look after herself or someone she knows.

Have you noticed how Suzanne described Alyssa?

Alyssa is black, white and latino. If I was to guess, I would say that since her mother was black, the latino portion comes from her mother side, because her father is white.

Anyway, Suzanne describes Alyssa as being beautiful. She has green eyes, she's tall and skinny. She has small breasts.

Now, I have to say this. From the latino side. Salma Hayek is a latino woman and she has big breasts and a butt. Now, many black women have the same thing. Why is Alyssa tall and skinny with small breast. Even Sam thought she was too skinny.

Suzanne is a white woman and she wanted Alyssa to appear more white.

Alyssa is like an inch taller than Halle and they are both biracial. Halle has big breasts and a butt.

Alyssa is described as looking like Vanessa Williams. She has big breasts and a butt. Not a big butt,but a butt none the least.

In my opinion, Alyssa needed a little more meat on her bones. If Sam thought she was too skinny, then something is wrong.

In Killer Dreams the hero thought the heroine wore a size 6 and she told him she wore a size 8. He still thought that was thin.

[Danielle The Book Huntress , Sees Love in All Colors]

You know what's interesting, is that I have a friend who is White (She is Swedish, and Russian/Jewish ancestry), and she has a bigger butt and bigger lips than I do, and I am African American (African, Native American, Scots/Irish/English ancestry). Having a big butt and big lips doesn't necessary connotate a particular ethnicity. For an author to use those characteristics to denote ethnicity is probably a bit lazy on their part. JMO.

[Arch , Mod]

I will never say that big lips, big butts or big breasts is just a black woman thing, because that's false.

I would never say that a non-black woman is trying to be black,because they have those features or get those features. Just as I would never say that a non-black person is trying to be black, because they can blow. Because, blacks aren't the only race of people that can sing.

I could be wrong, but I don't think every black author that writes interracial books are trying to make it seem as if only black women look like this.

For the ones that are doing this. They need a reality check.

I haven't read a lot of interracial books. Only the few I was able to check out from my library or found at a book sale.

So, if anyone knows of a non-erotic interracial book, where the author is describing the heroine as to say this is how a black woman looks. Please direct me to that book and when I get a chance and if I can get the book, I will check out the description for myself.

[Bekah, Mod]

Arch wrote: "Davina wrote: "White men date full, bodacious women from their own race too.

I'm not saying the hero can't appreciate his heroine in everyway.

All I'm saying is that the constant focus on w..."

Arch, it was Sir Mix-A-Lot - a one hit wonder about big butts that it seems will NEVER die. :-)

[Arch , Mod]

Thanks for the name Bekah. I don't listen to his music, but I know who he is. He made a commerical McDonald's commerical if I am not mistaken, about big butts.

[Yolonda]

Oh lord, Arch. Stay away from rap references. LOL

[Arch , Mod]

Loni, I was only trying to show what kind of butts I was talking about.

I don't even listen to rap. I just knew that there was a song about big butts.

[Yolonda]

I know. Just tweeking you.

[Arch , Mod]

Some men have big butts. Will Smith has a big butt. I haven't read about a hero that has a big butt like him.

[Danielle The Book Huntress , Sees Love in All Colors]

I like a man with a generous posterior (of any race). LOL.

[Arch , Mod]

Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "I like a man with a generous posterior (of any race). LOL."

I am not a fan of Will Smith, but I have thought he had a big butt.

I've also always thought that Vincent on Wiseguy and Doug from 21 Jump Street had a big butt too.

[Davina]

Bekah wrote: "Bekah wrote: "It sounds as if you have some personal experience in this topic. I wasn't seeking general answers to my questions, but seeking YOUR take on the questions. What and why do you think the message is as it is, or, from your example, why the female sentencing discount exists. Since training on this subject is my job, I often turn it around to draw out where a person is coming from. Its better for me, to meet someone where they are, and then work from there in a training. So that I could figure out why YOU think woman on male violence is portrayed the way it is and to see what factors YOU are taking into consideration, what context YOU see things, and where your opinion lies. That was the basis of my questions,(I actually do watch the news, read newspapers, and watch tv occasionally - I have the answers to those questions for myself) just to see more clearly what you take into consideration on this subject. I think I see more clearly now that we just look at it from different perspectives."


Bekah, I think I've made my position fairly clear based on my posts above.

While you have not been specific about what sort of "training" you provide, I believe I'm familiar with what it is that you do from what you've said, or chosen not to say, in your posts.

I've asked you to clarify your position and you haven't so I have to go on what you've written and the way you're coming across to me is that you think female on male violence is somehow more acceptable than male on female.

You're free to correct me if I'm wrong at any time.

I also know a lot of the "training" about violence and DV that is carried out in this country is very biased and portrays men as the only perpetrators of violence, systematic and otherwise. However, irrespective of this, there are many people who know this is not true. Women resort to violence just as much as men in many, and sometimes, even more cases. Where women lack the physical strength to tackle a man, they use the element of surprise. If you've read research on how many women murder their male victims its always when they least expect it. For what do you know, women aren't nitwits who will try to attack a man twice their size. This coupled with the use of weapons easily creates a more level playing field on which women are able to carry out their crimes.

More people are also becoming aware that the Man=violent perpetrator, Woman=helpless victim is nothing but a blatant lie because not only are women given license to perpetrate violence, more or less with impunity in many cases, because of an antiqued system of dealing with intimate partner violence, their actions are also often justified in the media as well (really how many men who've murdered their wives were welcomed on Oprah to much fanfare and sympathy?). Even in non-self defense cases, the male victim is blamed for violent acts perpetrated against him while this practice (that of blaming the victim) is highly frowned upon when the sexes are reversed.

So while I mean no disrespect to you and what you know, I know that what *I* know is valid and based upon solid academic, scientic, personal and other evidence. I know that our justice system is largely a profit making scheme that target certain members of society just for the mere fact that they're male and thus inherently evil. I know that in many ways men are not given equal protection under the law when it comes to many things and the violence issue is just one of them.

I know that when a man perpetrates a violent act against woman I can trust the system to prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law more times than not, but when a woman commits the same or similar crime under the same or similar circumstances there's a strong likelihood she'll walk away with a minimal sentence even where she herself was not a victim.

Listen, gender politics (which by and large is all about women) is of little or no interest to me exactly because it is that, all about women. I don't take women at their word just because they have a vagina and I have a vagina. I've seen far too many cases in which this trust has been hideously betrayed and innocent people are left to deal with dirty consequences. I believe in justice for everyone, man and woman alike, because at the end of the day I'm human first before I'm a woman.

You wanted to know my position. That's it. What is yours?

[Davina]

I like a guy with a nice, plump butt, but not when its too big. Big butts on man (regardless of his race) just look weird to me. I've never noticed that Will Smith has a big butt. I'll have to check him out when next I see one of his films!

[Arch , Mod]

Women can be as harmful as a man can be, rather she's fighting a man head on (Yes, they have women that would fight a man like a man) or if she's sneaking up on him.

If a woman can walk in dangerous shoes, she should not be looked upon as being a victim.

If a woman takes a man to a hotel and glue his private part to his abdomen, because he cheated, then her butt needs to put in jail, because if a man took a woman to a hotel and glued her private part togehter, because she cheated, he would be facing life in jail (Figure of speech).

The system wants to be for a woman then, but let a woman get rape. The system is against her. That's why she is grilled hard in a courtroom. That's why she is asked what was she wearing, etc.

The only difference between a man and a woman, is their chest area and what's between their thighs.

If a man was more stronger than a woman, then a wouldn't be able to get beat down from a woman in a fist fight.

[Arch , Mod]

Davina wrote: "I like a guy with a nice, plump butt, but not when its too big. Big butts on man (regardless of his race) just look weird to me. I've never noticed that Will Smith has a big butt. I'll have to chec..."

I don't like big, big butts.

[Davina]

Arch wrote: "The system wants to be for a woman then, but let a woman get rape. The system is against her. That's why she is grilled hard in a courtroom. That's why she is asked what was she wearing, etc."

I strongly disagree with this.

Indeed quite the opposite is true. A man can go to prison based on the false testimony (basically just her word) of a woman with whom he has had sex and she later regrets it.

This has happened so many times, I'm shocked every time I hear about it because I can't imagine someone being so vindictive and selfish. I get angry for the real victims of rape who are hurt by such wickedness and for the innocent men whose lives are ruined.

Moreover, by law, proscecutors are not allowed to "grill" the woman or ask her what she was wearing on the night the rape allegedly occurred. In fact, many times she isn't even called to the witness stand. Jody Foxx (is that her name?) as you see her in The Accused may be the fictional poster child of rape victims in the 70s and 80s, but in this day and age such cross examination methods have completely been outlawed.

[Davina]

The system is far more skewed to favour women than men.

And many people will argue that it is because women in prior generations really had it tough when it came to violence and rape etc.

I agree with that, but society today has largely evolved from how things were in the past, 30, 40, 50 years ago. The system is therefore antiqued and needs to be reformed to accommodate all the citizens it seeks to protect.

The empowerment of women is not just restricted to self-actualisation and conquering the corporate world. It also means women feel empowered to do a lot of the bad things only men in past generations usually do.

The United States is perhaps the only western country (I know of) that allow women who lie about serious crimes such as rape to walk scot free. It's pathetic. As long as there's proof, they should be jailed.

[Arch , Mod]

Yes, a lot of men have gone to jail, behind a woman saying that he had raped her, after having sex with him.

A test should be done prior to court to really see if the woman has been raped.

Rape should always been looked upon as a serious charge.

Just like a lot of men are sent to jail behind a false rape. Many men are let go for a real rape. That's why a lot of rape victims don't come out and state that they have been raped.

Many times the rape victims are seen as the criminal.

[Davina]

Arch wrote: "Just like a lot of men are sent to jail behind a false rape. Many men are let go for a real rape. That's why a lot of rape victims don't come out and state that they have been raped.

Many times the rape victims are seen as the criminal."

The rape issue is a sensitive one and as such I want to be careful with what I say.

That being said, I think rapes will not be reported anyway even if they didn't jail the liars. This country is a case in point. Many who lie about rape, walk and yet the statistic that is often promoted is that the vast majority of rapes aren't reported.

Real rape victims are treated as victims more times than not. Not as criminals.

There are many interest groups who spread lies and inflate the numbers of rape that occur in society to push their own agenda. Even when the woman herself doesn't consider the intercourse she has had as rape, they try to convince her it is such because that is what interest groups do.

I do believe that some men get away with rape, yes. My sympathies don't lie with such people. These people are criminals and I want to see them nailed just like you do.

I just don't like the thought of innocent people behind bars. I don't like that the law doesn't provide justice for those who fall victim to criminals (and that's what the liars are, just like the rapists). No one's freedom should rely solely upon the word of another individual.

It might be a tricky process proving that a rape has occurred, but it is often far easier to prove a rape has NOT occurred. It is in these cases that such individuals should be jailed. When the actions of the woman was clearly intentional and malicious.

That is all I will say on the rape issue. I'm not interested in getting into a discussion on rape, mainly due to its sensitive nature. The discussion stems from the violence as I referred to in the Loretta Chase book.

[Arch , Mod]

I agree that many people that are in jail are innocent. And I still stand on my criminal stand in regards to rape victims.

I'm done talking about this issue as well.

[Bekah, Mod]

Davina wrote: "Bekah wrote: "Bekah wrote: "It sounds as if you have some personal experience in this topic. I wasn't seeking general answers to my questions, but seeking YOUR take on the questions. What and why d..."

My experience and stand is quite different than yours, and I've found it to be better to leave these discussions out of my 'escape' world, which is what reading is for me. I can never combine the two - what I tolerate in my reading, I would never tolerate in my day to day life. So, thank you for sharing your views! I'm thankful that we live in a world where differing viewpoints and lifestyles can coexist and be appreciated. I'm going to go back to daydreaming about my fictional, 'perfect' heroes and heroines, ignore the rest and leave my 'work mind' out of it!

Happy reading to you Davina!

[Davina]

Bekah wrote: "Davina wrote: "Bekah wrote: "Bekah wrote: "It sounds as if you have some personal experience in this topic. I wasn't seeking general answers to my questions, but seeking YOUR take on the questions...."

I'm lost as to why you brought it up in the first place if that's how you felt all along. Now all of sudden its too hefty a topic to get into? Not that it will matter one iota to you and not that I'm pushing for an exchange, but forgive me if I call cop out.

But fair enough. To each his or her own. I'm okay with people feeling differently. It's not really surprising considering the society we live in.

Happy reading to you too.