Glens Falls (NY) Online Book Discussion Group discussion
ABOUT BOOKS AND READING
>
What are U reading these days? (PART SIX) (2010)



FROM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_tra... "
Below are a few more interesting excerpts from Wiki re backwards time travel:
====================================================
"Another clear early example of time travel in fiction is the short story The Clock That Went Backward by Edward Page Mitchell, which appeared in the New York Sun in 1881.
See PDF (35.7 KB) at:
http://www.horrormasters.com/Text/a22...
"Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court (1889), in which the protagonist finds himself in the time of King Arthur after a fight in which he is hit with a sledge hammer, was another early time travel story which helped bring the concept to a wide audience, and was also one of the first stories to show history being changed by the time traveler's actions.
"The first time travel story to feature time travel by means of a time machine was Enrique Gaspar y Rimbau's 1887 book El Anacronópete. This idea gained popularity with the H. G. Wells story The Time Machine, published in 1895 ... which also featured a time machine and which is often seen as an inspiration for all later science fiction stories featuring time travel, using a vehicle that allows an operator to travel purposefully and selectively. The term "time machine", coined by Wells, is now universally used to refer to such a vehicle."
FROM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_tra...
=====================================================




Wiki explains the "grandparent" issue by saying:
===================================================
"... many in the scientific community believe that backwards time travel is highly unlikely. Any theory which would allow time travel would require that problems of causality be resolved. The classic example of a problem involving causality is the "grandfather paradox": what if one were to go back in time and kill one's own grandfather before one's father was conceived?" See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_tra...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfat...
====================================================

Of course! It's the 'fiction' part that makes it all work out perfectly. Time travel is an interesting concept. I enjoy Physics and the mind-bending concepts.
I recently had to let my subscription to Discover Magazine lapse. I just can't spend the money, and to be honest, they keep dropping the things that drew me there in the first place. The first thing to disappear and really upset me was the Night Sky describing all the celestial events of the month. I do wish I could have kept it though, I'd have liked to read the article Jim mentioned.


The branching off you mentioned is called a pocket universe. 'Lost' is doing it right now.

Werner, I browsed around, reading about Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345...
Interesting premise, changing the outcome of the Civil War.
GR says:
"Harry Norman Turtledove (born...1949) is an American novelist, who has produced works in several genres including alternate history, historical fiction, fantasy and science fiction."
I've never thought about the literary possibilities of "alternate history", changing the outcomes of wars, dealing with "what-if" scenarios. Intriguing.

Jackie, what is "Lost"? Oooops! I found it! ===>
http://www.netflix.com/Search?oq=&...
Little by little, I'm becoming familiar with SF and Fantasy.
Speaking of time travel, as we've been doing, today I browsed around Netflix and found:
"Quantum Leap": Season 1 (3-Disc Series) (1989) (TV series 1989-1993)
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Quantum_...
I'm currently watching the following episode:
Episode: "The Right Hand of God".
"Quantum Leap" The Right Hand of God - October 24, 1974 (1989)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0681184/
Video: Full episode: http://www.imdb.com/video/hulu/vi2584...
The big surprise for me in this episode is that the nun (Sister Angela) is played by the daughter of some good friends of ours! Her name is Michelle Joyner. We've known her from the time she was a little kid. Michelle has a pretty big part in it. Here's her filmography:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0431662/
Photo: http://www.drquinnmd.com/images/peopl...
In 1993 she played the gal who was killed at the beginning of "Cliffhanger", which starred Sylvester Stallone.

For a long time, SF magazines & such wouldn't accept any time travel stories since they'd been done so much. It's an interesting concept & we do not have the vocabulary to discuss it well. Several authors proved that.
I liked Quantum Leap. We saw one not too long ago. It hasn't aged badly. Fun show.
Jackie, my OH and I are presently watching Lost from the beginning, we are near the end of the third season, and have the fourth on order from the library. We both love it, and have been glomming on it, sometimes watching 6 episodes at a stretch. :)

Here's the text of Heinlein's "By His Bootstraps" in PDF form online:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~pot/scifi/byhis...
And here's a page discusssing the story:
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/wo...
Also, here's a page about "All You Zombies".
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/wo...
Too bad I can't cc this to myself for future reference. Instead, I'll copy it and send it to myself by email. :) Thanks, Jim!

KM, I've got it on my Netflix queue. :)

Jim, I never read Bootstraps. I'll look at the PDF Joy gave the link to. I saved it favs, hopefully I'll get to it soon. Thanks Joy!

My dream vacation is going to England and taking the "Green Darkness Tour", which visits the sites described in the novel.

Katherine, your dream vacation sounds very interesting! So does the book! Goodreads says it's a classic in its genre:
Green Darkness by Anya Seton
It's another good book for me to keep in mind.
Goodreads says that two of Seton's books were made into Hollywood films:
"Dragonwyck" (1946):
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038492/
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Dragonwy...
"Foxfire" (1955):
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048091/

Joy, the idea of alternate worlds --with or without an association with time travel-- is a popular one in modern science fiction, since the advent of quantum theory with its idea that pivotal events create the kind of branching alluded to above. (With her scientific knowledge, Jackie's more versed in that than I am and can explain it better --the term "pocket universe" was new to me, for instance.) I haven't read anything more than a tiny fraction of the fiction on that theme --I was late in getting into it :-)-- but since I discovered them, I've found many of those scenarios really fascinating!

Many physicists believe there are alternate worlds existing right beside our own on a different dimension or plane of existence. But how could they prove it? It seems too far fetched for me, even with reading scientific journals. The idea is better in fiction because there are endless possibilities. Any event can change the course of history if played out differently. Very intriguing.

Werner, I can see why the idea of alternate worlds would extend the SF imagination infinitely. I've tried reading explanations of quantum theory, but it's all Greek to me. Without understanding the theory behind the idea, it's hard to believe in alternate worlds. However, sometimes it's hard to believe in our OWN world, strange as it is. :) So who's to say what's possible or impossible. It certainly makes good reading!

Many physicists believe there are alternate worlds existing right besi..."
Jackie, I've never watched Sliders, but I see that Netlix has it. So maybe I'll find out what it's about. The descriptions mention going "through one alternate dimension after another".
http://www.netflix.com/Search?v1=Slid...


Werner, I haven't read either of those stories, that I recall, but I've read so many over the years that they tend to blur. Time travel, as a purely speculative idea, is an interesting one & leads to some interesting thoughts.
Some, like the two Heinlein stories, seem to say that if it happened, it will. I find them amusing, but pure entertainment. I'm not much of a fan of predestination no matter what form it takes.
Bradbury's "The Sound of Thunder" was kind of horrifying. The first 'butterfly effect' (sort of) that I remember reading. Again, the effects weren't terribly realistic, but the concept was cool. A man travels back in time, steps on a butterfly & the entire world is slightly changed when he gets back.
For alternate dimensions, I think Philip José Farmer's World of Tiers books were a good example. A few people find out that we all live in pocket universes that are artificially created. We never do find out who the original creators are or what reality is. I find the concept that our 'reality' isn't, to be kind of a cool one.
Of course, Zelazny's Amber series is one of the ultimate examples of multiple dimensions. The only book I know to top it is another work of his, Creatures of Light and Darkness.
Zelazny's A Dark Traveling is a more standard take on multiple dimensions, the peacock's tail of realities branching out from every decision point, cross overs to close dimensions via machines &/or location, etc... Heinlein also did a bunch like starting with "The Number of the Beast", although "Waldo" was another take on it.
I don't believe the scientists are real sure of what is fact or fiction, at this point, Joy, so don't feel bad. There are lots of theories, but from the little I've read, there are as many for as against most among those who say they know. I haven't a clue, either.



I read Creatures of Light and Darkness years ago, I barely remember it. I shouldn't have given it away because I'd like to read it again.

What bothers me about some of these theories is this: theories are supposed to be arrived at after viewing observable and quantifiable data, not use supposition and then try to prove it with mathematical equations and known science. It seems a little backwards to me. Which is why, as much as I love science, I prefer science fiction. We can have all the suppositions we want!


Peer review is a joke too, because if you don't agree with the 'consensus' you find yourself ostracized. Many valid theories have been attacked for this reason and given no credibility all because the scientist wouldn't co-sign crap. Science shouldn't be about politicis, office or national, it should be about science.
Global warming is yet another joke. In the 90's we had record high temps but not since. If the Al Gores of the world took the time to actually research it, see the research done on the ice cores, they'd find this is a natural occurance all through Earth's geological history. It's only because Gore and Pelosi's husband will be making a fortune in their investments in alternative energies that the Global warming theory took on the mass proportions that we see now. If Gore gave a damn, his house wouldn't have been lit up like Xmas for Earth hour. One friggin hour and he couldn't be bothered to conserve energy. That should tell you something.
And the alternate energies aren't all their cracked up to be. Electic cars, yeah, most electricity comes from coal, the dirtiest of them all. The wind turbines, in Minn, they froze and were useless. Solar, too expensive and not very efficient, especially in winter months when it's needed most.
I do believe we should be careful with what we use but not for Gore's financial gain, but for the Earth that nurtures us. It makes sense to have a symbiotic relationship with her; without her we won't live.

What kills me is the idea that we can all go to alternative energy. You're right about Gore. Compare his house to Bush's. It's pretty amazing.
If you look at the government's web site, you'll find that KY has about the cheapest electric in the nation, but under the proposed legislation - unless we can trade off a LOT of credits - we'll have about the highest because we're almost pure coal & they rate us as 'poor' for wind or sun for alternative energy.
I was reading an interesting article (I think it was the latest issue of Furrows, the John Deere magazine.) about a program out in CA where they are putting methane plants in areas. The fuel is cow manure. I'm not sure if that would work here because we tend to small farms, very cut up land. The article said 15 miles was about the max to ship the manure & laying pipe to move the gas to the plant is another consideration. Both tough in this state.
Ace Hardware is supposed to start selling a new wind generator this year that might be worth looking into. It's supposed to be low cost, install on a house & have a very low wind speed tolerance. I thought I'd see how it reviews in a year or two.

...
Ace Hardware is supposed to start selling a new wind generator this year that might be worth looking into. It's supposed to be low cost, install on a house & have a very low wind speed tolerance."
I'd like to see advances in wind generators. Wind will always be with us. (We have a lot of wind on Lake George.) :)
I know of a home in Glens Falls with solar cells on its roof. The owner says she has to do her laundry during the day when the power is available to her. I guess her system doesn't store the power.
A few of the outhouses on the island campsites of Lake George use solar power to run fans which speed up the decomposition. Personally I prefer the old wooden outhouses because each one is private to each campsite, whereas the solar powered ones must be shared among the nearby campers.
I'm afraid of nuclear power plants.

Coal is cleaner due to efficiency in furnaces, not in electric plants, it's still the dirtiest. Methane is loaded with carbon, in fact, it is all carbon. Equal in it's carbon footprint to oil and gas.
The ethanol is not a good option either because of the space it takes as well as felling trees to do it. We need more trees, not less.
Wind is great for the areas that can maintain it year round. And those credits infuriate me, you pay someone in a third-world country to not use energy but they weren't using the energy anyway, it's nothing but a conscience soothing mechanism that does nothing to lessen energy usage.
With populations rising, energy shortages are going to be the least of the world's problems, famine will be the next big concern. And not just in third-world countries.
I don't have a grand solution. Using less is an option, and recycling. But for energy, there is no single solution, for every pro there is a con. It has to workable within localized areas.

I'm afraid of human error.


There are actually more trees in the US now than there were when the colonists arrived. They're not as big & more scattered, though. We changed the environment of the East Coast fueling the Iron Age with the forests. of course, the Chestnut Blight really hurt us too. Those trees got BIG, supplied food & habitat for a ton of animals, lumber & food for us & now there are next to none.
Jackie, do you remember Heinlein's Shipstones? For those of you who haven't read his books, Shipstones were an energy source that were a perfect form of portable energy. They varied in size & powered everything from a watch to a starship. Because the guy never patented them & they couldn't be reverse engineered, the company became the real power in the human race. Wars were reflections of corporate infighting among its divisions.

I recently read something about my area, where it said that after the colonists arrived, this whole area was completely deforested. I was shocked! We have lots of trees, I assumed they were always there. I can't even imagine the Adirondacks without trees.
I read Stranger in a Strange Land, maybe others by Heinlein but that was a long time ago. I don't exactly remember the word shipstones, but it has a vague familiarity to me. It would be nice to have them right about now, though.
I saw a movie with John Cusack called War, Inc. where companies rule the world and go to war with one another. It was satirical but still frightening nonetheless. I was an interview with Cusack and he said the idea was born out of companies like Blackwater. Touted as 'private security' in war-torn areas but in reality they're mecenaries.

I saw the movie based on the book and at least learned the plot. It was very unusual, to say the least. It's one of those stories you ponder about afterwards.
"Everything Is Illuminated" (2005)
http://www.netflix.com/Search?oq=&...
Can't wait to read the GR reviews of the book and also the critics' reviews of the movie. Hopefully, someone more articulate than myself will be able to express the inchoate thoughts which are in my head.


Jackie, actually, after I started watching "Everything Is Illuminated", I realized I had already seen it. It's not the kind of film that leaves strong pictures in your mind until you see it a second time. That's when you understand the story. The first time I saw it, I remember wondering where the heck it was all going. I just wanted them to get on with the story. It seemed to drag along. The second viewing slowly jogged my memory.
PS-Yes the grandson (Elijah Wood) was strange, but the acting was very


Jackie, shipstones were part of "Friday" for sure, a short story or two & some of his last books (the ones I hated).

I checked out one of the GR reviews of the book Everything is Illuminated. It's at:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
Below are excerpts from above-mentioned review:
====================================================
"... All of these sections have a very surreal quality. They jump around in time, different eras have glimpses into the past and future. Everything that happens is completely bizarre and makes no sense. It explores much more difficult topics, such as the nature of life, love, and art, and is in general much more philosophical and harder to get your head around.
...
"The weird thing about this book is that, at least for me, it gets frustrating to read the author's crazy attempts at philosophy. He wanders around so much, it seems like he is trying to write a little mini-story for every emotion he's every experienced in his entire life.
...
"The incoherence of it all becomes a part of the greater logic of the novel...
...
"I can't help but be annoyed by its weird narrative and pointless philosophical musings, but given that it bathes itself in its own strangeness, it raises itself up and becomes a pretty awesome book."
FROM: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
=====================================================
An amazing 32 people liked that review, including myself. The review is obviously written by someone of great intelligence and if he says that "everything that happens is completely bizarre and makes no sense"(initially), then I don't feel so bad about not being able to get into the book. Even the reviewer says "it gets frustrating".
The most I can say about the book is that it's a challenge. :)

A friend posted this on Buzz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xWGil...
Of interest to our earlier discussion is at 4 minutes in. What a great idea. It sounds good to me, but it's less than a minute long at that point. I'll have to do some research first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xWGil...
Of interest to our earlier discussion is at 4 minutes in. What a great idea. It sounds good to..."
Jackie, I hope the folks behind these movements will gather strength. We need a hero to come along and inspire the world toward accomplishing the goals of the movement. Certainly our world must have the brains for it. We need the will.
Thanks for posting the link to the video!
The expression "Resource Based Economy" is too vague. The movement needs a catchy name which will deliver its meaning more effectively. I once read an article about how important "catchy" names are, names which catch your attention and are easy to remember and understand.
How about: "SEWW: a Solution"
(S-olar E-nergy, W-ind, & W-aves)
I couldn't fit in the "geothermal" part. But that could be included in the details. The main thing is to get people's attention... especially the RIGHT people.
Books mentioned in this topic
The Thirteenth Tale (other topics)A Game of Thrones (other topics)
The Sight (other topics)
Hotspur (other topics)
Aunt Dimity's Christmas (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Diane Setterfield (other topics)George R.R. Martin (other topics)
David Clement-Davies (other topics)
Rita Mae Brown (other topics)
Nancy Atherton (other topics)
More...
Katherine, I think you'll like Lightning. If you like time travel, as I do too, then you should enjoy it.
You're right that some of Koontz's novel are a lot alike, the same format just different names, events. But there are those exceptional few that I love, for example: False Memory,Watchers, Odd Thomas, Intensity to name a few.