Cymbeline

[Betty]

Martin wrote: "I wonder if, sometime in the future, we might do a group read of L'allegro by Milton..."

Good idea. I am not well-versed in Milton but am willing to take up this opportunity to unpack this piece.

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Martin's point about Lud's Town and Richard Price shows one must read with healthy skepticism. After all, a factual quote from an author cannot be taken at face value but is a guide to further inquiry. Dyer's quote about Price came from Sykes. Do Dyer and Sykes make up the Shakespeare-Price connection? One would be inclined to agree they resembled their contemporaries with "invented biographies." But, each case is unique.

[Betty]

Candy wrote: "I laughed out loud at who worse than a physician to report the death (of a Queen)

I also really liked how Iachimo tries to explain why he would play such a cruel game on Postumous:, ..."

The historical setting and the humanly imperfect characters made a happy ending for this play a long shot. Nearly everything pointed to another tragedy or a villainous history play. But, the clueless king, the potentiality for evil to triumph, etc were kept at bay by fortunate occurrences and were turned around by the playwright's magic. Evil dissolves and in its place the king becomes the generous monarch, the evil-doers' repentance is forgiven, and Imogen's purity remains without peer. The noble heirs to the British throne return, and the two countries co-exist peaceably. There are a lot of spiritual factors in this reconciliation: prayers to Jupiter, true nobility of G & A, divine intervention, unparalleled character of Imogen, etc. It's an artful work with plenty of imagination.

[Betty]

Martin mentioned that the Dyer-Sykes's Shakespeare-Richard Price connection in Milford Haven is probably mythical. Here is a bit from a Welsh inhabitant who indicates that Shakespeare hadn't visited the town at all but had used a map.

MILFORD IN 'CYMBELINE.'
Why did Shakespeare adopt Milford as the scene of his plot in Cymbeline? He describes it as 'a mountainous country with a cave' which can hardly have been an adequate description of Milford at any time, so that it is unlikely that he had any associations with the country. Maria's remark in Twelfth Night, Act III, Scene ii: 'He does smile his face into more lines than is in the new map with the augmentation of the Indies' is supposed to refer to the map found in the 1599 edition of Hakluyt's Principal Navigations, Voyages, Traffiques and Discoveries, and usually attributed to Mollineux. It is interesting to note that on this map the only town marked in the South or West of Britain-the regions at a distance from the court, where the Romans might be expected to land-is Milford. Perhaps Shakespeare may have been in the habit of referring to this map.
TOWYN, NORTH WALES.
DAVID WILLIAMS.

source: Milford in "Cymbeline"
David Williams
The Modern Language Review, Vol. 21, No. 2 (Apr., 1926), p. 192

Williams's knowledge about Milford Haven's geography concurs with Wikipedia's description of it as "low-lying wooded shorelines, creeks and mudflats." However, this topography is unlike much of mountainous Wales. The testamentary evidence by Dyer, Sykes, and Mrs. Siddons of Shakespeare's visits to Brecon refers to an inland community on the opposite side of the country, which is described as mountainous:

Much of Wales is mountainous, particularly in three main regions: Snowdonia in the north west, the Cambrian Mountains in mid Wales, and the Brecon Beacons in the south.

So, Shakespeare visited Milford Haven and reimagined its setting or never visited it as David Williams writes. The town is apparently not mountainous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milford_...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geograph...

[Betty]

Martin wrote: "...you...pointed out that the historical Cymbeline had his court at Colchester. But in the play it is Lud's Town (twice mentioned) where he is based. Lud's Town is an "old name" for London, created out of King Lud, the name of one of its imaginary Kings...."

The topic is totally unclear to me. My sources beside Cummings Study Guides attribute Colchester (about 58 miles from London) as the center of Cunobelin's (Cymbeline's) operations:

*...city, SE England, on the Colne River...Colchester was one of the great cities of pre-Roman Britain, the capital of the ruler Cunobelin (Shakespeare's Cymbeline). It became an important Roman colony and was the particular object of attack (a.d. 61) by Boadicea. To the Anglo-Saxons the place was known as Colneceaster...

Questia. The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2009.

*Before the Roman conquest of Britain it [Colchester:] was already a centre of power for Cunobelin - known to Shakespeare as Cymbeline - king of the Catuvellauni (c.5 BC - AD 40), who minted coins there.[5:] Its Celtic name, Camulodunon, variously represented as CA, CAM, CAMV, CAMVL and CAMVLODVNO on the coins of Cunobelinus, means'the fortress of (the war god) Camulos'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchester

The wiki entry about Colchester's coinage reminded me of Posthumus's soliloquy where he blamed male troubles upon females and of Belarius's announcement in the denouement:

that most venerable man which I Did call my father, was I know not where When I was stamp'd. Some coiner with his tools Made me a counterfeit;

This is he; Who hath upon him still that natural stamp

It is supposed that Shakepeare gleaned his interpretation of British history from Geoffrey of Monmouth; so, he might also have picked up the name Lud's Town', which Geoffrey possibly originated. At times like these, it is soothing to remember that we are dealing with art.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymolog...

[Candy]

Asmah said At times like these, it is soothing to remember that we are dealing with art.

Good point, and it makes me wonder...what might be the artistic significance of these locations? In the link I posted earlier about Milford, the authors suggest these would be very thoughtful or provoking areas because the audience would be familiar with them and is it possible there is some kind of metaphor with the locations?

[Martin]

Yes, we are definitely dealing with art. It is quite wrong to say that S describes it as a "a mountainous country with a cave". The literal minded David Williams is taking the cave of Belarius to be at Milford itself, while Imogen is lost, and far from Milford, when she finds it. Of course Imogen does say,

Milford,
When from the mountain-top Pisanio show'd thee,
Thou wast within a ken

but to say this indicates Shakespeare had never been there is like saying that putting Milford on the way to Rome for Caius Lucius indicates that Shakespeare had never been to England.

Besides, is it not actually the case that we never see anyone arrive at Milford Haven onstage? Imogen cannot find it, Pisanio turns back, Cloten is killed before he gets there. And the clock is completely Shakespearean. Milford Haven is hundreds of miles away. Pisanio expects 20 miles a day,

Imogen: How many score of miles may we well ride
'Twixt hour and hour?
Pisanio: One score 'twixt sun and sun,
Madam, 's enough for you

and yet, Pisanio has time to get back to the court and meet Cloten who sets off on the same expedition, while Imogen remains lost a few miles from her destination.

The important thing seems to be 'haven' meaning refuge,

...how far it is
To this same blessed Milford: and by the way
Tell me how Wales was made so happy as
To inherit such a haven...

and to quote again my post number #8, "'The haven' of the first line makes us think of heaven", for the first appearance of the word 'haven' in the play,

I would thou grew'st unto the shores o' the haven,
And question'dst every sail: if he should write
And not have it, 'twere a paper lost,
As offer'd mercy is.

[Christopher]

Hello.

I recently joined this group, and noticed Cymbeline was the play of the month.

I found this old discussion, and am bumping it up.

I used to be in a 'brick and mortar' Shakespeare group which met once a month for many years, although I can't say I read Shakespeare all the time anymore.

But Cymbeline is an interesting play. It has some connection to a Beaumont and Fletcher play: Philaster Love Lies a Bleeding, as to which is the first 'tragi-comedy.'

Anyway, glad to see this group.

[JamesD]

Candy wrote: "Just got a bit of a start on this play.

The opening of two gentlemen talking about the events in the Kings family reminded me of tabloid magazines writing about celebrities. It's a funny image the..."
Maybe Leonatus kisses the handkerchief thinking of Imogene and then waves the handkerchief in the wind for the kisses to blow back to Imogene?