Horror Aficionados discussion
Horrorpedia
>
defining the integral elements of the horror genre
I disagree with #2. Horror doesn't have to contain supernatural or paranormal but can contain some basic real life situations that could occur. For instance comming home and every family member is brutally slaughtered...
Horror to me is 1) supernatural beings: vampires, werewolves, etc. and 2) non-supernatural beings who do unspeakable things like kidnapping and torturing and/or playing mind games until the victim goes insane. This is usually where Jason's recommendation for lots of blood comes into play.
Well, I'd have to add some good ol' psycho-sexual rednecks...perhaps even a backwoods mutant hung like John Holmes with an oversized cranium...that's just for you, Tressa! ;) (I did edit out mentioning sex with a colostomy bag...hey, what can I say, I'm feelin' the holiday spirit...lol)
response #2 and #3 both pander to the concept of horror from the emotional perspective...if you open the definition to include anything that evokes a horrified reaction, then the floodgates are open and just about anything becomes horror...Obviously, this has become an accepted aspect of the horror genre as slasher fare is widely considered horror on some level. Torture as horror? no doubt torture is one of the most horrendous and abhorrent acts in the sad catalogue of human behavior...one of the saddest aspects of recents trends in horror is that the torturer has become an anti-hero of sorts...Yes, all of these things are legitimate elements of the horror genre, but I would dare suggest that if you are going to produce quality works of horror that are appealing to all but a few...there has to be something of greater substance to a story plot and character development.
while i like a good supernatural theme, i find it less scary than your regular joe bad guy. Ketchum does a great job with that. it holds true to the real life horrors that surround us. you may be sitting next to a serial killer everyday at work. things that are tangible are easily digestible. therefore , much scarier
That is an interesting point Kelly...I have had many women come to my table during a book signing and tell me that they avoid horror as it's simply too scary and yet they digest a steady diet of Sue Grafton, Joy feilding etc...one would think that a woman would find the potentially very real prospect of being abducted and tortured by a psychopath much more frightening than being assailed by a demonic entity...there is probably a great psychological epipany buried in this riddle, I just haven't unlocked its mystery yet!
but I would dare suggest that if you are going to produce quality works of horror that are appealing to all but a few...there has to be something of greater substance to a story plot and character development. This is one reason that most of these slasher books don't appeal to me as a horror lover. Just inserting a psycho who murders a group of idiots one by one is not that interesting. For me to enjoy a story there has to be a lot of character development.
I'm not a big Lee fan, but occasionally he writes a book that blends all of this and those are the books I find myself liking. His Golem and The Black Train are two such books. I liked the main character in Black Train a lot and had a vested interest in everything that happened around or to him.
George, I feel the same way about the women who will pick up every Grafton or Patterson book and most of them are about women (and now lots of children)abducted and raped and murdered. I'd much rather read about a ghost or werewolf.
I agree with you, Tressa, about Gast or The Black Train. While I take a certain gruesome pleasure in some of his more visceral stories/novels, I really like what he's done with his Leisure titles. To me, a good story is a good story...whether it is graphic or not.
George wrote: "Horror is an emotional reaction to a particular situation, so to separate out the horror of discovering one has colonel cancer from the horror one might associate with the horror genre"What the hell is colonel cancer? Is that worse than Lieutenant cancer?
Jason wrote: "I disagree with #2. Horror doesn't have to contain supernatural or paranormal but can contain some basic real life situations that could occur. For instance comming home and every family member is..."I agree with Jason. There is nothing supernatural about The Girl Next Doorbut i think everyone agrees that should be horror.
I don't think it can be defined as an isolated genre anymore than Science Fiction, Romance, or Action can. Any and all books, while leaning heavily in one direction, will contain aspects of other genres. I don't like seeing paranormal romance in the horror section but I can see where it would happen based on the retailers perception of the content.
Chris, who published The Bighead? Would Leisure not touch a book like that?Colonel cancer. *chuckle*
Good one William...me mistyiped colonel cancer indeed. can colonel's develop colon cancer...not sure? Seriously, normally I just like to initiate a discussion and then sit back and watch it run its natural course...perhaps giving it a gentle nudge every now and then. Now, I'll render a rare and unequivocal verdict on how I see this issue...a psychopath killing spree, irrespective of the household and gardening implements he may creatively employ to achieve his ends, may be horrifying...but it is not horror in the context of the genre we enjoy...from my jaded perspective a genuine horror story or movie must possess some otherworldy or supernatural element that require what I refer to as a suspension of belief to be classfied as true horror.
Well, no, they haven't Miss Smarty Pants. They should. They published Wrath's Succulent Prey and I've heard that's pretty gruesome (and next on my TBR list).
What's really embarrassing is when a colonel develops private first class cancer.
Chris wrote: "Well, no, they haven't Miss Smarty Pants. They should. They published Wrath's Succulent Prey and I've heard that's pretty gruesome (and next on my TBR list). "Let us know what that's like Chris, I'm curious about his stuff.
I've heard nothing but good things about WJW. can't wait!
I don't know why, but I just put Succulent Prey on reserve. It might be one I just skim through by the middle of it, sort of like Exquisite Corpse, which I didn't like.What's really embarrassing is when a colonel develops private first class cancer.
Are we going to see how long we can stretch this joke out? Poor George. You should see some of the things I've typed in a post and don't notice till I go back and re-read it. My mind said it correctly but my fingers wouldn't follow through.
Well, I have only read the Teratologist, which he cowrote with Ed Lee...and so he definitely has a knack for graphic. I bought the new one, The Resurrectionist, a week ago...so I am gambling that i'll like 'em. I think I will.
I'm old treena and can always blame my miscues on fading eyesight and tripping fingers...doesn't divert from the fact that strictly human serial killers don't belong in the classic horror genre!
LOL....that was PRICELESS...I think George has now dubbed you TREENA....TREENA of the GoodReads Jungle!!!
I've been called Tricia, Teresa, Turessa, and this is the second time I've been called Treena. The other time was on some junk mail.
sorry Tressa...can senility be far behind? The other day I simply couldn't recall the capital of Iraq...and then my Goodreads passwords...you have my most humble apology!
p.s. my sorry miscues aside...like a dried up river, I think this discussion has run its course...and a concise definition or horror is yet to be had.
George wrote: "sorry Tressa...can senility be far behind? The other day I simply couldn't recall the capital of Iraq...and then my Goodreads passwords...you have my most humble apology!"Dude! Quit talking about being old. You are only 4 years older than me for God's sake!
George, I'm sure your mind is sharper than mine. My short term memory is just about shot and I don't think it has anything to do with age. I'd rather get someone's name wrong than forget what happened yesterday.Yeah, and you're not old George and please don't let our joking run you away from HA or even this thread. Sometimes our discussions take a wrong turn but we usually get back on track.
Don't worry, George. I'm six years older than you, and I'm...What was I saying?
I like it...gonna start calling you Treena from now on. :P
Hell, I'm 44 and *gulp 1/2. Who is Chris? Is he a new member?
T is your short term memory shot like mine, due to to much smoking of the ganja? They said that's what would happen if we smoked to much. Can't remember who they are.Don't worry George, the discussion will get back on track, it always does.
BTW I agree with you. Serial killers don't belong in the horror section. They belong in true crime.
Lori, I've never smoked anything in my life. I was such a goody-goody. God, an insufferable one.
Don't sweat it we couldn't all be bad. I did my share, yours, and maybe a few others as well. LOL My only regret is this short term memory crap. I have to look up words I know I should know how to spell.
Lori wrote: " BTW I agree with you. Serial killers don't belong in the horror section. They belong in true crime. "Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! What is true crime about a fictional character slashing his way through your imagination. Tell me Silence of the Lambs wasn't horror. The was no supernatural shit in there but it scared the crap out of people. Serial killers can be in horror if written for the purpose of fright. Dexter - no. Hannibal - yes.
Tressa wrote: "Lori, I've never smoked anything in my life. I was such a goody-goody. God, an insufferable one."You are still a goody-goody!
Yes! Yes! Yes! William I wasn't talking about fictional characters!!!! If their fictional, then yes put them in horror. I must have miss read George's statement,"strictly human serial killers." I took it to mean NON fiction. My bad. So sorry. It won't happen again.
I think most slasher/torture/killer stuff is a different genre from what I think of as horror, but a few pieces do create a "horrific" atmosphere. "Halloween" does, and there's a short story by somebody famous (can't remember who) called "Prime" narrated by a serial killer obsessed with the mathematics of prime numbers that's genuinely creepy, instead of just gory. And I think most of us would agree that "The Tell-Tale Heart" is a horror story, even though it's about an insane murderer. There isn't much supernatural content in Poe at all, actually!I mostly ENJOY the supernatural stuff more than the slasher stuff, though!
I think it's not horror if it doesn't excite a sort of creeping unease that murder mystery type stuff usually doesn't, no matter how gory it is. Things should feel, not just dangerous, but WRONG -- violating our sense of how the world works. Uncanny, or like the big disquisition in House of Leaves about the meaning of "unheimlich" (unhomelike).
That's why a story about someone's bad, painful death trapped in a crashed car on fire, or something natural like that, can be disturbing and painful to read, but it's not a horror story. The death is unpleasant, but mundane. But someone who is physically untouched, but there's SOMETHING in their house that whispers sometimes in their ear just when they're on the verge of sleep, and that something isn't human ... that's horror, even if there's not a drop of blood spilled in the whole thing.
You are still a goody-goody! I know. You balance me, William. Good cop, bad cop.
Good points, Cathy. Yes, most would say that "The Tell-Tale Heart" is horror, just like "The Pit and the Pendulum."
When a frightening sense of atmosphere is created, whether it's from a supernatural being or from a maniacal slasher, that is horror to me and it will always be horror to me.
I recently finished Niffenegger's Her Fearful Symmetry, about a ghost. But it didn't stir in me anything that made me afraid, so I don't consider it horror. I have to have a menacing factor in my stories to give them the horror label.
Cathy, you're assesment is excellent...this is what I refer to as suspension of belief...meaning that the reader must forego his or her convention belief of the tangible limits of what is and isn't possible and develop an empathy for a situation that could not exist in the real world...to my rather frazzled mind, this is a fundamental element of genuine horror without which you have...something else. In the first novel of my Converging Trilogy, I spent a good deal of time on the transition that characters make from dismissing the notion of otherworldly evil to gradually coming to accept it when no other plausible explanation for what they were experiencing could be had...again this entire discussion centers around dividing what is horrifying from what is considered horror in the context of this genre!Being eaten by or skinned alive by another human being is horrifying and ineffably horrible...but it is not true horror.
Ok, I wasn’t going to get involved in this because I’ve seen the discussion come up so many times and it generally involves a lot of people getting annoyed, hot-headed and ends with the symphonic clicking of a thousand ‘ignore’ buttons. But here ya go...There are people who will argue that Horror has to contain an element of the supernatural for it to be ‘True Horror’ and conversely there are people who will argue that ‘True Horror’ has to be based in reality because the supernatural is superstition and can never be truly frightening.
Personally, I’m in the middle; I think both the non-supernatural and the supernatural are Horror, ‘True’ or otherwise.
However, to keep the discussion going, I’ll volunteer two things.
1. There are plenty of reasons why the Horror Genre should include the non-supernatural but zero reasons why it should exclude it (and ‘because I think it should’ is not a valid reason).
2. Coming up with ‘Rules for Horror’ is fun, so I’ll offer up one (its inaccurate but sometimes I wish it was true); Horror fiction should have an unhappy or negative ending. Evil must win!
phil, your last point i find absolutely true. happy and uplifting endings put a damper on the work as a whole. what is horrific about setting out into the sunset with a slight limp?
Hey, I was happy that Danny and Wendy made it out of the Overlook. And Frannie and Stu survived the Dark Man to start a new life together.
Good points/arguments, George, Treena (lol), and Phil...and I agree.
If you decide that horror films and novels may be free of any supernatural otherworldly element as long as the concept of the story has the ability to be frightening, then you throw open the flood gates to all manner of fiction. Tami Hoag and Sue Grafton would become masters of the genre.Hannibal Lecter is an interesting antagonist...personal charm, intellect and a proclivity for human flesh make for an appealing fellow (sadly, this character went from an intriguing antagonist to an anti-hero to be somehow admired...this could lead to another interesting discussion about author and any prevailing sense of moral obligation, but I'll set that aside for now), but I say this type of fiction belongs more in the category of suspense thriller than it does next to the shining and salem's lot.
Regarding Phil's comment about the eventual degeneration of this kind of discussion into venom spewing nonsense that seems to rule the internet these days...Intelligent people should be able to express opposing ideas without becoming enraged...assuming they can do so without resorting to the poor man's substitute for wit - sarcasm and a bit of basic respect. Let's put it in perspective...we're discussing entertainment here, not the woes of global warming or the pros and cons of western civilization...no real need to get bitter or angry.
Regarding Phil's comment about the eventual degeneration of this kind of discussion into venom spewing nonsense that seems to rule the internet these days..This doesn't happen here.
You know that old saying that porn is hard to define, but you know it if you see it? It's the same way with the feeling of horror for me. Someone being murdered in a Tami Hoag or Sue Grafton novel doesn't evoke the kind of horror atmosphere that a victim in a Laymon or Lee novel would. Hoag and Grafton are more crime fiction writers no matter how many people get killed or or how cunning the serial killer is. A crime mystery is more concerned with whodunnit.
Well said, Tressa. I agree. To me, MOST of horror doesn't have to have supernatural beings in it...BUT there has to be that--as you said, horror atmosphere--in it to be truly horror. I do think of Harris' Silence of the Lambs as horror.
Horror Aficionados
Books mentioned in this topic
Frankenstein (other topics)Dracula (other topics)
Collapse (other topics)
The Mist (other topics)
The Girl Next Door (other topics)
What are the integral elements of the horror genre...here are perhaps a few characteristics that might serve as a basis for discussion...
1. Obviously, one measure should be the author's attempt to instill a measure of fear/suspense in the reader.
2. Horror is an emotional reaction to a particular situation, so to separate out the horror of discovering one has colonel cancer from the horror one might associate with the horror genre, I would offer that a suspension of belief is necessary...in other words, it requires that the reader readily accept something that probably does not exist in the everyday world...this means that the story must contain elements that may be described as paranormal or supernatural.
This is just a starting point for the discussion and there are certainly many more characteristics that can be added to this list.