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the problem with Steel is that there is no way we can produce steel in the UK for the world price. Our energy is too expensive (thank Miliband and subsequent politicians of Libdem and Conservative parties for that.) Our labour is too expensive and our environmental regulations are too expensive.We could insist that UK manufacturing used UK steel which would just mean that went bust as well because by using expensive steel it would be too expensive
Actually Jim, it's a lot more to do with the cheap Chinese steel that's still coming in. The EU, as a protectionist measure, has agreed to 9% duty on the chinese steel. The US, by comparison, has a tariff exceeding 240%, I think it is, in order to protect a vital industry.Our energy is expensive because we import rather than produce and the reduction in labour costs is a direct route to the exponential expansion of poverty and deprivation, so that's not sensible.
Patti's just referred me to this thread, which I hadn't noticed before, as I was worried the EU debate might invade GR. It's confined to one single thread. Hooray!I suppose I'd better say something, then.
Immigration and emigration is as old as mankind. Nothing wrong with it in principle; it only becomes a problem when it gets out of hand. Our social services (health, education, police etc) are crumbling from too many people and not enough resources to serve them. Mud slinging at past political inaction doesn't help. Reducing net immigration to allow infrastructure to catch up, will. This, the only sensible action, is fundamentally contrary to EU doctrine.
Example:
2015 New housebuilding in England: 135,000
2015 Gross (recorded) immigration : 600,000
2015 net immigration approx : 450,000
Numbers on LA housing waiting lists : 1,240,000
We can't even build enough houses to reduce existing waiting lists.
Don't even get me going on the systematic dismantling of our sovereignty, our fishing, agricultural and manufacturing industries!
Will wrote: "Actually Jim, it's a lot more to do with the cheap Chinese steel that's still coming in. The EU, as a protectionist measure, has agreed to 9% duty on the chinese steel. The US, by comparison, has a tariff exceeding 240%, I think it is, in order to protect a vital industry.Our energy is expensive because we import rather than produce and the reduction in labour costs is a direct route to the exponential expansion of poverty and deprivation, so that's not sensible.
..."
To an extent we're agreeing
The problem with the American tariff is that an American company buying steel in America to produce something is going to find their raw materials are two or three times more expensive that the raw materials of their competitors, so they then become noncompetitive, and cannot export and are undercut on the home market by cheaper imports. Obviously you can then put tariffs on products produced with cheaper steel
If we did this in the UK, given that cars are 60% by weight steel http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspec... and that eight out of ten cars produced in the UK are exported http://www.theguardian.com/business/2... then we would make UK cars too expensive on the world market and we'd put those jobs at risk.
Are the jobs of steelworkers more important than the jobs of car workers.
With energy, yes our energy is too expensive. It's been like that for a long time, we had a coal man as a tenant in our yard and before the miners strike he could buy Columbian coal for half the price of UK deep mined. (It wasn't as good as some British pits, but was better than the coal from others) Our other problem is that so much of our energy is 'green' and sporadic so we have gas and diesel powerstations on standby.
Good arguments about the steel industry, but as somebody said: if they've got billions for the banks, then they've got billions for steel. Fair's fair.
I've seen on the news an estimate that nationalising the steel industry would cost about .01% of the money given to the banks during the crash.Puts it in perspective.
And in other news, our illiterate Chancellor is hailing as a major success the recent figures in economic growth - conveniently ignoring the uncomfortable fact that the Balance of payments deficit has grown to an unprecedented record high.Tory economics are bleeding the country to death.
The Welsh assembly bought an airport, really useful and how is that not a nationalised enterprise?
Government have had their fingers burnt with the closure of redcar steelworks, stood back and did nothing, it has gone down like a lead balloon that they now are trying to help port talbot , hope that they do get the backing sadly too late for redcar, just got the derelict wasteland to look at now.
R.M.F wrote: "Good arguments about the steel industry, but as somebody said: if they've got billions for the banks, then they've got billions for steel. Fair's fair."And who told you that life was fair, Rumph?
The difference between the two industries is considerable. Steel has been dying for years from a thousand cuts. Chinese steel dumping is only one symptom of the disease. The only way to save Port Talbot would be the repeal of the Climate Change Act. UK companies do not want to buy British steel as it would drive their production costs up. Tata Steel cannot be saved by tariffs on imported steel for the same reason. Additionally, they cannot export, except at a huge loss.
The financial industry didn't have the same problems. Their problem was caused through a lack of liquidity, the asset values dropped through the floor. Buying the assets allowed the banks liquidity, whilst selling assets to a government that could sit on them until the value rose to a point where they could be sold off.
Will wrote: "And in other news, our illiterate Chancellor is hailing as a major success the recent figures in economic growth - conveniently ignoring the uncomfortable fact that the Balance of payments deficit ..."think you mean innumerate
Marc wrote: "Will wrote: "And in other news, our illiterate Chancellor is hailing as a major success the recent figures in economic growth - conveniently ignoring the uncomfortable fact that the Balance of payments deficit ..."think you mean innumerate."
I think he means both.
R.M.F wrote: "Good arguments about the steel industry, but as somebody said: if they've got billions for the banks, then they've got billions for steel. Fair's fair."they have no money at all
It was our money they were throwing about
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "Good arguments about the steel industry, but as somebody said: if they've got billions for the banks, then they've got billions for steel. Fair's fair."And who told you that life wa..."
From a common sense point of view, having a steelworks to provide the material for things like Royal Navy warships...
Well, I hardly need to point out the problems of relying on foreign countries to provide materials that are key to the UK's national security.
Jim, how much do you fancy the Nuclear subs you support being built with dodgy Chinese steel?And it is dodgy in spec and quality. I have that from a light manufacturing client who bought some last year and is regretting it because he's having to replace delivered and installed stuff already!
Oh, and look at this. Welcome to Tory Britain, where 43% of working age adults cannot earn enough to pay tax...http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2...
Will wrote: "Jim, how much do you fancy the Nuclear subs you support being built with dodgy Chinese steel?And it is dodgy in spec and quality. I have that from a light manufacturing client who bought some las..."
Hey, you've just nicking my point :)
There was Czech steel in the British dreadnoughts of World War 1 Rumph, so really this is nothing new, and not very strategic.As someone commented on the radio yesterday. At one time a war was decided by who had the most weapons and delivery methods. Now it depends on the quality of the arms, not the quantity.
scrap the nuclear subs, that problem solved
Will wrote: "Jim, how much do you fancy the Nuclear subs you support being built with dodgy Chinese steel?And it is dodgy in spec and quality. I have that from a light manufacturing client who bought some las..."
Not sure where we get the steel from, the previous subs were made from HY-80 which is a high-tensile alloy steel. The major producer is ArcelorMittal USA. About the only use for it is pressure hulls so they might be the only people producing and selling.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "There was Czech steel in the British dreadnoughts of World War 1 Rumph, so really this is nothing new, and not very strategic.As someone commented on the radio yesterday. At one time a war was de..."
We lost dreadnoughts at the Battle of Jutland, and infamously, HMS Hood was undone by dodgy armour plating.
Well actually Hood was undone by having armour plating on the deck that was too thin when facing plunging shells. Effectively when she had been designed they weren't seen as the problem they later became, and whilst the deck armour was made thicker, there was a limit you could do without causing other problems.There were no dreadnoughts lost by anybody at Jutland. We lost
3 battlecruisers
3 armoured cruisers
8 destroyers
The Germans lost
1 battlecruiser
1 pre-dreadnought
4 light cruisers
5 torpedo-boats
I vaguely remember reading that 'battlecruisers' was initially an unofficial class of ship, but the name stuck and those ships were used in situations they weren't suited for - people were seduced by the name and assumed they were more armoured/powerful than they actually were.
Effectively they were designed to hunt down armoured cruisers and commerce raiders, they were heavily armed and fast. Unfortunately they were included in 'the line of battle' where they didn't really fit because their armour was too light
Jim wrote: "Effectively they were designed to hunt down armoured cruisers and commerce raiders, they were heavily armed and fast. Unfortunately they were included in 'the line of battle' where they didn't real..."Cruisers won the day for the Royal navy at the Battle of The River Plate, which incidentally, is a good film as well.
Absolutely, classic cruiser action where they were well handled and well ledhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...
Can you even believe this shit???http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/04...
I certainly hope you lot avoid B&Q and tell them why!
I'm surprised about the age of 25 for the living wage. Why 25?It has no milestone like 18 or 21 used to be.
There is an online petition at Change.org regarding this, Patti. I have already voted.It is here if anyone wants to add their voice.
https://www.change.org/p/don-t-use-li...
So, the day after the Business Secretary is sent to Brussels to argue against, and vote down, and increase in the duty levied on Chinese steel, the Chinese raise their import steel duty to 46% - particularly aimed at the steel made in Port Talbot.Well done those Tories!
would that we had a properly planned economy like the Chinese. With steel over production larger than EU production and plans to lay off 400,000 steel workersSeriously China is in serious trouble at the moment, it cannot afford to keep dumping steel, and it cannot afford the political strife laying off that number of industrial workers could cause. And the world cannot afford China collapsing into the chaos of another dynasty change
Jim wrote: "would that we had a properly planned economy like the Chinese. With steel over production larger than EU production and plans to lay off 400,000 steel workersSeriously China is in serious trouble..."
To mention nothing of the 'disputed' islands.
But one reason for that is to give the Chinese workers a matter of national pride to focus on rather than their own living conditions.
Jim wrote: "Busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels"Yeah, I'm still waiting for your thoughts on the Karabagh conflict.
Don't think I spelled it correctly...
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Jim wrote: "Busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels"Yeah, I'm still waiting for your thoughts on the Karabagh conflict.
Don't think I spelled it correctly..."
I remember when the Eritrea-Ethiopia conflict broke out over a remote town named Badme (and I've been there, it's not much), someone called it "two bald men fighting over a comb." Perhaps something similar applies.
I dunno, Dave. I really don't.The cynic in me is thinking the gov't is winding things up,there to take the people's minds off the economic unrest in the country.
The billions of dollars that have been thrown at events here have caused great anger.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "I dunno, Dave. I really don't.The cynic in me is thinking the gov't is winding things up,there to take the people's minds off the economic unrest in the country.
The billions of dollars that hav..."
I don't think it's possible to be too cynical where governments and war are involved. Although I am hardly an expert on the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, I think your analysis is spot on. Wouldn't be the first time a government has restarted a conflict to distract from problems closer to home. Pinhead that I am, I am reminded of the final destruction of Carthage.
As for Eritrea-Ethiopia, I'll just say that the ex-insurgents running both countries seemed a lot more comfortable waging war than making economic policy.
I told Dave about my theory this morning and he said that's what the govt with the Falklands.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "I told Dave about my theory this morning and he said that's what the govt with the Falklands."Which one, UK or Argentine? lol
'Evading taxes is immoral' says the man with an offshore trust fund.
I'd stick with evading taxes being illegal. It's simpler. if these people are doing anything illegal then hand them over to the courts.If they're not doing anything illegal, given the complexity of UK tax law, that's probably nothing short of a miracle :-(
How are people who are so incredibly wealthy always so desperate to not only hang on to as much as possible but also to increase their wealth as much as possible? They already have way more than any normal person would ever need. Is this avarice something that comes as part of the package with great wealth, do they turn into Smaugs sitting on their pile of gold, or were they always like that? Or is it bred into them, with a lot of these fortunes being inherited? I just can't understand greed like it
Especially if you then lock yourself into a giant armoured cruise ship and spend the rest of your life travelling from port to port because you don't want to interrelate with the rest of the (poorer) world.If I ever sell enough books to become a millionaire (!) I intend to set up and support a business to provide wage earning opportunities for those who want them. Just call me Prince Charles, sort of?
The Panama PapersSo should I feel guilty that I have offshore accounts?
Depends on the amount, depends on the methods, but most of all it depends on whether you slip cocaine and large-breasted prostitutes into the pockets of the politicians who write these laws.
How exactly does one slip a large breasted prostitute into a pocket?Cuz, I've got pockets. Got my own breasts.
Sadly lacking in prostitutes.
UK Amazon Kindle Forum
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The Beiderbecke Affair (other topics)The Grain Market in the Roman Empire: A Social, Political and Economic Study (other topics)
The Peasants Are Revolting (other topics)
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I think we can cope with most deprivations except health, and education. Its shocking to me how mean minded politicians are under the veneer.