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Dorian Gray - Chapters 6-10
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Meghan
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Apr 06, 2008 04:33PM
So what you do think about the engagement? I'm finding Dorian's changes fascinating. It makes me think of celebrities, who go from being wholesome and pretty and nice to these self-centered, egotistical maniacs because they're surrounded by fauning yes-men that they can't help be changed by it all.
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What do you make of Jim? Is his situation really that shocking--or is it more just a sign of the times he lives in? Is this foreshadowing or just tough talk?
well i can tell you one thing about the engagement--when a guy comes in and tells two other guys he's engaged, they're either gonna say:1. you poor sap!
or
2. great. where's the remote, i want to put on espn!
And then they will completely forget about it.
This is an oversimplification of course, but it is yet another illustration of how the guys in this book (if i may call them guys) do not act like guys--at least not like 21st century american guys.
;)
See Tom. This is why you are promoted! This club needs a male perspective.But come on...you're telling me that if your best bud comes in and says "I've met the most beautiful woman and now I'm going to marry her" you wouldn't want to check her out? At least to see if she really is that hot? heh
Good point Tom! It seems more like what a woman would do with her girlfriends, the whole "come see my new love interest." At least I for one spent a lot of time doing that when I was young!
I'd have to say that Lord Henry, in response to Dorian declaring that that Sybil brought up the idea of marriage, is not far from a 21st century man in saying:"Women are wonderfully practical...much more practical than we are. In situations of that kind we often forget to say anthying about marriage, and they always remind us."
Put differently, but it's the same as the friend calling him a poor sap.
And I now hate Dorian. Not only is he becoming evil, but he's become condescending and judgemental, ie. his speech on how Sybil was not actually an artist after her one bad preformance. I don't remember Dorian being enough of an artist to have the right to declare that.
Gwynne--good point. On the other hand, part of being a 21st century guy is *how* you say things--and we just don't talk like that.(well, who *does*???)
;)
T
I think we should make an effort to start talking like that more often.
One can but try one's best. That is, after all, the very essence of Goodreads, is it not?heeheeheeheeheehee!
(sorry, couldn't keep a straight face!)
T
Okay, I have lots of comments but not much time right now. So here are a couple questions to ponder:It's been said that Wilde says that Basil is what he thinks he is and Henry is how the public thinks he is. But after reading Chapter 9, I really don't like Basil. He seems too needy and naive. So I wonder this - do you think Wilde put all his insecurities into Basil and all his bravado into Henry? And the truth is more that they are just two halves of the whole man?
Secondly, how do you think you would behave if you had some physical representation of what your misdeeds were doing to your soul? Would you begin to live a life more pure (as Dorian wanted to after learning of Sibyl's death)? Or would you start to feel like you just got a get out of jail (hell) free card, which allows you to do all the selfish, self-centered things you really want but are otherwised too guilt-ridden to do (as Dorian is becoming after Basil leaves)?
I don't like Dorian so much now either. But it's not because he's becoming "evil". I find it annoying because he seems to only be Henry's parrot. Whenever he talks to Basil he condescends to him, quoting whatever trivialities that Henry has taught him since the last time he talked to Basil. I would enjoy Dorian's decay much more if I felt that he was turning into his own man, making these choices out of his own intuition. His inability to see how Henry is effecting him, and in parts, toying with him is aggravating.
It makes me wonder whether or not it is more Henry's influence than that of the picture that really is making him change.
Mod
I'll come back to this when I can think. I've got a results show to get to. :)
Meghan, that's a really interesting point about Basil. I would bet that the character is definately what Wilde hates about himself, which implies that he really hates himself if that's who he thinks he's like. I bet he's actually more like Henry, but doesn't see himself as that dramatic. So in a way it is two halves of the same man, but less like Basil, because people are rarely half as bad as what their self loathing makes them to be.
Meghan, I would think that how you react to the "picture showing the deeds of your soul" would probably be dependent on where you are in life--youger ppl being likely to take it as a license to party, older people perhaps reforming their ways.That's a pretty broad generalization, but I think it might be accurate.
What do you think?
T
Big Tom (heh) - I think that is a fantastic point! Dorian is supposedly quite young when this all starts out. So he is quite immature and impressionable. But as he matures, he is maturing under an "evil" influence so his adult person is going to be less inclined to change his ways.However, I keep wondering if one day, he will reach an age where it all becomes so old and redundant and if he feels like he "wasted" his youth on petty and ultimately unsatisfactory accomplishments. Or, is evil neverending and the pursuit of it infinite?
So much to comment on! I like your point Meghan about Henry and Basil representing the two halves of Oscar Wilde. I agree that Basil seems too needy and Henry is just plain ridiculous.I feel like Dorian was more changed by Henry's influence than by the picture. I think the picture made him feel free to pursue whatever vices he wanted, but that he wouldn't have thought to do that had he not been spending time with Henry. I agree Meghan, I would like Dorian more if he was breaking away from Henry instead of just parroting whatever Henry says and changing his life's course based on what Henry tells him.
For me, I feel like if there was a picture that would show the effects of my evil deeds I feel like I'd be more cautious, like the picture would become some yardstick of the types of choices I was making. Not that you don't know when you're making a "bad" choice at the time but I think it's easy to get caught up in something and not necessarily think about the consequences until later. If I had a really bad night and then came home and saw the picture of me looking horrible it would probably make me want to change my ways. Of course I think you could also fall into the trap of doing it and just not looking at the picture at all, which leads me to my question:
If you had a picture like that of yourself would you look at it as frequently as Dorian does or would you lock it away and live your life?
As for "the book" (or was this posted in the other discussion?) my copy-the Penguin Classics edition says the same thing you found Alison,
"The book is sometimes identified as Joris Karl Huysmans's 'A Rebours ('against nature' or 'against the grain'; 1884) In 1892 Wilde wrote that the book was 'partly suggested by Huysmans's A Rebours...It is a fantastic variation on Huysmans's over-realistic study of the artistic temperatment in our inartistic age' and repeated this suggestion when he stood in the Old Bailey in April 1895. Wilde greatly admired Huysmans's novel, which recorded the strange hedonistic, aesthitic and sexual experiments, and eventual physical collapse, of an aristocratic Parisian recluse. Many of Dorian's own experiments in pleasure are modelled after Des Esseintes, he hero of Huysmans's novel, as is the 'scientific' and experimental approach Lord Henry adpots to experience. However, the book is only partly modelled on Huysmans's 'breviary of Decadence.' Wilde had originally given this book a fictitious title and author, 'Le Secret de Raoul par Catulle Sarrazin' but cancelled this in the typescript, wisely shrouding the book in mystery, hinting at rather than specifying a number of likely candidates."
It seems like the book makes Dorian even more aware of all the unexplored possibilities there are in the world and he becomes obsessed with pursuing them all.
I'm liking the book more than I was but still can't say I love it. Maybe I'll like it more when I'm done.
If I had a picture of myself like Dorian has, I think I would want and try to hide it away, but I think it'd be too hard to resist. It would be like trying not to acknowledge one's consionsce (I can't spell that). You'd want to make yourself feel bad for how much damage you've done.
Mod
Anyway, the falling in love and getting engaged part was a bit surprising for me cause in the earlier chapters Dorian seemed smitten with Henry, what with the excessive blushing and all. When I first read this I thought it was going to be about Dorian and Henry having an affair.
LOL, Dini - Simon Cowell! I love it.Thanks for starting my day off with a chuckle.
Mod
*****POSSIBLE SPOILERS******Dini, I think that Dorian liked all things that were beautiful, including both men and women. Remember that onerous Chapter 11? His collection of beautiful things I believe supports this point. However, Henry's not good looking it appears so what's Dorian's infatuation with Henry? It's his voice and his words to which he is drawn. At the beginning, when Dorian first meets Henry, he refers to his beautiful, melodius voice. Plus, Henry makes him feel good because he fawns all over Dorian and he continues do so throughout the remainder of the book.
Dini - it wasn't so much (for me) that Dorian liked women...what surprised me was that Dorian was capable of feeling anything beyond himself. He seemed almost asexual to me. It made me wonder if he truly loved Sybil Vane or if, to him, she was the loveliest creature he had ever seen, and (as you will find in future chapters), he felt he must collect her like he collected everything else?
Mod
You know how he kept harping on the fact that she was one character one night and another the next? It kind of made me wonder if he was in love with the characters and she was the first person to really bring them "to life".Almost like your favorite tv show or movie character you kind of crush on and you get to meet that actor in person. Your feelings are attached to the character he plays not to the person himself. And then you find out he's illiterate or a complete jerk. Doesn't it just ruin your entire image of who that person is? I wonder if that was how Dorian felt after Sybil failed in her acting.
Mod
I was more than a little amazed at how quickly he was able to dismiss her, even after learning of her *SPOILER*death. It was like how you would dismiss the news of another death of child in Afghanistan. You feel for it for a few moments, but then you go on with your life. It just doesn't directly touch your life so you're able to compartamentalize it.
I think, Tom, that the way the gentlemen reacted when Dorian informed them of his engagement was a result of their infatuation of him. They wanted to check out the competition, so to speak. I think both Lord Henry and Basil are infatuated with Dorian, though for different reasons.I agree that Dorian was in love with the characters Sybil played and not with Sybil herself. He didn't know anything about Sybil the person! He was in love with the feelings she stirred in him, but never with her.
Also, about the portrait: I think that Dorian first thought that by living an exemplary life, he could reverse the unsavory effect on the portrait. But then he remembered that even if he were good, he would still age in time. Therefore there would still be damage to the portrait. So he decided, what the heck, he might as well do as he pleased because the portrait would grow hideous to him in any case.
Did anyone else think that he sort felt that the picture changing really wouldn't phase him that badly? I mean, sure it startled him. Wouldn't you be weirded out knowing that a painting just altered itself because of some deed you did? But after a while, I think you'd believe that out-of-sight, out-of-mind. I just wonder if he thought that given time, he'd get used to it.
About Sybil, I got the impression that she wasn't just too distracted to perform well. Didn't she say she bombed on purpose so she wouldn't be as in demand, so she could become a wife? Am I imagining that? I thought Dorian was utterly and inexcusably selfish there. He acted just like a 4 year old who has a favorite toy, but as soon as the toy breaks, he casts it aside.
I thought it was that, once she knew what real love was, she just couldn't fake it anymore. She was such a good actress because she believed in everything she was saying, but the words paled in comparison to the real thing.
Yes. She felt like Dorian's love freed her from the chains of having to pretend. But she did fail on purpose. She just didn't have it in her heart any more to pretend at other people's love when she finally had one of her own.I think that's what made her such an exceptional actress was that she lived and breathed these other characters.
Mod
Mod
I think they're infatuated with him for different reasons. Basil because Basil's an artist who loves beauty, and Dorian was such a good subject for him to paint. Also Basil loved Dorian's innocent nature, which is why he didn't want to introduce him to Lord Henry.Lord Henry's infatuated with him because Dorian's good for the ol' ego. He's got this young, handsome boy who hangs on his every word and basically worships the ground he walks on. Whose head wouldn't be turned by that?
I am reading a version of the book with pictures included (see my profile to see the book cover). Is anyone else reading this version? If so what do they think about it?
Well the illistrated version has all kinds of photographs and drawing to go along with the story. Practically every page has some sort of illistration. It is kinda neat. I didn't even mean to get it.
I just finished Chpt. 10. I was a little surprised at how easily Dorian didn't care that Sybil died. How weird that at first he was all obsessed with her death and wanted to go and make it up to her and then just decided it was part of her act. And I also think he is getting kinda paranoid about the painting. Like How he won't let anyone see it not even once.. when they had never seen it before so how could they notice the difference?
