The History Book Club discussion
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2. A. LINCOLN ~ CHAPTERS 4 - 6 (43 - 98) (11/08/09 - 11/14/09) ~ No spoilers, please
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Yes, necessity was a large part of it..but I think paying the debts made him feel that he had settled things on a number of fronts.
Remember Sarah had married somebody else and not him; the man had died and had left her with children and debts. Maybe he thought that he would have done better by her in the long run. He must have been keeping tabs on her from afar; because how would he know of her circumstances. Most folks move on nowadays and do not keep tabs on their former attachments or their whereabouts (unless he was still carrying somewhat of a torch after all of this time) and remember communication and travel were difficult.
I think he saw a marriage of necessity of course; but also of winning the gal at the end (salvaging his pride in some respects) but this is all conjecture but fun to talk about.
Bentley wrote: "I think he knew that he needed a wife and pronto. Yes, necessity was a large part of it..but I think paying the debts made him feel that he had settled things on a number of fronts.
Remember ..."
yes, that's right. Thomas also took a year to prepare, and think about what he was going to do.
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http://climateprogress.org/2009/02/16...
The book that he referenced was mentioned by White in Chapter Four:
English Grammar in Familiar Lectures by Samuel Kirkham
Lincoln walked six miles to get a copy.
Other favorites:
Henry IV, Parts One and Two
Hamlet
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Other books he was interested in and studied:
by C.-F. VolneyThis was a work translated by Thomas Jefferson and stated that Morality was the true measure of faith. Volney advocated the overthrow of the twin medieval tyrannies of state and church. This book was written during the French Revolution.
Lincoln also read Paine:
"Lincoln read Paine's dismissal of the Bible which called it a book of lies"
Lincoln developed an affinity to Robert Burns and this increased Lincoln's skepticism. White indicated that Burns was a refugee of Scottish Calvinism and he had cried out against the Presbyterian's teachings of Predestination.
White also said that whatever Lincoln read ended up in his writing so it is obvious that these folks which he read influenced him tremendously as it related to his religious beliefs.
In fact, some folks close to Lincoln remember his reading a paper attacking divinity in the spirit of Volney and Paine. Hill, his friend, grabbed it and threw it into the fire obviously trying to save his friend from ostracism.
Lincoln seemed to be leaning towards those authors who challenged traditional Christian teachings so he was leaving behind the Baptist teachings of his parents according to White.
Lincoln became the postmaster and still had time to do other things including becoming a surveyor which he knew nothing about.
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When Lincoln came home he discovered all was not well with his finances. Berry was drinking while Lincoln was away, had died and had a lot of debts. Because he was in partnership with Berry, Lincoln had to assume Berry's debts. At that point, Lincoln owed everybody. I have to say that it was admirable for Lincoln to work to pay off these debts. It reminded me in a way of Thomas, his father, paying off Sarah's dead husband's debts.
I have no idea how much money $1100 would be equated to now; but it had to be a large sum of money in 1835! White claims that this would amount to $25,000 in today's dollars.
My feeling is that Lincoln owed a lot to his wife's Mary cousin John Stuart.
Stuart (who was the cousin of Lincoln’s future wife Mary Todd) was impressed with Lincoln and encouraged him to study law.[22:] Lincoln was probably familiar with courtrooms from an early age. While the family was still in Kentucky his father was frequently involved with filing deeds, serving on juries, and attending sheriff’s sales, and Lincoln was likely aware of his father’s legal issues. When the family moved to Indiana, Lincoln lived within 15 miles of three different county courthouses and, attracted by the opportunity of hearing a good oral presentation, Lincoln, like many other people on the frontier, attended court sessions as a spectator. This practice continued when Lincoln moved to New Salem in Illinois.[23:] Noticing how often lawyers referred to them, Lincoln made a point of reading and studying the Revised Statutes of Indiana, the Declaration of Independence, and the United States Constitution.[24:] In the first half of 1835, frequently using law books borrowed from the firm of Stuart and Drummond, Lincoln began the study of law in earnest.[25:]
Source - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_...
Lincoln became determined to study law but at that time there were only seven Law Schools!! And none in Illinois!
Thus his new favorite book became the following:
by William Blackstone
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Other books he was interested in and studied:
by C.-F. VolneyThis was a work translated by Thomas Jefferson and stated that Morality was the true measure of faith. Volney advocated the overthrow of the twin medieval tyrannies of state and church. This book was written during the French Revolution.
Lincoln also read Paine:
"Lincoln read Paine's dismissal of the Bible which called it a book of lies"
Lincoln developed an affinity to Robert Burns and this increased Lincoln's skepticism. White indicated that Burns was a refugee of Scottish Calvinism and he had cried out against the Presbyterian's teachings of Predestination.
White also said that whatever Lincoln read ended up in his writing so it is obvious that these folks which he read influenced him tremendously as it related to his religious beliefs.
In fact, some folks close to Lincoln remember his reading a paper attacking divinity in the spirit of Volney and Paine. Hill, his friend, grabbed it and threw it into the fire obviously trying to save his friend from ostracism.
Lincoln seemed to be leaning towards those authors who challenged traditional Christian teachings so he was leaving behind the Baptist teachings of his parents according to White.
Lincoln became the postmaster and still had time to do other things including becoming a surveyor which he knew nothing about.
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Commentaries on the Laws of England A Facsimile of the First Edition of 1765-1769 by William Blackstone
Lincoln owes a lot to John Stuart who encouraged him to start the study of law.
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I was wondering about Lincoln's economic background and whether he made good economic decisions as a legislature. Lincoln was adamant that the expansion continue but then Illinois ended up being saddled with a $10 million dollar millstone around its neck which ballooned to $15 million dollars and state bonds were only worth 15 cents on the dollar. Does anybody else think that this decision was financial folly?
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Illinois decided to not vote to interfere with slavery even though the state as a whole deplored slavery and its implications; but they did not feel that they could vote to jeopardize the Southern states decision to support a slave society in the South. Lincoln, however, voted NO. I sometimes feel that Lincoln doesn't see many shades of gray in his thinking...it is either one way or the other.
I wonder sometimes because of his inability to be exposed to various philosophies and many different ways of life; that his outlook and educational background were quite narrow and fixed. He seemed to come down on one side or the other; without a lot of deliberation as to the merits of the other side...not to say there were any in terms of slavery. But it seems that the last book he ever read was the one he was quoting.
From what White is saying...Illinois had both pockets of pro slavery settlers and those who were against.
White does make this statement Joe which I thought was interesting...on page 75 - "Some, like Thomas Lincoln, had immigrated to Illinois because they did not like slavery in their home states".
I wondered at this statement by White because TL had actually immigrated first to Indiana from Kentucky. Was Indiana also experiencing dissension about slavery. It probably had a lot to do with where TL went with his family versus why he left Kentucky (ejectment suit).
Right now I guess I am half way caught up. But I have been really surprised that someone with Lincoln's background and the fact that he was even described by folks who liked him as being extremely uncouth that he ever made it to the White House. What an accomplishment. Stunning really. He was really single minded about changing his lot for the better and transforming himself totally.
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Also lucky for Lincoln that Stuart came through for him again and invited him to join his firm when he became a lawyer. It is odd that White emphasizes that Lincoln as an attorney was known for "his delaying tactics."
And now in one of his first major cases he is opposite Stephen Douglas and he won the case and $250.
Once again I am questioning Lincoln's financial ability. Stuart entrusted Lincoln to keep the financial records for the firm and it was pretty obvious Lincoln was not that good at it.
And then we have all of the traveling lawyers having to go on trips together and sleeping two to three to a bed if they were even lucky to get one!!
It was Judge Logan who I think put Lincoln back on the right track as far as law was concerned by telling him to understand the logic and the passion of those who stood on the other side of the courtroom.
Bentley wrote: "I love all of the little tidbits that White throws in as he tells his story:For example - Illinois was settled from South to North.
What was most interesting and hard to fathom now; but in 1831 ..."
RFegarding cultivating below the "sea of grass" these fiction books could be of interest
My AntoniaO Pioneers!
A real view too at the immigrant participation in settling the west
Here should be the covers for the links that I added
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The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
My Ántonia (other topics)O Pioneers! (other topics)
O Pioneers! (other topics)
My Ántonia (other topics)
O Pioneers! (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Willa Cather (other topics)William Blackstone (other topics)
Robert Burns (other topics)
Constantin-François de Chassebœuf de Volney (other topics)
Thomas Paine (other topics)
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You don't think he did it because of necessity? I thought that he saw his young son and didn't want him to go through what he went through when he lost one of his parents at a young age.