A Court of Thorns and Roses
discussion
What do we think about the ending with Rhysand? [Spoilers]
I hope Amren becomes Feyre's friend. She desperately needs some. I also wonder how Tamlin will be now that the curse is lifted. I got the impression that he either can't act worth shit, or really hated human's because he didn't really make much effort into wooing Feyre, IMO. He seemed to struggle in the beginning to be even remotely polite. I feel like in his position, I would have been putting on the charm like crazy, haha.
Not to mention he and Lucien both insulted Feyre for her human tendencies. Which makes little sense to me if they know she needs to fall in love with him. It makes me truly think they really didn't care for humans much at all as they definitely showed a disdain for them.
Oh my gosh, a new teaser: "I would have torn apart the world to get you back."
AHHHHH
This sounds like Tamlin trying to justify something tbh
Soa wrote: "http://www.ew.com/article/2016/03/16/...I need more...."
OMG!!! That was definitely not enough. Also, I just have to point out that I'm immature enough to have let out a snort of laughter at realizing that Feyre was using the bathroom. I know it's perfectly normal but it's something you really never see, hear, or really think about in a book about faeries. It just never happens. I kind of love Maas for that.
Oh My Gosh!Tamlin is pushing her away and she is broken..... I think the answer to her problem starts with an R....
Just read the excerpt... why is Feyre vomiting every night? She isn't pregnant after all, is she? I so hope not. I mean, I get that she is having those apparently awful and vivid nightmares, but I think such a strong nausea is over the top reaction.
Aso, it's hilarious how Feyre thinks Rhysand might be watching her while she is sitting in a toilet, LOL
Natalia wrote: "Just read the excerpt... why is Feyre vomiting every night? She isn't pregnant after all, is she? I so hope not. I mean, I get that she is having those apparently awful and vivid nightmares, but I ..."
Maybe it's just her getting used to her new body. In TOG, Aelin also threw up because her body wasn't used to eating large amounts of food. Maybe since this is a NEW BODY it too must adjust to digestion.
I sure hope that she's not pregnant. Firstly it's Tamlin's (ew), and secondly, if there's more action and danger in the next installment, being pregnant wouldn't be the best of options for Maas to take. That kind of stress could give her miscarriage.
Maybe it's just her getting used to her new body. In TOG, Aelin also threw up because her body wasn't used to eating large amounts of food. Maybe since this is a NEW BODY it too must adjust to digestion.
I sure hope that she's not pregnant. Firstly it's Tamlin's (ew), and secondly, if there's more action and danger in the next installment, being pregnant wouldn't be the best of options for Maas to take. That kind of stress could give her miscarriage.
I really hope not. And it's only book 1! And ewww Tamlin.
Did anyone noticed that the first character Feyre thought about was NOT actually Tamlin but RHYS ?
Also does anyone remember how tamlin mentioned that a mating bond is stronger than any marriage when he was talking about his parents... I feel like it might be a foreshadowing
Ship Ship ShipI hope Feyre is not pregnant cas then my ship may sink and crack to the bottom of the ocean like the Titanic
Ingrrrid wrote: "Also does anyone remember how tamlin mentioned that a mating bond is stronger than any marriage when he was talking about his parents... I feel like it might be a foreshadowing"I really hope so. He also seems like the more sensitive guy who you can trustto tell how you really feel and he would understand.
I'm sorry guys but after this excerpt, you have to admit something is missing from Tamlin and Feyre relationship.The guy, nerver wake up, when she has nightmares either when she is vomiting.
Mirou wrote: "I'm sorry guys but after this excerpt, you have to admit something is missing from Tamlin and Feyre relationship.The guy, nerver wake up, when she has nightmares either when she is vomiting."
I know right??? And it is because of him that she is so broken now. SJM knows what she is doing
Kisses A wrote: "Mirou wrote: "I'm sorry guys but after this excerpt, you have to admit something is missing from Tamlin and Feyre relationship.The guy, nerver wake up, when she has nightmares either when she is v..."
What bothers me the most is this sentence :
"If he [Tamlin] knew or heard, he said nothing about it."
What's wrong with him ?
Mirou wrote: "Kisses A wrote: "Mirou wrote: "I'm sorry guys but after this excerpt, you have to admit something is missing from Tamlin and Feyre relationship.The guy, nerver wake up, when she has nightmares eit..."
I think he is insensitive towards Feyre and he does not fully appreciate the sacrifice she has made for him. Feyre needs someone who will be there for her and support her. She needs someone who will have her back and appreciate every aspect of her. They will love her through her dark and happy times and be there for her no matter what. I can't say the same for Tamlin...
I think they are slowly growing apart. While I am a Rhys shipper, I will say that I felt really sad in that chapter. They've lost their 'spark' or 'charm'. But I like that we have people drifting apart, instead of that YA trope where every couple is perfect. I wonder what is going on with Tamlin. He goes into beast form and gets nightmares. What went out with him? We only saw him when Feyre was out dancing...but for the rest of the time under the mountain.
And did you notice that she said 'Rhys' not 'Rhysand'. There's this whole tumblr article about it, but Feyre uses 'Rhys' when refers to her friend Rhys (versus High Lord Rhysand).
*flails*TROUBLE IN PARADISE INDEED. I feel like there's major red flags in this excerpt.
Morning sickness is typically associated with pregnancy more than waking up after a nightmare and puking. In this scene, she just finished puking since she went to rinse her mouth and mentioned her sheets being dry when she goes back to bed. I think her vomiting is due to her Fae body adjusting still and the nightmares. Hence the cold sweat sheets.
I think Tamlin isn't necessarily pushing her away, but rather trying to forget it all by just not acknowledging anything related to Amarantha--including how Feyre has changed or the things she's going through. With his senses, you know he has to notice at least sometimes Feyre getting up at night. (I agree, that line about him saying nothing about it is very concerning for their relationship)
I don't take what Tamlin went through lightly. It would be awful to watch someone you love go through what Feyre did, and to do it with a stone face. But it's selfish to pretend he's the only one who had to suffer. She did too. She had to endure it herself. They should be trying to move on from this TOGETHER and it appears they are dealing with it apart and separate.
At this rate, their relationship is going to crumble quickly. Other things I noticed:
- Feyre referring to Rhysand as "Rhys" even more.
- Feyre noticing how the eye on her palm looked larger than it did earlier that day - which means she was looking at it frequently enough to notice such a difference.
- I think Feyre will soon resent Tamlin or blame him for how she feels because as of now, in her mind she did what she did for him. If not for him, she wouldn't be so broken. (Not saying I agree with this logic, but I think that's how her mind will start to work.) So I think she won't be able to look at him the same, just like Celaena could never truly stop associating what happened with Nehemia with Chaol.
@WinterRose- agree that Tamlin isn't the best actor, however, I do think that he disliked/hated/hard feelings towards Feyre at the beginning because she killed his friend, and yet for his friend's sacrifice and his court, he tried to woo Feyre which he wasn't that great at in the beginning since it wasn't something he really wanted to be doing. But he wasn't showing Feyre everything like for example when she didn't realize how many faeries were truly about in the Spring Court. I don't think we've completely seen the real Tamlin and hope to see the small differences in this book.I don't think that trauma can be judged and unfortunately people that share a horrific experience sometimes disconnect for each other because they deal with it differently leaving a huge waning gap that just keeps getting bigger. The silience here is telling, because while Tamlin beasts out and avoids, Feyre doesn't confront either, she notes that she could find out and chooses not to. In the same vine, she can't escape the eye. She's been imprinted by Rhys and as she and we know, he's able keep track and sort of sense things, and she can feel she's not really alone or unseen even if she wants to be. In a way, this makes Rhys her life line, because she isn't alone and someone knows. It's pretty natural for Feyre to be wondering about the whereabouts/wellbeing of the one who is witnessing her pain and keeping her from being alone with it whether she likes it or not.
I don't think Feyre's pregnant. First, it's supposed to be pretty difficult. Secondly, Feyre's body seems to be reacting to being a Fae not very well, combined with all her nightmares. I also think she hasn't really used/mastered whatever her ability is and it may be making her sick, like something out of Shadow and Bone.
Agreed. Not to mention book 2 is going to be so filled with sexytimes apparently and action, that a pregnant heroine is just not...ideal. lolI don't think we've seen the real Tamlin either. Well, the unguarded one who isn't somewhat limited by the curse.
With Feyre feeling as though she and Rhys's last conversation was on good terms, I think she's even more curious about his absence. She clearly is now starting to see him at least as not an enemy, and someone she confided her feelings in. With Tamlin ignoring everything, she no doubt feels the need to express SOMETHING at least--which is likely why she keeps going back to the eye.
Maybe Rhys freaked out about the mate thing and decided to just stay away but told himself only if Feyre basically summoned him, he'd return. So maybe Feyre doesn't really think too much on it and says something along the lines of "where are you?" or gives some indication she wants him there. So he gives in.
CatcherR wrote: "I wonder what is going on with Tamlin. He goes into beast form and gets nightmares. What went out with him? We only saw him when Feyre was out dancing...but for the rest of the time under the mountain. "
Good point. We know very little about what happened to Tamlin. We do know that the queen wanted to break him. We know that Tamlin wanted to retreat within himself so that he couldn't feel, which is why Rhys kept goading him so Tamlin would explode if given a chance with his power. Also, Tamlin had to whip his best friend Lucien and his wounds were salted. There was a girl from Feyre's village who the Queen thought was his girl, and her family was murdered, and the girl Tamlin was forced to watch tortured to death while saying she never met him before, and Tamlin saying that she was the girl (ie Feyre). This all happened off screen so in some ways since we didn't get to see it, we didn't get to experience the same level of horror of it happening. Also, if these things happened to Tamlin, what else did on a day to day life? What haunts Tamlin? Who if anyone will Tamlin turn to and confide in?
Also noticed Feyre turned her back against Tamlin and wrapped her arms around herself instead of around him. Not that I always sleep that way with my fiance, but considering the point (i think) of this moment is to show the distance, the sleeping arrangement is somehow more meaningful.
WinterRose wrote: "With Feyre feeling as though she and Rhys's last conversation was on good terms, I think she's even more curious about his absence. She clearly is now starting to see him at least as not an enemy, and someone she confided her feelings in. With Tamlin ignoring everything, she no doubt feels the need to express SOMETHING at least--which is likely why she keeps going back to the eye."
This. Feyre is so used to having only Rhys to confide in, and in some ways I feel like we haven't moved that far past the cell. It's only really Rhys there in the dark even though Tamlin is more physically near. I love the express something here. I get the sense that while she wants to shut out she's kind of glad she can't? Also, she says that she didn't tell the private conversation she had with Rhys and that's the most feeling she seems to have had. In a way, I feel like she's still arguing with Rhys over the conversation- she remembers his words and basically says she disagrees about having a human heart being a good thing. You are right...she's arguing with her memory/eye tattoo because that's all she still has at the end of the day. The only one who wants to "see" instead of look away.
In a bit of a weird way this excerpt made me think of the after part of the scene where Tamlin and Feyre are getting hot and heavy while she's tattooed. Once again, she has the physical stuff with Tamlin, but afterwards she is left with the conversations/not being alone with Rhys while Tamlin shuts down and out.
I think Feyre wants to know where/what/how Rhys is doing without Rhys knowing because she wants him there and doesn't at the same time, not only due to the deal but she actively wants someone who can see what she's going through and wants to hide it all at the same time.
WinterRose wrote: "Also noticed Feyre turned her back against Tamlin and wrapped her arms around herself instead of around him. Not that I always sleep that way with my fiance, but considering the point (i think) of ..."lol. So very true. Knowing Maas it probably means something, because an author could just as well not describe the sleeping posture as well. I can't help thinking of Tamlin's position as a guard position- beast form at the foot of the bed like a good attack dog, and Feyre's position like she's alone again in her cell/in the woods.
Yes, Feyre subconsciously seems to be curious about Rhys. We know he shows up about 3 months after the events under the mountain, and this scene was 3 months later as well. So that moment must be soon after this scene.I think it boils down a lot to Feyre and Tamlin don't deal with issues in a complimentary way. The one time Feyre reaches out to talk, Tamlin shifts into a beast. No doubt he blames himself for what she's going through, but his way of dealing with it is to not acknowledge her. Which is just going to backfire. Essentially, their coping methods will result in their downfall before any mate business even occurs.
edit: I also noticed it was when TAMLIN was having a nightmare Feyre tried to talk to him--that's when he shook her off and went into beast mode. So when she has them, she doesn't try to wake him at all and assumes he either ignores her or doesn't realize it's happening.
I just saw this and it raises a good point.maybe Tamlin literally can’t empathize with her? this could be an extreme version of what Rhys said and why she should be glad for her human heart? if tamlin just can’t/never has felt those emotions it could explain the reason she’s so alone sounding in the expert.
Because he had that heart of stone. But I got the impression that maybe all the high lord's had a heart of stone during that time, so maybe that's not quite right. Still, interesting theory.
Actually, the reality of Feyre's situation and her relationship with Tamlin is much more severe than I had expected.I thought the same thing. Like we all predicated this distance, but this is even more than we realized. I actually thought of the whole Katniss/Gale/Prim situation too.
At the end of the day, I think it's hard for Tamlin to look at Feyre--and Feyre to look at Tamlin--without all those horrible memories coming to surface. (Truthfully I kind of feel like Tam, being immortal, should be able to bounce back faster but that's another story) Anyway, no doubt Tamlin just hates and blames himself every time he hears Feyre waking up from nightmares.
I can imagine at some point Tamlin saying something along the lines of "if you had just admitted you loved me, I wouldn't have needed to send you away and you never would have gone under the mountain." As in, I think Tamlin will be tormenting himself over what could have been done differently so that Feyre never ended up going under the mountain.
It's going to get ugly and messy, I think. As they don't really seem compatible in how they're dealing with it.
I think there are some really good points here about PTSD and Tamlin's shutting down. It reminds me of Tamlin and his father who was the kind of guy that would kill human slaves rather than free him, and I can't help thinking shutting others out and not talking about what's going on has been Tam's coping mechanism for a veeerrryyyy long time, and likely unable to switch it any time soon. Also, it just now kind of hit me that my earlier description of Tamlin at the foot of the bed sleeping as a beast is like an attack dog guarding Feyre. What is the left looming threat but Rhys coming to take Feyre away and I wonder if Tamlin is on high alert and partially having nightmares due to the thought Rhys may show up in the middle of the night to take Feyre away. Rhys is part of the thing Tamlin cannot say to Feyre.
Good points. Not to mention Feyre was in the dark in the first book. Now she's naturally going to want to be more involved in everything. I can see Tamlin trying to keep Feyre blissfully safe and nearly ignorant of anything remotely threatening. I forget which summary but it basically indicates Feyre will learn of new threats while she's at the night court. Rhysand will probably have the opposite effect. He'll fill Feyre in and involve her in the politics, while I can see Tamlin wishing to keep her out of it. Then there's the matter of her powers. Rhysand no doubt will think she should master them and use them against the threats. I have a feeling Tamlin will feel differently. At least for a while.
Or do you think Feyre will hide her powers from Tamlin?
Do you think he might come to think the same about Feyre and Rhys in case there's a mating bond involved?
Definitely. And I think Feyre herself could even question some of her feelings. Does she feel this way about Rhys because of him, or is it simply influence from the mate bond? Or is it both? I can imagine it to be a little frustrating.
@Laura, I never thought of it being taken one step further and Tamlin trying to lock Feyre away from everyone but that makes a lot of sense especially with you pointing out that's essentially what Tamlin does to himself. The ramifications for Feyre is that she'll feel that much more isolated and in her own head. Feyre getting a friend would help break free of this situation and yet cause more arguments.Here's the thing,I'm not sure that I buy the whole Tamlin's mother couldn't see Tamlin's father was wrong or a bad guy because of the mating bond. I think that's how Tamlin interpreted it. From what I gathered outside of Tamlin, you cannot harm your mate but I haven't seen where you have to always agree; and if you did, who would determine the one to be thought right? To me, Tamlin's interpretation seems more like a Sire's bond than a mate. I think you cannot stand to harm or want to live without your mate. So while Tamlin's parents may have been mated, I'm not sure Tamlin gets it. Which makes me agree all the more that if Feyre starts to side with Rhys, Tamlin will fear its a sign that Feyre and Rhys are mated or Rhys is controlling her mind. Where inversely, Feyre who has gained most of her mating info from Tamlin so far will think that she cannot be mated to Rhys because she won't constantly agree with him.
When people who don't have a strong will, who are easily influenced, who are unable to say no and can't stand up to themselves are engaged in relationships, chances are, their partners will take control of their life.Not to mention this can happen without a mate bond.
I personally don't think Maas is going to write mates as being unable to disagree with one another. I think Tamlin's way of excusing his mother's behavior is to blame it on the mate bond. He loved his mother and blaming the bond is easier for him than accepting the fact that she didn't stand up for herself or against his father. (There's also the chance his mother agreed with their father. And again, Tamlin doesn't want to believe that, so he'd rather blame the mating bond.)
"To the stars who listen--and the dreams that are answered." Just a thought, but do you guys think it has something to do with wishing on a star? (like people do with shooting stars) A lot of the stuff Sarah had on her pinterest included stars coming from a girl's palm.
Don't know if this is just me being late on something obvious (or not), but just wanted to know about other people's opinions.
I don't think anyone has mentioned that--good theory!Maybe Feyre can grant wishes? lol Or maybe she can make a dream into reality or something. I think there's a good chance her power is tied to either foresight or dreams.
Aqsa wrote: "I've told them they can't read the second book because I won't be able to look themin the eye." - Sarah talking about her parents reading her books and the mature
content in A Court of Mist and Fury."
Oh lord. BRING IT SARAH!
WinterRose wrote: "I don't think anyone has mentioned that--good theory!Maybe Feyre can grant wishes? lol Or maybe she can make a dream into reality or something. I think there's a good chance her power is tied to ..."
But remember, her powers are supposed to be "harrowing", and makng a dream into reality is kinda of cool. But, you are right, it has to be linked to stars.
We have been discussing it with @Léna, and we came with a new theory.
Remember this quote:
"I would have torn apart the world to get you back"
Well, we think it's Tamlin who said that but in a moment of regret. We pictured a scene where Feyre is leaving him, and he is telling her this with regret, what do you think ?
True, it could be when he goes after the 'consequences' for Rhys disturbing his relationship with Feyre. It could be amount of regret when he realizes the mate bond and realizes his efforts are futile.My other theory is that it is Feyre telling Tamlin how she would have done everything for him to get him from Amarantha.
About the powers, they describe her as a 'weapon' or 'master of all'. Probably very night-courtish and compatible with Rhys's powers. And the fact that we're going to see Feyre unravel Rhys's secrets in the next book makes me think that they are more psychological than physical. Also, if they were physical, wouldn't she have noticed something by now?
@WinterRose and Laura- Agreed with what you both have said regarding his mother not actually being forced by the mating bond but being weak or agreeing with Tamlin's father and Tamlin not wanting to see it.@Laura, you make a fantastic point here- "Later we see that he doesn't have a bad opinion on mating bonds and says that if you're blessed you'll find your mate." I've been mulling it over and I think this is what Tamlin wants- a connection where you are so close that even if your mate was a horrible person, you couldn't disagree/hate them. The little bit of backstory we get of Tamlin includes that when he started to realize he had power, he tried to hide it and even join the army away from home so that his brothers wouldn't realize how strong he was, because it was implied that even though Tamlin didn't want to become the high lord, his brothers would have come after him. I think the idea for Tamlin someone who never leave you no matter because they "love" you so much is very desirable. So while he believes the mating bonds stopped his mother from standing up to his father, I'd say mating would be one of the things he wants most in his life.
@Souffle98- It could be something to do with dreams as we see her dreams can make her react so much that she is sick. I kind of took a less literal approach- the stars that listened refers to the Night Court listening rather than shutting out her pain and dreams that are answered refers to what Feyre wants and her powers being able to achieve through the Night Court and acceptance.
As for the powers not being physical, it could be that her powers are still manifesting; I don't think you have to gain all of it right away, because as a fae she's pretty much a newborn/toddler right now, and also this could be why she is getting sick. Her powers are being suppressed and slowly developing.
I think that line about tearing apart the world could honestly be any one of the main three. It would apply to Feyre if she was talking about when Tamlin was under the mountain. It could apply to Tamlin if he's talking about if in book 2 Feyre is captured/taken. Also, could apply to Rhysand if again, Feyre is captured/taken.I'm honestly on the fence with who says it. I think it could be any one of them, given the context.
It could be something to do with dreams as we see her dreams can make her react so much that she is sick.
Very good point. Nightmares certainly sound more "harrowing" than dreams so maybe her powers have to do with nightmares? Or bad memories?
Lol I feel like we're all so close to figuring it out.
Only six weeks to go!!
Kristin wrote: "Only six weeks to go!!"That means there are only six weeks till my semester ends........dear god.......
FINALLY kirkus review up!https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-re...
"The erotically charged lead-up to the romantic storyline’s climaxes (pun intended) adds stakes to the cliffhanger"
Okay so that sounds like the mate reveal (if we're right) may just happen at the very end. :P
WinterRose wrote: "FINALLY kirkus review up!https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-re..."
Ugh, I didn't really glean anything from that at all.
lol I know. Well, apart from what we've all speculated. Trouble in paradise for Tamlin and Feyre. And Rhys wants Feyre to use her abilities to help him win a war. We all knew she'd get swept up in the politics/plot and most likely, I think she's going to WANT to help Rhysand. And Tamlin of course, will want her to remain out of harm's way. It's not going to go over well with a character (like her) that is so action forward. She's not one to stand by and watch others fight. She's a fighter herself.And of course it ends on a cliffhanger.
WinterRose wrote: "lol I know. Well, apart from what we've all speculated. Trouble in paradise for Tamlin and Feyre. And Rhys wants Feyre to use her abilities to help him win a war. We all knew she'd get swept up in ..."I was hoping for some slip on Rhys and Feyre's relationship. Well, if Feyre helps him then it seems like they'll be allies/friends (hopefully confident too?). I can't wait to see Feyre learn and adapt to her abilities though. My favorite part of her character is her proactiveness, which is really the opposite of Tam.
It seems like Tam and Feyre's relationship right now is primarily physical, which we've all sort of seen from the recent snippet. I kinda wanna fight the guy, High Lord or not.
I think a falling out between Feyre and Tamlin is inevitable based on what happened and their personalities.It makes sense for Tamlin to be super protective and wrapped in guilt from what happened. But it's not going to go over well for Feyre, who is not the type to be content sitting in a protective bubble. She's the type who will fight if she believes she can help.
Tamlin sending Feyre away really just damned their relationship. Feyre may have broken the curse those last three days. (Though it was telling that she wouldn't say she loved him, when he basically prompted her to.) But by sending her away, he was forced to watch her torture and torment. And she was forced to go through hell. Both of these things are bound to change them individually and I think there's just too much of a wedge between them now.
It boils down to Tamlin's way of coping does not compliment Feyre's way of coping--so neither of them are able to heal or help each other heal.
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In regards to Amren, I believe Maas mentioned something about giving Feyre friends. Could regardless to her position/relation to Rhys, Amren serve as Feyre's new BFF?