The Golden Compass
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doesn't anyone else hate this book?
message 101:
by
Adi
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rated it 5 stars
Oct 04, 2008 01:50PM
It's a story, and a good one. A relative of mine is religious, and he enjoyed the trilogy very much, so you don't have to be offended by it if you are religious.
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(response to message 27 by Sam)I am atheist/agnostic (haven't decided which) and reading the books actually made me less sure about atheism.
If he did write the books to turn kids atheist, than he certainly didn't do a very good job of it in my case.
Also, I agree that banning books is ridiculous. Whatever religion you follow, there is probably another that has banned a holy book of yours, if you have a holy book. What about that saying that goes something like "keep your friends close and your enemies closer?"
The more you know about something, the more complete your argument for or against it will be.
On a different topic, I LOVE text talk, but I was not able to read it until recently, so I would recommend that you only use it if you know the people you are having a discourse with are proficient in text talk. I understand that it is quicker, but it makes it a lot of trouble for people who cannot read it.
On the main topic of discussion: I personally loved the books, but I know others who disliked the books. You are not alone. Even I can sympathize with that his writing was "thick," I am just easily addicted to plots, so I generally will struggle through any writing with a good plot.
I liked this series. Yes, I believe in God, and yes I follow many Christian ideals, but I DO NOT like the institution of the church, and that's what this series is really questioning, the authority of the church. I work in a public library and have a bachelor's in English, and don't believe in the banning of books, because banning a book is nothing more than choosing to be ignorant of things you either don't understand or are afraid of. Banning books only promotes closed mindedness. Anyways, I think this is a very well written book and a good story, regardless of the content.
I'm guessing you think that Lord of The Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia couldn't be considered sacrilegious if you tried hard enough? What with the mystical creatures and wizards and all? It is all fiction just as with the Ogres in Harry Potter. Read what you want. I happen to like the way these books are written. It is an adventure in imagination. No more, no less.
I do not believe in god at all, so I guess you could consider me an atheist, though I wasn't born one. First of all, I think these books should not be read too young. They are considered childrens' books, but the ideas in them are very deep. I can't see why some one would hate His Dark Materials. I loved all three books, but The Golden Compass is my favorite. Even though I agree with what these books say about religion, that is not the reason I read the trilogy over and over again. They have gripping plot and I love the characters (especially Mrs. Coulter).
Whether you are religious are not you should be exposed to other ideas. Books should never be banned. I feel religious people should be able to enjoy aspects of this book, even though the Church is the primary antagonist. Who couldn't be charmed by Lyra? The Authority is not violently killed at the end and he is not the true god (I don't believe there is a true god in the books unless it is Dust). The Authority is so weak that death is a relief. The angel, metatron, is evil and justly punished. These books cause deep thinking and still have moral values.
I haven't read aaaall the comments, but I have to throw this into the fray:"The religious impulse – which includes the sense of awe and mystery we feel when we look at the universe, the urge to find a meaning and a purpose in our lives, our sense of moral kinship with other human beings – is part of being human, and I value it. I'd be a damn fool not to.
But organised religion is quite another thing. The trouble is that all too often in human history, churches and priesthoods have set themselves up to rule people's lives in the name of some invisible god (and they're all invisible, because they don't exist) – and done terrible damage. In the name of their god, they have burned, hanged, tortured, maimed, robbed, violated, and enslaved millions of their fellow-creatures, and done so with the happy conviction that they were doing the will of God, and they would go to Heaven for it.
That is the religion I hate, and I'm happy to be known as its enemy."
So said Pullman. And in fact, he said a lot of other things, too, which some simple research (i.e. go to his website) will show make it VERY clear what his intentions were in writing this book: to make children QUESTION.
Seriously. Look it up.
As for those young'uns from the churches: Belief is the enemy of knowledge. Science will never try to hide Christianity or ban it and you have to wonder WHY. As long as Christianity holds up against all facts and arguments, why fear learning? And if it DOESN'T, and you avoid those things, you remain willfully ignorant, which is a far worse sin than lying.
...I agree that the books were somehow lacking. I didn't feel that the children really acted like children. Also, Pullman seemed to feel EVERYTHING had to have a meaning, which, if he were a true master storyteller, would have worked out anyway, but I feel it became rather stiff and unrealistic (even in the fantasy world) at times. Still great books. But even as I say that, I read the first two months ago and still haven't read the third...
just eat it as as an entertainment, although it wasn't an entertainment at all. if your belief is strong it doesn't effect at all.
WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE THE GOLDEN COMPASS?!?!?!?
Motormouth wrote: "I don't want to anger you but I have a question to ask you that I am curious about. How can you prove that the book is against religions? I have read the book. I have not seen the movie, but from t..."Sorry, but that is not all he has to say on the subject. I saw him speak a few yers ago and he stated, "A person who does not practice an organized religion, but does good deeds is better than a person who goes to church every day, but does nothing to help others." I am a practicing Catholic, but I agree with that statement.
Nina wrote: "First of all HDM is FICTION and yes the books could be considered anti-religious . In the book GOD is not the bad one, its the people who are trying to take over Gods power."That is an incredibly foolish thing to say. Pullman wrote this book to teach kids to be wary of fools who destroy truth with ignorance.
I liked this series and I am catholic. The golden compass is against the mainly against the church, and the church somwhat deserves it. I mean throughout history the catholic church has started wars, burned 'witches', and has taken money from thoses who wish to repent their sins. Of course this is the church of the past, I am not trying to offend the present church...
Why not, Nada???Haven't you heard about the pedophilia scandal which has almost sent the Boston church bankrupt, totally undermined the church's power and credibility in Ireland and whose coverup of the scandals was led by none other than the present pope in his role as defender of the faith or some such title.
There are lots of truly GREAT souls in the church but I'm afraid this fish is rotting from the head.
Cheers from Wayne, Retired catholic.
Wow! That is some rant. Every institution I can think of is corrupt or broken in some way. Why waste all your venom on one bite? Spread it around. I am a catholic and I am ashamed by these atrocities, but they are human failings and do not indicate that the church is inherently evil. Among the many themes of this trilogy are faith and hope that we can bring about a better tomorrow. What we need in this dark hour of human history is more lyras and WIlls and not Rush Limbaugh style negativity.
chris wrote: "There are reasons for me hating The Golden Compass. First of all, I pretended to like it at the beginning of the year when I actually didn't like it, and then these kids made fun of me because they..." not every one has to like it and every one has driferent fellings about it but i really liked it
Ashley wrote: "To be honest, I haven't even read the book and I already hate the book because its written by an athiest and that contradicts my religion. In plus, my church is bascally banning us from reading the..."not realy
it depends on how youlike at it
The main reason I picked up this book was because of an article I had read on it. If not for the stance of the church I probably would not have read the book. I do not like anyone telling me what I should and should not read or see. It's a book, a story (fiction), yes it might contain some of the authors beliefs and if it does and it changes your mind then what ? People need to be educated not brainwashed. What is the church afraid of ? For those that have belief they will keep believing for those that don't will still have none. If we would ban this book or any book then where will it stop ? I'm sure there are many books which offend many people, if we start banning then pretty soon there will be no books.
I liked it thought it was an interesting story, the author just offers a point of view. People need to lighten up.
If you think your religious faith is centered around limiting people's freedoms and choices, then you stand a good chance of being offended by this series. If not, you may discover one of the most powerful, moving, and entertaining YA series you'll ever read (also one of the darkest).
i wouldnt say that it went against religion after reading so many comments yet...look, atheism or theism is one's personal perception and perceptions often reflect in works, true enough...but we are sane enough to filter the things that we need. we can simply ignore the facts about killing the God and read this book as a simple fiction story...why to go so deep in children's book...secondly, no where it promotes atheism...it just says it exists....if we read Lord of the Rings, we could find a strong alegory against Nazis that the author profoundly denies but is clearly evident....so...lets just keep it to a story, have fun and that's it!!! i dont think our faith in god in s oweak that a book can falter it...and if we believe in god, then we should just read it in a glance and take nothing in...
I loved the first two books but the last one I was a little upset with and if you've read all three you know what I'm talking about. I took no offence at all with this book as it is fiction and I had the choice to read it or not and I don't care what other people have to say about what I read or when. To like or not like is up to each of us and if you didn't like it when you started reading it no one held a gun on you and forced you to finish it.
When I first read The Golden Compass at 9-10, I was more interested in the armored polar bears and wondering what my daemon would be, heh. I was kind of shocked at the "anti-God" sentiment when I reread them at 12 or so, but really, most of it went over my head and I was way more interested in the fantastical elements. Hardly "indoctrinated." I re-read the trilogy recently and felt I got much more out of it, and I actually plan on doing another re-reading at some point.
Oh well.. my wife and I were reading the series together and we really enjoyed the first two books. The but finale was absolutely pathetic and a major let down. The future of parallel universes was decided by teenage sex.... how ridiculous is that!
I agree that the resolution is anticlimactic, and I understand the majority of readers see this as a weakness. But I don't. Pullman's premise all along in the trilogy is to re-do Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Lyra and the boy are able to do this, to get it right this time. Although it's a profoundly simple moment, Pullman makes it as significant in his literature as it has been historically.
As to the contrasting theological views, my point of view is simple. If you want to protect your views by not allowing anything into your mind or heart that would influence you negatively or contradict your faith, that's perfectly fine.
BUT TO ME, there are such things in the world as fantastic stories, and if I filter them all out by nature of their anti-Christological points of view, then I miss a lot of great writing.
I always like to read a good story.
Johny wrote: "Oh well.. my wife and I were reading the series together and we really enjoyed the first two books. The but finale was absolutely pathetic and a major let down. The future of parallel universes was..."I don't believe the characters had sex. I don't see it in the literature really. But that couldn't matter less.
Jorge wrote: "The main reason I picked up this book was because of an article I had read on it. If not for the stance of the church I probably would not have read the book. I do not like anyone telling me what I..."I totally and completely agree. You took the words right out of my mouth. =)
I also disliked the book. I just kept waiting to find something interesting, that would make me want to keep reading and never found it. I finished it, and it just wasn't great.
Jill wrote: "To Chris and Ashley: I quote, "Pullman has found support from other Christians, most notably Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury. These groups and individuals contend that Pullman's negati..."now that's what's called a constructive opinion
I liked 'The Golden Compass'. I thought the writing was excellant and the story engaging. Loved Lyra. Had the story contained any obvious preaching, religious or philosophical, I would have shut the book and sold it to Half Priced Books. Authors who preach their messages are insulting our intelligence and showing a lack of writing skill.
Hear, hear! I completely agree with you.
Paula wrote: "I liked 'The Golden Compass'. I thought the writing was excellant and the story engaging. Loved Lyra. Had the story contained any obvious preaching, religious or philosophical, I would have shut th..."I agree. It gives you a lot to think about doesn't it?
To respond to the original question...I don't hate this book or this series but I did not finish it as I didn't care for Lyra. I attempted to read the series several times didn't get very far. Listening to the audio editions I finished the first 2 books, started the 3rd--returned it to the library as someone has requested it and never finished it. Till now never even thought about it. When I want to re-read a Philip Pullman series I'll go for RUBY IN THE SMOKE.
Reading this discussion, I have several thoughts...If people are afraid that Pullman's books "will turn kids atheists," one would have to conclude that their religious convictions are very fragile things. I am not a religious person, but I would think you'd have more...well, FAITH! If one's beliefs can't stand up to Pullman's literary arguments, that doesn't say a lot for their value.
Second, IMO these are very "literary" books. A lot of what makes them great is the quality of the prose. Maybe that's not everyone's cup of cappuccino, but I sure enjoyed them.
I was to be honest and frank with you and say I hate this book and the movie that followed close on it's heels.
I really enjoyed the book and the world it was set in however I never read any further than the first book because I just didn't care about Lyra, she was more of an annoyance or tool to see through than an engaging character
If you're so worried about this book, this *story* being against your faith, then clearly your faith isn't very strong in the first place. If it was, it could withstand some criticism.
Natalie wrote: "If you're so worried about this book, this *story* being against your faith, then clearly your faith isn't very strong in the first place. If it was, it could withstand some criticism."I am totally with Natalie on this one, it's like a tree that never gets any wind and has constant water, the roots never grow deep and strong because they don't have to, if a tree is submitted to near constant winds and has to dig deep for their only water source that tree will grow strong big roots. If a storm comes (a test of faith) which do you think is going to stand, that which has never had to face a challenge or that which is already toughened by experience?
Natalie wrote: "If you're so worried about this book, this *story* being against your faith, then clearly your faith isn't very strong in the first place. If it was, it could withstand some criticism."Agreed. If your faith can be changed by reading a fantasy novel for young adults, you probably never had genuine faith to begin with. Reading something that goes against your faith should only make your faith stronger.
Jack the annoying freak wrote: "WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE THE GOLDEN COMPASS?!?!?!?"Yes, I do loathe this book and it's series and the movie that was made with Freddie Highmore.
Anna, though it's entirely your right to hate a book, it doesn't add a lot to the discussion to just say that you hate it without adding any kind of explanation or analysis. Do you want to explain why you feel this way? What was it about the about the book that didn't work for you? What didn't you like?I think especially for a site that's about books and book reviews, it's really helpful to other potential readers to understand why people react to books the way that they do.
Paula wrote: "I liked 'The Golden Compass'. I thought the writing was excellant and the story engaging. Loved Lyra. Had the story contained any obvious preaching, religious or philosophical, I would have shut th...""Authors who preach their messages are insulting our intelligence and showing a lack of writing skill."
A completely erroneous statement. This book is modeled after the writings of John Milton and William Blake, who notably let their feelings known through their writing. It was Blake who said of Milton "[he] wrote in fetters when [he] wrote of Angels and God, and at liberty when of Devils and Hell, [because] he was a true Poet and of the Devil's party without knowing it". Blake's own personal feelings of religion can easily be seen in his Song's of Innocence and Experience in which he also denounced the dogmatism of religion. However, when one lists great authors of the English cannon, both are right at the forefront. I am not saying that Pullman is on that level, only time will tell, but he is most certainly an excellent author.
His imagination is second to none. The inclusion of Daemons, the compass, armored bears, the subtle knife, and many other are among some of the most unique ideas in any fantasy novel. Additionally, his characters are well formed and never predictable (specifically Asriel and Coultier).
As for the book being a method to bring kids to atheism, that is ridiculous. It isn't about being an atheist or a Christian, it is about morality. His contention is not with Christians, but with Christian institutions, and even more broadly religious institutions. Furthermore, this book is almost a direct response to the writings of C.S. Lewis.
How funny that both books (Northern Lights and The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe) begin with a girl hiding in a wardrobe. There are many startling similarities between the books as the reader progresses, but the difference is really what is important. Whereas Lewis's books are all about obedience and the reward that comes with and the price of going against (see Edmund) Pullmans is all about questioning and self determination. So if you are going to argue that Pullman is a bad writer because he tries to indoctrinate children with atheism, you had better be ready to say the same of Lewis. Which is incorrect in both cases. Both are excellent writers, the difference being their interpretations of morality. To close this, I want to finish with a quote from Pullman on Lewis.
"an open-eyed reading of the books reveals some hair-raising stuff. One of the most vile moments in the whole of children's literature, to my mind, occurs at the end of The Last Battle, when Aslan reveals to the children that "The term is over: the holidays have begun" because "There was a real railway accident. Your father and mother and all of you are - as you used to call it in the Shadowlands - dead." To solve a narrative problem by killing one of your characters is something many authors have done at one time or another. To slaughter the lot of them, and then claim they're better off, is not honest storytelling: it's propaganda in the service of a life-hating ideology. But that's par for the course. Death is better than life; boys are better than girls; light-coloured people are better than dark-coloured people; and so on. There is no shortage of such nauseating drivel in Narnia, if you can face it.
Excellent post, Blake. To me the books are about freedom of thought and inquiry. Does this go against religion? Well, yes, but that's just how it is.
Well, I liked the first book. I hated the sequels.
I don't think freedom goes against religion. It just questions it. Asking questions is not going against someone.
I enjoyed the series: didn't even know that it was about "destroying God" when I read it. I say it is about escaping dogma and the spirit-crushing form some religions take. It is actually quite spiritual--the children have daemons (souls) which evil people want to take from them. Good prevails in the end; the children are whole again.
It would be interesting to talk with Pullman and ask him what he means when he says the books are about destroying God. My interpretation of such a claim is that the literary and institutionalized versions of "God" must be resisted, as has already been well-articulated throughout this thread.I don't think Pullman is making any claim that the abstract idea of "God" or the existence of some all-powerful all-unifying force should be destroyed (how could it possible be?). The brilliance of His Dark Materials is that the campaign to destroy dogmatic religious institutions has a purpose: to prevent the loss of Dust, the mysterious particles that bring life and love to all living things in the universe (GOD?). I think this contast is why many religious individuals have found this series of books to be powerful, because it exposes the ways in which institutionalized thought damages the inherent ability to think, question, and love.
I think everyone can gain a great deal from this book, provided that they actually read between the lines and think for themselves. The most overt themes are clearly anti-institutional religion (because they coincide with all of the "exciting" action sequences that quench our cultural thirst for violence), but the mystery of "Dust" is the reason why this series is both important and brilliant.
This, of course, is just my opinion. But before denouncing this book as sacriligious, be sure to demonstrate that you have paid attention to more than just the action - make sure you understand what Lyra and Will are actually fighting for.
I can't say that I hated them.. I just couldn't get into them... sigh.. I was looking forward to it.. but.. failed
Some books are just like that. The second book is better if you have any free time (as if).
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