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To Swear or Not To Swear. You Decide . . .
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Lokki wrote: "I think you are reading/writing different things than I (and probably others in the conversation) am."I most definitely am reading different things but not what you think. When I say literature, I mean books. Novels. All kinds. I read science fiction and fantasy as far as my fiction goes (some political thrillers as well). I write the same. And they have no profanity. I have a lot of books by the way.
I'm very picky about what I read. I'll return a book if it has profanity in it and have done so in the past. I'm not entertained by that. I'm offended. I know I'm in the minority and I don't mind that. But I know it can be done and it is done all the time by people who put together great stories.
One thing I won't have to worry about with my writing is that if it will offend because my characters can't control their tongues. It may offend on another level but not that one. Plus, that potentially expands my audience reach. I'm in the minority because I'm vocal about it. But there are many who feel the same way who are silent.
Easton wrote: "Dwayne wrote: I have asked, twice, how does profanity make writing subpar? How does it make it "lazy"? How does it make it subpar? These are the things you don't seem to want to answer. You don't n..."Thank you. I understand your point, but I don't share it nor do I agree with it.
Literature exists for a lot of reasons. Inspiring and elevating are just two of many goals one may have in writing literature. Sometimes I write to frighten, sometimes to challenge, sometimes to entertain, sometimes just to make people laugh. I don't necessarily see profanity as ugly. I certainly don't see those that use it as ugly. The words that many call profanity are really just words that some have decided are offensive or obscene.
When I use it in my writing, it is usually used by characters that are not trying to be lofty or majestic, they are not always particularly astute people.
I don't have many rules in my writing, but one of the few is the right word is the right word. If the character I am writing would say (I'll bleep it for you), "why you ***-****ed ******-****ing son of a *****," I wouldn't be portraying the character correctly by making them say, "why you booger-headed blobby boo." Just doesn't have the same impact.
Not everything I write has profanity, not every character uses it. But, when it fits the character, I let them swear.
Lilo wrote: "Well, I'm glad you are here. If we didn't have great variance of opinions the conversation wouldn't be near so interesting."Well, if anything, I'm always down for keeping things interesting.
about time easton, it was like pulling teeth. -_- just so you know, sarcasm and caustic acerbic witticisms comes across as condensation. you might not see it, but remember tone and expression can't be parlayed in the written word. it's *wide* open to interpretation, usually negatives first.Also the art of penning a classic as to be immortalised and lifting of the masses byway of conciouness expansion is a very tall order. Look around you - most are closed to the idea and aren't changing any time soon. They want mindless entertainment and warm fuzzy escapsim. Something that requires a modicum of effort is painful. And weak creatures accustomed same dull things all day every day dont want anything tearing into comfortable safe familiarity. Adressing the other means looking a little deeper. And going in unequipped is utterly mindblowing.
I too share similar goals as you do, easton though we obviously have different methods. Im not the type to take the 'higher' road, using wits and charm to get the unawakened to see the light. (Im impatient). I poke them with sticks and pepper with questions until they wake up. Sure they come back swinging, hence one learns to duck. :D
Well folks, I have to bow out for tonight. My beta reader comments call. This discussion is fantastic. I hope that we all get a glimpse of other's people's opinions and learn a bit while we are here. That would be the best outcome. Understanding others doesn't mean you have to change your opinion. This is a great learning experience.
Easton wrote: "I'm very picky about what I read. I'll return a book if it has profanity in it and have done so in the past."I think it's great that you stand by your principles. More power to you. BUT as with everything else in life, just because you stand on your moral high ground doesn't mean everyone else has to be there with you. As we have seen in this conversation, everyone's opinions differ. I have probably just as many books as you (I have A LOT) and a very many of them have profanity in them as part of the dialogue. I am neither offended or that picky (about swearing anyway). I don't think I have ever returned a book. Even if it was a complete dog. It just goes on the donation pile in hopes that even though it was a terrible book, it might do some good by making a charity some money :-D
Dwayne wrote: "Thank you. I understand your point, but I don't share it nor do I agree with it."No problem. At the same time, I feel exactly the same way even after reading your reply. We really disagree on the purpose of literature but I think that's a topic for another thread. And I can make a character say something with just as much intensity without losing who they are as a character and without the dialogue suffering.I control my characters. They don't control me (another subject for another thread).
It has been lively, has it not? Thanks for the passionate exchange. Peace.
Lokki wrote: " BUT as with everything else in life, just because you stand on your moral high ground doesn't mean everyone else has to be there with you."That's the thing Lokki. I never said they did. People are who people are. I simply gave my opinion on the matter without reservations and responded in kind. Things got heated up in here after that. However, if anything, they will remember what my stance is on this. :-)
Peace and hair grease!
Lolz this was fun. The rapidfire discussion updates broke the gr app on my phone (froze and everything)! While i go uncorrupt datablocks, everyone have a good night
Easton wrote: "No problem..."I guess we disagree in that I don't believe there is one purpose (singular) for literature, but many. There may be as many purposes as there are books written. Using profanity is not about the intensity, it is just about the word, the word being the right word for that character in that situation. It's not there to keep the dialogue from suffering, it is just there because it is the right word. It's not about controlling characters or being controlled by them, it is about staying true to them.
Dwayne wrote: "Groovy wrote: "The fact that I feel this way makes me more creative..."Maybe, since Easton danced around my questions, you can explain. How is not using profanity more "creative"? Do you honestly..."
Dwayne, do not draw me into your battle with Easton. It's obvious you're upset, but your argument is not with me. My replies in this thread have always been nice and respectful, not combative, so why are you acting that way with me? I AM creative, my work is a statement to that fact. I'm also respectful to others opinions, and always try to discuss topics in a peaceful manner.
Besides, I think you got your answer in message 98!
Dwayne wrote: "I guess we disagree in that I don't believe there is one purpose (singular) for literature."Yeah. About that...you totally missed the point of what I said about profanity and its negative effects on literature. I didn't mention anything about an overarching purpose of literature. I just said what I think profanity does to it. I'm not sure where you're getting all of what you're saying but I didn't say it.
Dwayne said: Using profanity is not about the intensity, it is just about the word, the word being the right word for that character in that situation.
Again, this is another of the numerous points we disagree on. I don't think it's about the right word. I think it's an excuse for lazy, below subpar writing. I've mentioned that before so we're going in circles here, my man. If you're comfortable with it then that's you. We have a different view on this and we won't be agreeing any time soon. Do your thang, chicken wang. Ii is what it is. Time to pack up this doggie and move 'em out. Yeehaw!
I'm out like a scout. I am about to go read some Iron Man: Armor Trap and grab me some eats. Have a wonderful, glorious evening.
Groovy wrote: "Dwayne, do not draw me into your battle with Easton."In the message I was replying to you stated you're in line with Easton, so I was hoping to have some sort of clarity from you. I wasn't trying to draw you into anything. Battle? Argument? I thought this was just a discussion. Yes, there were a few little jabs here and there, but I wouldn't call it a battle. I am not saying you are not creative. I'm sure you are. I did not accuse you of being combative. I'm not sure what way you feel I'm acting with you. I was simply asking for clarification, nothing more.
Easton wrote: "I don't think it's about the right word.""Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
-- The Dude
Just one of those many things we'll probably always disagree on. But, every writer has his style. Every writer has his opinion. I formed mine by studying the works of the greats.
“The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.”
― Mark Twain
“Use the right word, not its second cousin.”
- Mark Twain (again)
And... oh, what the heck...
The Stranger: There's just one thing, Dude.
The Dude: And what's that?
The Stranger: Do you have to use so many cuss words?
The Dude: What the [bleep] you talking about?
The Stranger: Okay, Dude. Have it your way.
Not the best example but..."Fuck," I said.
Or
I jabbed my fist through the wall. Later, it would hurt, but for now, it felt good.
Both express anger, one with a curse, the other with action. Maybe that's what people mean by the lazy way. And NO, I am not taking sides. As I said already, I don't mind 'clean' book or one with curses, as long as it fits with the characters. Besides, one doesn't say the second sentence cannot be added to the first. :P
G.G. wrote: "Not the best example but..."Fuck," I said.
Or
I jabbed my fist through the wall. Later, it would hurt, but for now, it felt good.
Both express anger, one with a curse, the other with action. M..."
You may be right, G.G. But, the first doesn't really say "anger" to me. The word alone could mean a lot of things. Coupled with the second, yes. I can see anger. "'Fuck,' I said" could be an expression of awe, even, or *giggle* a command. It could be an utterance of disappointment. So, yes, when I have a character swear, the context surrounding the word is made clear.
Have a nice weekend, everyone, I've said all I'm going to say on this subject.
I write in a mix of genres. My spy thrillers have violence fairly explicit sex and swearing and carry a warning. My sci-fi series has future alternatives to swearing e.g. stars instead of a variety of current four letter alternatives. Sex is implied but it goes behind the bedroom door.Most recently I have tried a contemporary romance. A few swear words in dialogue and some sex, but I hope fitting to the characters. No warnings on the sci-fi or CR books.
Language evolves, what were once swear words become less offensive. whereas. other once common words. become offensive. Slightly off topic but the n word (I self censor the word is so emotive) in race was once used, commonly. Gay had a completely different meaning as little as thirty years ago and was never thought of in its current context.
How about the different uses of bloody in English - talking UK here where it is often used as a mild expletive sometimes with hell following. Then there are other language differences where words become potentially offensive on different sides of the Atlantic and Pacific. Fanny in US compared to UK meaning and not the name alternative for a lady. I'm sure there are many other examples.
All language should be in context. Written words have the opportunity to be considered but dialogue is frequently not considered; therefore, to be authentic swear words are often more natural, their absence can be just as jarring as their presence
Philip wrote: "Slightly off topic but the n word (I self censor the word is so emotive) in race was once used, commonly. Gay had a completely different meaning as little as thirty years ago and was never thought of in its current context..."
This isn't entirely true. The "n-word" was an impolite term, and always offensive; it was rarely used around persons of color unless the situation became hostile. "Gay" had the same meaning even forty years ago as it has today--we're talking 1970s--and even in the 1960s had begun to evolve. Your description of it was probably true in the 1950s. The first time I ever heard the word used in its present meaning was around 1964, and that was only because I was ignorant of it.
This isn't entirely true. The "n-word" was an impolite term, and always offensive; it was rarely used around persons of color unless the situation became hostile. "Gay" had the same meaning even forty years ago as it has today--we're talking 1970s--and even in the 1960s had begun to evolve. Your description of it was probably true in the 1950s. The first time I ever heard the word used in its present meaning was around 1964, and that was only because I was ignorant of it.
Ken wrote: "Philip wrote: "Slightly off topic but the n word (I self censor the word is so emotive) in race was once used, commonly. Gay had a completely different meaning as little as thirty years ago and was..."I stand corrected on timings - thanks Ken. On the n word is that true of literature as well? I am trying to recall turn of the century US literature but perhaps my memory betrays me.
I don't recall encountering it in "present-day" reading during the 1950s and '60s, and I read a lot. I did see it used by writers of the past, like Mark Twain, who probably used it to more to illustrate the level of his characters and their station in life, and its usage in HIS past, than to suggest that it was in common usage within his own circles as a well-known writer. But I was a happy-but-clueless kid for most of the 1950s, living in a semi-rural, lower-middle-class neighborhood, and a teenager for most of the 1960s, so, like most people, I was sheltered from all except my own local culture and the homogenized culture I saw on TV.
Keep your target audience in mind. The genre helps too. Erotica fans won't mind strong language-may even expect it, but YA fans-- mostly their parents, don't want it. My 1st was YA and a time period piece so I think I used "damned" twice in the whole book and only in the biblical context. My 2nd was a genre jump to romance and though I don't swear like that, ever, and I don't spend a lot of time around people who do, my character dropped a lot of "very bad words." ha ha
I worried about it and went back several times to see how many I could remove, and I also learned a trick from a favorite author who I noticed got around it by saying things like, "He swore" or He cursed under his breath", but in the end, I had to be true to my character and there are still more than I'm comfortable with, but my character is fine with it.
S. wrote: "Keep your target audience in mind. The genre helps too. Erotica fans won't mind strong language-may even expect it, but YA fans-- mostly their parents, don't want it. My 1st was YA and a time per..."
Think that is also good advice, the he swore bit I mean, a bit like the bedroom door technique to avoid the descriptions.
Ken you reminded me, it was Twain I was thinking of. I have not written historical fiction but I know that some reviewers of that genre get cross about not representational dialogue and attitudes.
I think as we all get older we sometimes forget how culture and fashion changes in both words and deeds.
We are also driven mostly by mainstream media and its levels of censorship and acceptance. Even that is applied differently under different regimes. Swearing and violence are much more common than nudity in US movies for example. Whereas it seems in many European nations nudity is fine but swearing and violence less acceptable.
Hi All. If any of you have not taken the poll, I hope you will. I'm hoping to get to 100 entries. If you do take the poll, please answer it as a reader (of Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance) and not as a writer. You can view the results of the poll in real time by clicking on the link below the poll in the blog post.Thanks very much!
Lilo
In more ways than you know. But I figured as much. I'm thick-skinned though. I can take it..."
Well, I'm glad you are here. If we didn't have great variance of opinions the conversation wouldn't be near so interesting.