To Swear or Not To Swear. You Decide . . .

[Groovy]

OMG! Good one:)

[Bruce]

K.P. writes regarding reading her book"... 'i'd hate to tell a reader this is how they must feel reading such..." I think that is a critical point. To what extent is the writer trying to control a readers emotions or perception. At one end of a spectrum is the graphic sex of a porn video. It completely describes what physically happens. At another end is the Owen in Ursala LeGuin's book "Very Far Away from Anywhere Else" who describes kissing Natalie "a big breaker hits and pulls you ver and down and you can't swim and you can't breathe and there's nothing you can do, nothing." There is not much description of the physical and the reader creates his/her own feeling about what real feeling of this metaphor is. The metaphor is not their tot titillate the reader or the author, but let the reader feel in his/her own way the impact of an experience that has probably been experienced by the reader. The scene from a book can be much like a painting say of a spectacular mountain scene. You don't need the guide there to tell you what to see and feel. Everyone has his/her own totally valid experience.
I think what I'm saying applies to how you respond to a character who swears or doesn't swear in a situation in which you might do smomething quite different fro the character.

[Bruce]

The point is, Groovy, you wouldn't need these emphasis words at all in speech, You can supply the emphasis with your voice.

[Micah]

Bruce wrote: "...195,000 tears ago. Who knows how characters at that time would have spoken. However, they must speak English in the book, They don't swear. It would seem artificial..."

I had that problem with GRR Martin's big series of books that aren't done yet even though he started them almost twenty years ago...It was all "ser" this and "ser" that and pseudo-archaic language until someone got mad and suddenly they were cussing at each other like some gangstas. Totally blew it for me.

OTOH, you could certainly invent curses appropriate to the society. In Egyptian times one of the worst phrases was to say "by the foot of the Pharaoh!" The Pharaoh being thought of as divine, and the foot being the dirtiest part of the body.

I'm also reminded of a program I saw once where a chimp was taught American Sign Language. It had been taught the word for feces, but never the concept of a curse. One day its keeper was signing to it from outside the pen. The chimp signed "You play. You, me, play." The trainer signed back "No" because he didn't have time. The chimps signed back, "You, feces."

I thought that was a pretty clear indication that cursing is a fundamental part of language development.

[Brandon]

Lilo wrote: "Take the poll!

SWEAR WORDS IN URBAN FANTASY / PARANORMAL ROMANCE BOOKS?
I just checked my reviews today and saw a new one came in addressing swear words. The reader writes,

"I like that you told ..."

I'm coming in really late here, but I felt like sharing my thoughts, even if I'm simply parroting what other people have said.

I am neither for nor against swearing in books. To me, swear words are simply words, and people in real life use them all the time. Having listened to hundreds of thousands of everyday conversations, I can state right now, with one-hundred percent honesty, that about seventy-five percent of those conversations involved one or more of the people having it swearing.

That being said, I do feel swearing has a time and place where it should be used, and a time and place where it shouldn't. For example, maybe a certain character in a story, an antagonist or some such, is a vulgar, foul-mouthed jerk who hates everyone and everything. A guy like that would probably swear a lot. What about pirates? I know Captain Jack Sparrow was pretty kid friendly, but let's be honest, in real life, pirates back in the day probably cursed by the bucket loads. So long as the swearing fits the character, I believe it can work.

Even sometimes with characters that don't really swear it can still work. For example, when your MC has just realized how in over their head he/she is, a simple "Oh, shit. We're totally screwed." might be called for. So long as it fits with the situation, it's not bad.

I think the issue that comes with swearing is people use it too much. You want to make it sound like two people are arguing? Let's just throw in a lot of curse words and some good old-fashion marital violence. Want to try and be funny? Have your character start swearing up a storm. These moments, I feel, simply do not work.

Some people, I think, get too hung up on this issue. Me? I feel there is a time and place for swearing, and a time and place where swearing will only detract from the story. It's up to each author to pick and choose when that time and place does and does not work.

[K.P.]

lolz i hate reading books where cussing was inserted to make the bad guy or anti hero more cool. the placement timing and context were all off. obviously the author dint swear or normally uses milder blue ones.

for example, my dad dint curse round me mom & sis, but if he hurt himself he'd unload a whole string of expletives. depending on how bad the injury, the change in word choice. damn was the mildest. f-bomb was the worst.

one time he fell in a water heater box and couldnt get out. he called for help. we checked and he seemed fine. then he started a whole litany & we came down to help thinking he seriously hurt himself (the guy was short - he simply couldnt free himself lolz).

so swears do have a place...

lolz, that chimp calling the trainer a pile of poo. i just about died...

[Groovy]

Victoria wrote: "Ditto. swear words need to fit the character. I've been reading a book that has curse words....the big F bomb...and it seems awkward, as if the author just felt she needed to throw them in. I don't..."

Exactly, Victoria! Exactly!

And thank-you, Bruce, dog-gonnit!

[Lilo]

Micah wrote: "Groovy wrote: "Why not: "Oh my God", the Wisconsin Dells are beautiful?..."

If you do that, you'll get pounced on by the "do not take the name of my God in vain!" crowd.

It's true. I've seen it."

My poll shows that few people consider the religious swear words to be worst than regular swear words. So if your objective is to avoid offending then you are safer to say "OMG, The Wisconsin Dells are beautiful!" But more people think hard language should be in adult books, so if your goal is to appeal to that crowd, you should use "Fuck, The Wisconsin Dells are beautiful!" as long as you rarely use the word. Only two people out of 75 said the more swearing the better. The comments also clearly indicate that even among those who want swearing, they want it in moderate amounts and designed to fit the story / character personalities.

But personally, my theory is it's best to write the story the way you want and make the characters speak in a way that fits them. Then tell your customers what you did so they can decide if that is a book they want. (i.e. no profanity, mild profanity, robust profanity)

[K.P.]

ooh i'd better count my profanities then. what constitutes as mild moderate and excessive? 5? more than 20? is it all of them (mild to f-bomb?) does the blue ones count? i really want to know so i can run some tests...

[Easton]

Hmmm.

I guess if some people get offended by others' opinions about disliking profanity and vulgarity then there has got to be others that find their rants, whether infantile or warranted, to be just as offensive if not hilarious. Instead of telling people to get over it, it's probably something they should get over since they are writing tomes on the subject.

Hey. I'm just sayin.

In response to to the thread topic, I believe that it is a good thing when a writer can use words other than the most offensive ones in the English vocabulary to write their stories. It's not about what people use in real life because, well, in case it wasn't mentioned, this is fiction. People are looking for an escape, not a reflection. Our writing should be about believability, not realism. Those are two separate things.

If you haven't guessed it by now, I don't like profanity. I despise it. I actually wrote a blog post about it at my website. And, wouldn't you know it, the people I hang around don't like it either. There are actually people, and quite a few of them, who dislike and don't use that kind of language. Huh. Who would've thunk it?

As a writer, profanity devolves the story and doesn't do much for the author's reputation. I think it's lazy, below subpar writing. All the words we have to express ourselves in the English language and all we can think of are the most offensive, vile and vulgar words to express ourselves. Says more about the human condition than it does about writing.

I find it interesting that of all the entertainment mediums we have—video, games, and music—books have no rating system. Always wondered about that.

Everyone has their thoughts about these things. I'm sure I just offended someone with mine. Such is life. I don't sweat it it. It is what it is.

Thanks for your indulgence.

[G.G.]

I don't mind with or without swear words, if or when those words are well used, but when they are used to double the word count, that's another story.

I remember watching gangster movies where the actors couldn't say two sentences without the f-bomb. It seemed that all I could hear were those words. The story went over my head...along with the movie. Then again, I watched the TV show Spartacus where they swear all the time and, I don't know, it fit with the show. Sure, I noticed them, but I didn't mind.

I guess the idea is that it has to fit with the books and the characters.

[Dwayne]

Easton wrote: "I'm sure I just offended someone with mine."

Are you out to offend? If so, why?

I find that people that get offended easily are often the same people looking for reasons to be offended. I'm not easily offended by anything. I do, however, find much of your comment and comments by others that are against profanity a bit... baffling.

You said, "I believe that it is a good thing when a writer can use words other than the most offensive ones in the English vocabulary to write their stories." The problem I have with this is, who is to say what words are the most offensive? If a word offends you, does that make it offensive to all?

"It's not about what people use in real life because, well, in case it wasn't mentioned, this is fiction. People are looking for an escape, not a reflection. Our writing should be about believability, not realism. Those are two separate things." I'm not following the point of this being "fiction". Because it's "fiction", certain words should not be allowed? Certain ideas should not be followed upon? Some read for escape, but escape can mean different things to different people. You seem to have a narrow idea of what readers look for. And by saying, "Our writing should be..." you are assuming all writers must write the same way. Bullboogers.

"If you haven't guessed it by now, I don't like profanity. I despise it." That's fine. That's you. I can respect that. But, it is just as silly for you to suggest that all writers must do away with profanity as it would be for me to suggest all writers must use profanity.

"As a writer, profanity devolves the story..." I see a lot of claims like this in this thread, but no explanation of HOW a story is "devolved" by profanity.

"I think it's lazy, below subpar writing." Again. Why is it "lazy"? Why is it "subpar"? I don't mind that some people don't like profanity, but people keep saying things like this without explaining how they came up with these notions. It feels like passive-aggressive bullying. Now, some of my writing does not contain profanity. I don't have a problem with those that don't use it. But, what if I were to say, "Writers that don't use profanity are soft and cowardly"? Wouldn't you feel a little irritated by such ridiculous broad-brushing?

So, if we do away with all profanity in all writing because some people don't like it, what's next? No more sex scenes? No more crime? No more acts of brutality? We should stop referencing anything political or religious as it might offend someone. Maybe stop assigning race, gender, sexual preference or age to characters because, you know, we don't want to offend bigoted people by writing about the kind of people they hate. Seriously, if we were all to start censoring ourselves, where do we stop?

[G.G.]

Dwayne wrote: "So, if we do away with all profanity in all writing because some people don't like it, what's next? No more sex scenes? No more crime? No more acts of brutality? We should stop referencing anything political or religious as it might offend someone. Maybe stop assigning race, gender, sexual preference or age to characters because, you know, we don't want to offend bigoted people by writing about the kind of people they hate. Seriously, if we were all to start censoring ourselves, where do we stop?
..."

The thing is, there should be books for every taste, and authors should not alter their style to please everyone. However, if you're using cuss words by the bucket, I think a warning would be advised. I'd say the same for erotica, and extreme violence. On the other hand, if it's sporadic, and well placed, I think it should be at the author's discretion.

We just need to remember we don't want to offend readers and the best prevention is to warn them in advance. They pay for the book. It's their time they waste on that same book if they were misled. Don't come around and cry if you get a bad review for those reasons when it could be avoided with a few warnings.

Last year or so, I won a book on GR. I was like, "Great, a book about angels!" The blurb had no mention at all that it was a m/m erotica story. You can imagine my surprise. I didn't mind. I read it and liked it. However, I can only imagine if a YA would decide to read it thinking it was a normal angel story. I mean...this was definitely not YA material. A simple warning could prevent headaches and heartaches, not to say a possible heart attack. :P

[Bruce]

I think this all relates to the question who or what is the book written for. Many books, particularly those that attempt to control the perceptions of the reader, appear to me to be written by the author for the author. Other books appear to be written to a specific audience either because the author wants to sell a lot of books--I always suspect books with lots of swearing and graphic sex-- or because the author is trying to communicate and idea or image to an audience who will appreciate it--swearing or not swearing--. There are also authors who are trying to write piece of art. All these motives will effect the use of swearing, politics, sex, religion,etc.

[Dwayne]

G.G. wrote: "Words of wisdom, as usual."

I agree. I read books that are squeaky clean and some that are quite raunchy. I write, more or less, the same way. There is a place for all kinds of stories. There are readers that want soft, sentimental and sweet stories and there are readers that want something some would call vulgar.

I've only had one complaint about the content in one of my stories. Someone complained that it wasn't appropriate for children, even though I never claimed it was written for children. If I start getting a lot of complaints, I might consider warnings on some of the harsher works. At this point, I feel everything that might offend some is there for a reason and not just tossed in for "shock value" or because I lack the imagination to come up with a better word. The right word is, simply, the right word.

[Groovy]

In line with Easton, I guess by now everyone here has come to realize I, too, HATE, vulgar language. It does say more about the human condition than writing. The fact that I feel this way makes me more creative when I write about rough, angry characters without the constant flow of profanity. It makes me think how to get their personality across without throwing the easy F-bombs in every other sentence.

Profanity is what it implies, it's vulgar. And if a writer or movie uses them in every sentence, I close the book or turn the movie off. One or two profane words I can deal with, I'm not going to go running and pulling my hair out just because I hear people cussing. I just choose not to be a part of it.

This is America. And everything that comes out of our mouths is "free speech" and our right. There are people that embrace such words, express themselves with such words, and judge life by such words--and that's their right. We're not going to change one another's mind. I think we should all shake hands and agree to disagree. **I'm holding my hand out so shake it**

But we can choose what types of books to read, and movies to watch. And I think it's a good idea to have a rating system for that when it comes to books.

Amen and have a good day dag-nabbit:)

[[deleted user]]

While we're on the subject of profanity, I decided to open an Amazon-UK account so that I could upload a picture and a bio. They flagged "bad-ass" and wouldn't let me use it. Really? Bad-ass? In the UK?

Surprised the "heck" out of me.

[Easton]

Dwayne wrote: "Easton wrote: "I'm sure I just offended someone with mine."

Are you out to offend? If so, why?

Wow. Talk about taking my whole post out of context and not simply understanding what's been written. Let me respond as you have:

Dwayne wrote: The problem I have with this is, who is to say what words are the most offensive? If a word offends you, does that make it offensive to all?

The simple answer to this—because it really is another subject on its own—is a common moral compass. I think that most people know what profanity is and what it isn't. And again. I think I've defined what I'm talking about is profanity, not just random words. Now, if you don't know the difference, I can't help you and the conversation is over before it's begun. But you seem to have a sense of what it is yourself because you've stated:

Dwayne wrote: I read books that are squeaky clean and some that are quite raunchy.

By that statement you're saying there's a distinction and that we can tell what that is when we read it.

Dwayne wrote: But, it is just as silly for you to suggest that all writers must do away with profanity as it would be for me to suggest all writers must use profanity.

Not once did I say that. I didn't even suggest it. It's not even implied. I gave an opinion. You interpreted what I said incorrectly because...well...you were offended by what I said. Speaking of which:

Dwayne wrote: Are you out to offend? If so, why?

To ask that question just seems like that passive-aggressive response you were just talking about. However, to explain, when these kinds of subjects get started on threads, someone is always offended. Always. And since I'm not PC, nor do I try to be, I knew I may have offended someone though I don't think I was rude about (being offended is one thing. Being rude is another). That may be up for debate.

What I think is funny is that the person who posted before me (who has since deleted their post) was rude and obnoxious in their post but I guess since he agrees with your side of things, it's O.K. Ahh. Bias. I get it.

Forgive my sardonic tone. You may not have seen the post. There are plenty others on this thread though. I'm just sayin.

Dwayne wrote: But, what if I were to say, "Writers that don't use profanity are soft and cowardly"? Wouldn't you feel a little irritated by such ridiculous broad-brushing?

Nope. Why would I be irritated by someone I don't know who says something that I know is incorrect when I can present a lucid argument that goes against it? But I get what you're saying by your insinuation. It's wrong. It's error. It's simply ain't so. But I get it.

Dwayne wrote: So, if we do away with all profanity in all writing because some people don't like it, what's next? No more sex scenes? No more crime? No more acts of brutality? We should stop referencing anything political or religious as it might offend someone. Maybe stop assigning race, gender, sexual preference or age to characters because, you know, we don't want to offend bigoted people by writing about the kind of people they hate. Seriously, if we were all to start censoring ourselves, where do we stop?

Good grief. Someone needs a hug. A pat on the back. Some cookies and milk. Something.

You're taking this way out of proportion. I gave my opinion. That's all. I didn't say all books needed to have no profanity. You're speculative insinuations are just dead wrong and kind of bellicose and whiny to be honest. Again, my opinion.

I did mention a ratings system. To be sure, I do wish we had that. People will be people which means writers will be writers. They will write what they want to write. I show my dislike my not buying the stuff. Just wish I had a heads up before I plunk down money or open up the book. Saves on my time which is life that I don't want to waste on that kind of material.

It's quite apparent that we disagree on this. That's cool. I have no issue there. Just don't take my words out of context and try to say that they say something that they are not. That is irritating.

[Bruce]

A question particularly,but not exclusively, for those who tend to be put off by swearing. Is it more of a putoff if it is main character whom you are supposed to like? Is it acceptable in an unsympathetic character?

[Sarah]

Lilo wrote: "K.P. wrote: "it's like having to put on the back saying this book is (genre) about (overall plot) and also has (coarse language, sex, violence)."

I have to say that I wish more authors would do th..."

Shutting the bedroom door is extremely irritating, and unbelievable when the meeting of two people leads to a relationship/marriage. I've just read a really good book that would be a five star but for that: it leaves out so much insight into everything that follows

[K.P.]

easton, dude, deep breath and calm down. no need to take offense (he was just answering your post with equally valid questions and points).
anyways, we can't see tone or read your thoughts. on the surface it *appears* you have your nose up on the use of profanity, looking down on those who do as uncouth and lesser than, and too dim to crack open a theseaurus to express emotion without using shortcuts. and that's okay too. :D

writing is an art, a very subjective one. we all want polite society where everything is cool and there is that one foolish squeaky wheel that wants to vomit on everything with disharmony because they very well can. vulgarity is an agreed upon set of parameters. whether defined by speech or acts, the majority will find it distasteful, the rebels use it to shake up the status quo on purpose and then you have those who dont give a flying... out of chaos comes order. without order, chaos.

and dwayne, you chill too. i know - how dare this pompous dude charge in and dictate how art should be? who comes up with these rules and restrictions anyway? why should artists concern themselves to police what may be deemed creative like something such as that could be dangerous? it's a scary thought though, that maybe folks like them (there are quite a bit obviously) *could be right*.
why would seemingly useless letters, formed to these words, have the greatest impact? it makes folks whinge, cringe, angry, upset, fearful, disgusted, the whole nine. it makes folks *feel* and emotion is a powerful controlling thing.

i wouldn't be quick to call the moralistic group a bunch of clowns. in their own way, maybe they're warning the sheer excessive use is starting to lose their impact. if what was once considered vulgar becomes too common - normal even, then those swears don't mean anything anymore and lose their fiery impact. we dont want to become unfeeling emotionless robots void of any heart. that would be a very boring place to live.
im for moderation - use where needed and not "just because", but because i'm a lazy troublemaker, i wont warn the reader about the potential vulgar stuff inside. expect the unexpected heh heh >:D

this has been a very interesting discussion yall. :) please keep it up

[K.P.]

sarah you have a good point. sex scenes can be important, when written well. im sure folks go through myriad of emotions while getting freaky. (otherwise love songs wouldnt exist). it's still the point of shock value, of getting the pulse racing and mildly hot and bothered - but it's just using imagery to get a physical reaction, which is dull in itself.
so those who use the shut the bedroom door with implications are losing out on major developments that could connect two characters on a more deeper level - sweaty exercise aside.
sex scenes are vulgar - they're the most raw passionate vulnerable place one can find themselves in, losing a part of your soul in the process and giving it away this other who wont ever give it back. maybe they'll destroy it, maybe they'll care for it, who knows. and those moral types who hate seeing those scenes (or merely get uncomfortable) are reacting because it's hit a raw nerve. they're reminded when they lost a piece of themselves and their rant against it (though misguided) is an underlying subconscious effort to protect everyone else from experiencing that. cause that ish hurts.

however erotic scenes, like profanity, can be overdone or misused. some read like a porn with a (thin) plot, others are a plot with (varying degrees of) porn. however, it's the skilled artist, who can use these erotic scenes well as another method of character development i find extremely rare. i hadnt come across any books like that yet because i dont actively look - but im sure someone has...

i personally dont write sex scenes and use the behind the door shortcut not because im prudish - i just dont have a good experience and doubt my skill to be convincing... sex is the ultimate art form and my piddly middling skills at attempting to bring a reader into that glimpse of ecstatic awesomeness would sully the whole thing.

[Easton]

K.P. wrote: "easton, dude, deep breath and calm down. no need to take offense (he was just answering your post with equally valid questions and points).

Well now. The self-proclaimed voice of moderation. Alrighty then. On with my response.

If I may be so bold...I have this thing about people I don't know calling me "dude". It's a pet peeve. Since you don't know me and we're not on that level (otherwise you wouldn't have called me "dude"), my name will suffice please, if you don't mind.

K.P. said: we can't see tone or read your thoughts

Right. So...uh...why tell me to calm down? That, my friend, is called a contradiction. Since you can't see my face or know my expression (and I'm sure if that were the case you really would be offended. That's a jibe at me more than you), this statement is pretty vapid and useless.

K.P. Said: on the surface it *appears* you have your nose up on the use of profanity, looking down on those who do as uncouth and lesser than, and too dim to crack open a theseaurus to express emotion without using shortcuts.

Well, appearances can be deceiving. Then again...

All kidding aside, I do have my nose up on the use of profanity (Awe! Shock! Just so you know, that easily just rolled off the top of the mind). I look down on its use. My position on that is firm. I have no regrets about that. Now, if you take it personal because you don't like my firm stance, well, as poet Flava Flave was fond of saying in the 90s, "I can't do nuthin for ya man."

K.P. said: writing is an art, a very subjective one

Is that so? Huh. Learn something new everyday.

K.P. said: out of chaos comes order. without order, chaos.

Goodness. A proper response to this needs another thread so I'll leave it alone except to say...uh...not really.

K.P. said: and dwayne, you chill too

Ahhhhaah! You got in trouble!

K.P. said: how dare this pompous dude charge in and dictate how art should be?

That's right! Uh...wait. Did you just go to the lowest level of conflict and call me a derogatory name trying to veil it as some kind of thought because you're all out of argument? I don't know. I mean it appears like that.

Methinks you misunderstand. My opinion is just that, my opinion. You're not going to change my mind because you don't want to choose a side on this. I'm not trying to change yours. I'm just stating how I see it. Got at least one person that sees where I'm coming from so I'm not completely crazy. That's debatable I suppose.

K.P. said: why would seemingly useless letters, formed to these words, have the greatest impact? it makes folks whinge, cringe, angry, upset, fearful, disgusted, the whole nine.

I haven't used one profane word and yet I get the most opposition because...well, because I have a position and I state it without reservations. Though I'm speculating, I don't think that is far from the truth. It's not popular so, I get verbal lashings from the other side and they start calling me names like pompous and moralistic (obviously meant to denigrate though the word itself is not offensive). That's cool. I get it. But I have to ask the question, who really is emotional here? I mean it appears that the pot is calling the kettle black.

I'm just sayin.

Thanks for the exchange. Excelsior!

[Dwayne]

Easton wrote: "Stuff"

You spoke about "our writing", as if all writers should follow the same direction. If you're not referring to all writers in your post, why do you call it "our writing"?

Thank you for avoiding explaining why you feel profanity makes writing "sub-par" or "lazy".

And, yes, I do find it ironic and hilarious that you object to some language by saying it is "offensive", yet your closing line shows you have no issue with being offensive yourself.

"What I think is funny is that the person who posted before me (who has since deleted their post) was rude and obnoxious in their post but I guess since he agrees with your side of things, it's O.K. Ahh. Bias. I get it." - Bias against whom? What post are you talking about? What am I supposed to do with a deleted post that I can't see?

"I think that most people know what profanity is and what it isn't." - Actually, no. I know what I consider profanity. I know what is fairly commonly thought to be profanity. I don't know what you feel is profane. Some consider "damn" a profane word, some do not. Some even think "heck" is profane. So, you can take a "oh, good grief you need a hug" attitude if you can't discuss this seriously. That's fine.

And I'm sorry you feel I'm taking your words out of context. You could try to explain yourself a little clearer. Mainly, it bothers me when I see writers cutting down other writers on such trivial things a choice of words. If you don't like profanity, fine. But, to broad-brush those that use profanity as "lazy" or "subpar" is a bit elitist.

It's not your choice not to use profanity that bothers me. It is your attitude toward other writers.

[Dwayne]

Groovy wrote: "The fact that I feel this way makes me more creative..."

Maybe, since Easton danced around my questions, you can explain. How is not using profanity more "creative"? Do you honestly believe this? Not using it is your choice and that's fine, but it does not make you more creative.

[Easton]

Dwayne wrote: Maybe, since Easton danced around my questions, you can explain.

I danced around your questions? No I did not. You simply don't want to hear what I'm saying or just can't grasp it. I answered it in depth. If you can't grasp what I'm saying, that would most definitely not be my problem.

You have a way of putting words into people's mouths that they didn't say. I never even insinuated the statement you're talking about here. You need to learn the basics of communication and interpretation, my friend. Sorely lacking.

[Bruce]

Sarah, what do you men by closing the bedroom door? Do you mean that if a book doesn't describe explicit sex you can't empathize a relationship that leads to say marriage? In my real life I empathize lots of relationships between my friends. They do truly love each other and I know it, can feel it. I do not see or experience their sexual interaction.

[Dwayne]

Easton wrote: "You simply don't want to hear what I'm saying or just can't grasp it."

I have asked, twice, how does profanity make writing subpar? How does it make it "lazy"? How does it make it "devolve"? These are the things you don't seem to want to answer. You don't need to continue being condescending. I'm trying to understand your point of view.

[Bruce]

If books were rated on amount of profanity or vulgarity, who does the rating? It would sure mean something different if Groovy or Dwayne or Eaton said it. I would surely have to see one of your massages to be able to interpret the rating. I believe Sarah would find some sexual content necessary that I would find intrusive or boring. How would you interpret our ratings? But I agree with Groovy, such ratings would be great if there was a way to do them.

[K.P.]

jeez easton stop being such a stiff and lighten up. im casual with everyone. anyways, i was making generalizations and in no meant to indirectly insult you. but if you take everything so personally, maybe more self reflection is in order.
you're not making any case for your argument, using your general feelings as some kind of fact. why do you think the use of profanity smacks of lazy writing? what is it that irks that badly over it.... what you have responded far just your come across as very pretentious. who decides what is considered vulgar anyway? you arent a huge authority, so why get so huffy over it? i bet you dont read urban literature or beat writing or anything mind expanding. if you want to live in a starchy bubble, fine but the world is a dirty filthy place. instead of giving thinly veiled insults masking behind general dialogue, just get to the heart of the matter.

[K.P.]

apparently this easton dude has all the answers and the rest of us unouth dimwitted vulgar knuckledraggers are too retarded to see his elite enlightened righteous views. >_>

[Dwayne]

Bruce wrote: "But I agree with Groovy, such ratings would be great if there was a way to do them."

Depends on who is doing the rating. I don't want a rating system that is enforced. I think they're needless, pointed and dated on movies and music. If a rating system is ever in place for writers, I want to be the one to rate my books, or choose not to. It feels like another system trying to tell people how and what to think. I don't care for that.

[K.P.]

i feel ya dwayne. i shudder at the mere thought of restrictions. but out that comes creativity. and out of that the will to kick down barriers and crap all over established rules. there's anarchy for the sake of effin ish up and there's the anarchy that gets people talking feeling and thinking. i hate dull emotionless robots. once they get a foothold into dictating whats good or bad for us, what to feel or think, then its the end of the of free thinking society as we know it...

[Dwayne]

K.P. wrote: "once they get a foothold into dictating whats good or bad for us, what to feel or think, then its the end of the of free thinking society as we know it..."

Exactly. I don't mind a ratings system, as long as it's not required and if I can choose what rating to put on my books, not leave it up to someone who may have a different set of morals or may not clearly understand or agree with my work. I could, for instance, have a rape scene in a story and mean it as a display of cruelty toward women, a symbol of the strong oppressing the weak, etc. But, someone else might simply see it as "obscene".

Some argue that ratings systems are needed so children won't see, hear or read certain materials. It should not be up to us, as authors, to monitor what other people's children are exposed to. Some kids like to get hold of CDs with warnings or get hold of R rated movies. Perhaps if I started warning that some of my stories have violence, drugs or swearing, I might see an upsurge of ten-year-olds buying my stuff.

But, I won't feel good about it.

[Easton]

K.P. wrote: "jeez easton stop being such a stiff and lighten up.

Aaaannnnd we're back at the lowest level of conflict by name calling. Bravo. I'm a stiff now. You can't simply respect my wishes and say, "Didn't mean to offend." You simply make an excuse and continue to disparage me by telling me what to do like I'm your stepchild. Alrighty then.

K.P. said: i was making generalizations and in no meant to indirectly insult you.

Just so we're clear this time, calling me a stiff is not a generalization nor indirect. It's specific and direct.

K.P. said: but if you take everything so personally maybe more self reflection is in order.

For someone who just said that we can't tell thoughts and expression from our writing, it appears is if you've interpreted every thought and expression of what I wrote and responded with that in mind.

K.P. wrote: you have responded far just your come across as very pretentious

I come off as very pretentious? That so? O.K. I'll give you that if you will admit that you come off as disrespectful, indifferent and dismissive. I'm wit ya then.

K.P. said: you arent a huge authority, so why get so huffy over it?

This is what I mean by not paying attention. Perfect example. And, again, you're assuming I'm huffy. I repeat from your own words, you can't know how I'm saying what I'm saying so you have no clue what my emotional state is. I thought I was being, at the most, a smart aleck and sarcastic. You interpreted that as huffy. Well, that would be wrong...again.

I never claimed to be any kind of authority. Don't know where you pulled that from. I challenge you to find that anywhere. What I did was state my opinion (this has got to be about the fifth time I've said this) definitively and confidently. Apparently, that's a problem for you. Like I said before, I can't do nuthin for ya man.

K.P. said: i bet you dont read urban literature or beat writing or anything mind expanding. if you want to live in a starchy bubble, fine

Well this is just rife with lowest level of conflict rambling. Proving my point. Not a good thing.

apparently this easton dude has all the answers and the rest of us unouth dimwitted vulgar knuckledraggers are too retarded to see his elite enlightened righteous views.

Well. That's not huffy at all.

At this point, the conversation for us is over since you interjected when no one was actually speaking to you and you've decided to devolve to the lowest level of conflict. I simply refuse to go there. Don't get upset because you came when you weren't called and you don't like what you ran into. That would be your fault. But taking responsibility for that, well, that would call for humility. I can see we're low on that today.

[Lilo]

K.P. wrote: "i personally dont write sex scenes and use the behind the door shortcut not because im prudish - i just don't have a good experience and doubt my skill to be convincing... sex is the ultimate art form and my piddly middling skills at attempting to bring a reader into that glimpse of ecstatic awesomeness would sully the whole thing. "

That's how I felt about action scenes. I've never fired a gun or gone to a martial arts class. But I sweated through it. I watched videos and learned martial art holds. Then I asked some author friends who are good at action scenes and have real life experience with weapons and martial arts to critique them. Lo an behold, they are looking pretty good now after a few revisions. I'm just saying, YOU CAN DO IT!!!! :) (if you want to)

In fact, one of my author friends pointed out that love making scenes are very much like action scenes. To be really good, you have to get the technical down, but you have to fill it with emotion and a rhythm.

[Lilo]

Easton wrote: "I haven't used one profane word and yet I get the most opposition because...well, because I have a position and I state it without reservations. Though I'm speculating, I don't think that is far from the truth. It's not popular so, I get verbal lashings from the other side and they start calling me names like pompous and moralistic (obviously meant to denigrate though the word itself is not offensive). "

Based on the poll, you are a minority. That is probably why you are getting a lot of flack. By the way, I laugh when people call me "liberal" as an insult. :) Liberal to me is the most flexible mind, willing to put aside tradition and value things on their current merit.

[K.P.]

lilo i tried watching porn and trying to get a feel of describing what i see ... aaand my squishy fun scenes are cold and clinical. i read erotica and try to copy that style but it then smacks of trying too hard. -_- so i just gave up on it. it's a skill i dont have.

and easton if your shorts are that knotted up over *my opinions* then dude find yourself a corner to sit down in while grown folks is talking you petulant crank. and who cares if i come across as indifferent and dismissive. apparently you cant have a debate without having to be always right and having the last word in. i can whip out a thesaurus and hurl high falutin backhanded insults too buddy. all im asking is the deeper meaning than the surface knee jerk reaction to the topic. both dwayne and i are still waiting for an answer you're not giving. and you might as well spell it out in neon since we arent in your head.

[Lilo]

Dwayne wrote: "Groovy wrote: "The fact that I feel this way makes me more creative..."

Maybe, since Easton danced around my questions, you can explain. How is not using profanity more "creative"? Do you honestly..."

Dwayne wrote: "Groovy wrote: "The fact that I feel this way makes me more creative..."

Maybe, since Easton danced around my questions, you can explain. How is not using profanity more "creative"? Do you honestly..."

I might be able to explain this thinking. Though I hope I don't make a bunch of people mad when I do. I'm not pro or con swearing, as I stated in the original post. I used to swear heartily as a teenager and young adult. I stopped when I became a mother. I didn't want to swear at home around my child and I couldn't swear at work. There was no moral reason for my stopping. Simply practical reasons. Plus I didn't want my five year old, flouncing around in a pretty dress, muttering "Fuck." I figured she could learn that on her own when she was older.

So the transition from swearing a lot to not swearing was rather difficult. I learned a few things. One, when you are used to swearing, in certain situations, the swear word pops to your mind more quickly and easily than any other word. I actually struggled to express myself without the swear words for a time. I realized that I used them as a crutch at times. As I let go of them, I became more articulate.

Though truly, when I stub my toe, the word "Fuck" still comes first, though I try to mutter it under my breath.

Recognizing my struggle to convert from a swearer to a non-swearer (or rarely swearing), I didn't want my daughter to go though the same thing. So I implemented the rule when she became a teenager that I didn't care if she swore with her friends, but in the house she wasn't allowed to. I told her this was so she would learn control and how to express emotions without swearing.

So, I believe that swearing has advantages and disadvantages. It is used as a stress relief by many during high emotion, and to accentuate high emotion, but it can also hinder more thorough expression. That is my personal experience.

[K.P.]

groovy and sarah are in the minority as well, but their responses arent dripping with eyeroll slowclap. and the dude wonders why folks keep arguing with him. >_>

[Micah]

Easton wrote: "I guess if some people get offended by others' opinions about disliking profanity and vulgarity then there has got to be others that find their rants, whether infantile or warranted..."

If that was aimed at me, I don't think I said I get offended by other people's opinions about disliking profanity...What I really said is people raising a stink about an author's use of profanity, as if they've committed some crime against humanity or something.

But if you're so sensitive that naughty words are going ruin your day...you probably should avoid most adult literature. Don't read war stories, for example. Don't read gangster stories or police procedurals. It's not up to authors to protect your sensibilities. You don't like it, you're going to have to police your consumption of it yourself.

[Dwayne]

Lilo wrote: "I might be able to explain this thinking. "

Thank you and I do see where you are coming from in how quickly one can swear when one is used to it, but it's not quite the same as writing. I rarely swear when I'm talking and when I do it's intentional.

I'm more interested in understanding why some think it is more creative not to swear in writing or why swearing makes writing "lazy".

[Lilo]

I'll have to let one of the people who think it is lazy answer that. I could see it as lazy if it is used a crutch, just as with speech. Other than that, I haven't the faintest idea.

[Dwayne]

Lilo wrote: "I'll have to let one of the people who think it is lazy answer that."

I'm having my doubts it will happen. I've been asking all day and so far... nada.

[Easton]

Dwayne wrote: I have asked, twice, how does profanity make writing subpar? How does it make it "lazy"? How does it make it subpar? These are the things you don't seem to want to answer. You don't need to continue being condescending. I'm trying to understand your point of view.

I'm condescending? Sarcastic, yes. Condescending? No. Explicit and unequivocal is how I see it. Can be a tad discomforting. Not trying to be purposely discomforting but that's simply what happens when you take that stance on something. Unavoidable.

Now, let me say this as best and direct as I can. I'm hoping you understand my position somewhat after this.

I think profanity devolves writing and makes it subpar because it does nothing to lift up literature but brings it down to the base level of our moral compass. It doesn't inspire or elevate the spirit or mind. It keeps us mired in the worst of who we are instead of lift us up to be the best of who we can be. You can express the reality of the world's ugliness without giving in to the ugliness.

I believe it's lazy writing because it doesn't work to expand communication to a principled level by using words that are lofty and majestic, astute and intelligent, which would take a bit of work with all the words we have in the English vocabulary. It keeps the mind low and stagnates cognitive acclivity. It's why people cringe at it, avoid it, and the reason why we're having this conversation.

Those are the reasons why. My hope is that it cleared some things up for you. I'm not sure if I explained it clearly enough but that was my fast ball. I'm out of tricks after this, so to speak.

Just as an aside, I'm not upset in the least. Not at all. I don't hate ya or think that you're less than. Goodness no. But I know what I know and I believe what I believe without reservations and subjects like this require no quarter in my eyes. Here I stand. I can do no other. Lord, help me.

[Lokki]

Easton wrote: "I think profanity devolves writing and makes it subpar because it does nothing to lift up literature but brings it down to the base level of our moral compass. It doesn't inspire or elevate the spirit or mind. It keeps us mired in the worst of who we are instead of lift us up to be the best of who we can be. You can express the reality of the world's ugliness without giving in to the ugliness. "

I think you are reading/writing different things than I (and probably others in the conversation) am. I wouldn't classify the latest UF or PNR as 'literature' meant to elevate the mind. It certainly is entertaining though and lifts the spirit and if the hero or hero drops an f-bomb, so what. I would probably swear too if a slathering *insert supernatural creature here* was trying to kill me.

[Lilo]

Bruce wrote: "A question particularly,but not exclusively, for those who tend to be put off by swearing. Is it more of a putoff if it is main character whom you are supposed to like? Is it acceptable in an unsympathetic character?"

This is an excellent question. Actually I've pondered why people view my book as being "clean" when it actually has many expletives and soft curses. Being in Urban Fantasy / Paranormal Romance, the readership is by far greater women. My main character is a woman and she doesn't say swear words. Well, she says things like "Holy cow!" "Holy smokes!" "Cripes!" "Lady of Light!" and "Great Abyss!" The last two swears relates to the world they live in.

Some of the male characters do swear more, but still not the harshest of words. (Yet)

So I speculate that my female readers identify with the main character more and those readers who don't swear are relieved when my main character doesn't swear. I can understand this. If they want to admire my main character, it might be hard to do if they hated swearing.

So my theory is that it is far more important what your main character does than any other character.

Plus, let's be logical, you are with your main character more than any other. So a cursing main character means a lot of the book is filled with cursing. Secondary characters aren't seen as much. So if they swear, naturally the volume in the book is less.

[K.P.]

that's the thing, lilo. the assumption that if one swears, one must be inarticulate and by extension, an uneducated fool.

i knew this one dude i loved to hate because he came from a super religious family who dint swear (not even mild blue ones) and were highly educated. he didnt know i swore at all because depending on who i was with, i'd adjust my speech pattern according to the situation. so when some ninny hit me unexpectedly with a brick rolling by on the bus, i dropped the major f bomb expressing all these emotions at once (shock, anger, fear, pain). and my frienemy accused me of being a fake idiot.

when we argued, it was never loud (he didnt yell, he just lowered his voice) and it was like watching some weird rap battle with yo momma snaps (but instead of yo momma, it was the most burning barbed jiving insults we could come up with, trying to top the last line, in the midst of debating whatever issue we were trying to contest).

only my close friends know i get sailor and some associates know i drop blue streaks when appropriate, while everyone else (coworkers, strangers, my neighbors etc) think im super nice polite and proper (especially the church ladies who keep bugging me to join their crew).

it's all about being adaptable. but dont kill yourself on maintaining that performance. sure, you dont curse around children (they pick up EVERYTHING) and your elders (who wont hesitate to box your ears) and uber religious types (profanity harshes mellow vibes yo). you just grind your teeth and pontificate with something witty, because that concentrated effort requires ignoring whats causing you whatever negative emotion that makes you want to curse it out of existence in the first place. lolz

[Easton]

Lilo wrote: "Based on the poll, you are a minority. That is probably why you are getting a lot of flack."

In more ways than you know. But I figured as much. I'm thick-skinned though. I can take it. :-)

I think that there's a misconception that someone who I don't know who has absolutely no bearing on my life whatsoever can actually say some derogatory things about me online and make me care. Just not going to happen.

[Lilo]

K.P. wrote: "that's the thing, lilo. the assumption that if one swears, one must be inarticulate and by extension, an uneducated fool.

i knew this one dude i loved to hate because he came from a super religio..."

I certainly don't think that someone who swears is an idiot or an uneducated fool. I was neither when I swore and I am neither now. If you can ride both sides of the fence then you are not hindered by swearing. If you can't, then you are. If you think you can, but you have never tried, then I'd say you have to try to see how easy or hard it is. :)