The Debate Club discussion
: ̗̀➛ Ethics and Education
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•✩• What is Feminism, and is it Good?
now, i understand if we hate on ‘modern day feminism’, or when women just hate on men, but feminism at its core is not bad in the slightest.
sieraqvt🇻🇳 semi-ia (school) wrote: "now, i understand if we hate on ‘modern day feminism’, or when women just hate on men, but feminism at its core is not bad in the slightest."exactly. modern day feminism, if it has devolved into misandry, then that is not good, but like siera said, feminism as an ideal and at its core is not bad
sieraqvt🇻🇳 semi-ia (school) wrote: "we forget that feminism isn’t just a legal issue, women are constantly looked down upon and treated as less than. one really disturbing example of this is when china had their one-child policy, whe..."Well said!
sieraqvt🇻🇳 semi-ia (school) wrote: "we forget that feminism isn’t just a legal issue, women are constantly looked down upon and treated as less than. one really disturbing example of this is when china had their one-child policy, whe..."okay two points
1. if you’re going to hate on them for killing off their child, which im in total agreement with, i think thats a sickening thing to do, isn’t it the same as having an abortion. that child could’ve been a girl, and that would be going against the rights you are fighting for. not to mention it is just as sickening of a thing, assuming you haven’t seen one.
2. there are historical times where the son of a family was ordered to be executed, but you dont see them fighting for those rights. again, both things are terrible, but i dont see that as a good reasoning for feminism when it was both sides
oh and we brought up religion? religion some places (specifically some predominantly muslim countries) is used to restrict women even more. iran has mandatory veiling, where women must be covered head, hair, and neck with loose modest clothing. in 2023, they implemented even stricter laws with surveillance to catch women who were unveiled, and harsh punishments that happened as a result of unveiling, even for girls as young as 12. it’s implementation is paused right now, but it’s still insane that that is even a possibility for women in other countries. should we not use feminism to fight back? you’re telling me that this isn’t about gender, and thinking of women as things that need to be controlled? (no shade to islam and muslims AT ALL. it’s disgusting to use religion to justify this.)
1. this isn’t about abortion, but that child was ALIVE, and they weren’t being killed because the mother couldn’t carry or support them. they were being killed because the baby wasn’t the specific gender that the parents wanted. 2. yes, arranged marriage happens to boys as well, but it happens A LOT more to women.
sieraqvt🇻🇳 semi-ia (school) wrote: "oh and we brought up religion? religion some places (specifically some predominantly muslim countries) is used to restrict women even more. iran has mandatory veiling, where women must be covered h..."i didnt mention their religion, im talking about mine. completely different actually
religion in general. women have also (unfortunately) been made to submit to their husbands and treated as less than in the name of God.
and again with 2. why are we mentioning historical times? this is about things that are happening with restricting women’s rights TODAY. NOW, these things are happening to women as we speak.
1. its actually similar because again, it is alive2. im not talking about arranged marriage, which yes is also an example, im talking about historical times that they killed off every boy
is the child being aborted because the parents don’t want a girl? is the child being aborted and then the parents go and have another child immediately after?
calista wrote: "1. its actually similar because again, it is alive2. im not talking about arranged marriage, which yes is also an example, im talking about historical times that they killed off every boy"
to be honest, I did not know that back in history they did that. would you mind linking a site? thanks
sieraqvt🇻🇳 semi-ia (school) wrote: "oh and we brought up religion? religion some places (specifically some predominantly muslim countries) is used to restrict women even more. iran has mandatory veiling, where women must be covered h..."THIS! I’m a Muslim and I’m forced to cover myself from head to toe. And it’s sufficating . It’s said that you have to wear it for god but I don’t feel like I’m covering myself for god I feel like I’m doing it to please my family and if I don’t wear my veil my family would probably punish me like really badly. My cousin’s family is really strict on this and one time she wore pants and her dad beated her so bad it was horrible.
(the bible mentioned the first born sons having to be killed or smth right? omg sunday school beat that into my head 😭)
Melody ౨ৎ wrote: "sieraqvt🇻🇳 semi-ia (school) wrote: "oh and we brought up religion? religion some places (specifically some predominantly muslim countries) is used to restrict women even more. iran has mandatory ve..."The fact that woman are getting abused like this because of religion is horrible so forgive me if I don’t believe a word that’s said in the holy books.
you cant put submitting to their husbands and being mistreating in the same category. of course the husband shouldn’t abuse his power, or make the wife ask for permission for everything, but there will always be a leader among a household. its just what will happen. and men were created to be that. it is widely known, and cant be scientifically changed, and was studied by Harvard, that women are more compassionate and men are more arrogant in a good way. men couldn’t never live wthout women and women could never live without men. you need both in this world, i strongly believe that. and one of the feminists in the world actually agree with that, Gloria Steinman. but yes, God DID create men to be leaders, and women to be by their sides, but that doesnt mean they should never be there own person or anything, dont take that out of contextactually there are a lot of people who would get an abortion, have sex yet again, and have an abortion again. an actually high percentage. maybe they aren’t having an abortion bc they wanted a boy, but both is murder and wrong and that child deserved a right to their life, no matter what. both are very sickening things to see and watch
alright (i disagree, but i also agree with some of the things you said. getting an abortion just for that is so so wrong. but i think women should be allowed to do with they want with their bodies…) but that doesn’t have anything to do with feminism and gender, and this isn’t a topic about abortion.
sieraqvt🇻🇳 semi-ia (school) wrote: "alright (i disagree, but i also agree with some of the things you said. getting an abortion just for that is so so wrong. but i think women should be allowed to do with they want with their bodies…..."yes i think at the end of the day, it is their choice, even if i strongly disagree, but actually feminism has recently focused on abortion, which is why i’ve brought it up, but i could just talk ab it in the other topic, sorry ab that!
oh no problem it’s ok 😭! it’s just that when people talk about feminism they only ever talk about abortion, and i wish we would acknowledge that feminism is more than that. there’s women facing problems and oppression that has nothing to do with an abortion. (though women in many third world countries don’t have access to healthcare at all.)
Mod
A movement for women to have equal right to men.
Feminism as a movement is just that. Feminism isn’t about controlling men, that’s..."
Men can get a vasectomy at age 16 (with parental approval) and in most clinics women must be 21 and have at least one child or their husbands approval.
Equal pay, in many countries women are paid substantially less than men.
Reproductive rights, in a lot of countries women can’t buy contraceptives on their own.
Rape and domestic abuse rights, even in America it’s extremely difficult for rapists to get a sentence long enough for a woman to move away, and most go unreported because of backlash women receive.
Women are often not given respect, aka catcalling, when men say a woman should stay in the kitchen, when men say a woman shouldn’t be president/leaders, when they say a woman ‘slept to the top’.
No not all of these are exclusive to America but American women still face sexism and it needs to be addressed, this is why we have feminism.
agreed, i was more debating with modern feminism, because early feminism which is what i think your are standing more for, which is based on just equal rights and sex trafficking, which i agree with.
Mod
Highly disagree. There’s evidence to suggest women could be better leaders.
https://inpowercoaching.com/women-bet....
Men are actually often more emotional, which results in them being more likely to take drastic measures when upset, such as physical abuse, murder, and suicide. When you check resources it shows men commit mor wood these things than women.
Mod
YES THIS!!
Mod
I don’t think ‘modern feminism’ has changed I think you are confusing it with misandrist women… there’s no community trying to overtake men.
i think be modern feminism she means feminism that’s really just hating on men 😭 which i agree, does exist, but we shouldn’t generalize that with real feminism
Mod
Yeah. I keep saying this- what she is thinking of is called misandry, the hating or want to overpower men by women.
okokok so that’s settled, how do you feel about real feminism then? like currently, not just in the past.
yes, which is what i mean. it’s not real feminism. and i know that’s not what you guys mean, but it is what most people today are making feminism which is what i meant by modern feminism, abortion included, but not with rape and incest. and i still think we should focus on our country and the crimes in it before other countries, but also still sending support to them if that makes sense. also i don’t just mean hating men, which i know is misandry, but women overpowering men. cause most don’t hate them, but think women should come first which i think it should be equal
i think we should have equal rights and get rid of human trafficking
but making women and men equal also means saying that men are not better than women, not more capable or better leaders than women. how do we feel about that? (excluding what the bible says about women and their role ofc.)
i think it just depends on the role of leadership. i think you need both for different jobs which is why we have both
women can work the same jobs as men though? idk if that’s what you were saying or not, that women and men have different roles in life
yes and no. depends on the job but i think so
Mod
women have a lot of the same LEGAL RIGHTS in the UNITED STATES. women lack a lot of really important rights in other countries, and that absolutely does matter. and in america, women are still often below men. not legally, but socially. employers often see women as less capable, or juries see them as less believable. and on sexual harassment, the statistics are absolutely wild.
EIGTHY ONE PERCENT of women have reported sexual harrassment in their lifetime. that literally means that if you have a group of five women, only one of them has been safe from sexual violence. you can count to 74, and another person will have been attacked. yet, 98% of perpetrators walk free. how is this not concerning?
sources:
https://rainn.org/get-informed/facts-...
https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics
also: just because in the us women no longer face direct oppression from the law, does not mean they are societally equal to men. the number of mysoginistic comments i hear daily is astounding. it's insane how many times people see women as below men. my friend's mom is literally paid less than the man who works under her. misogyny is real. it's not something we left behind in the 70s. it's real.
Mod
what do you mean? i'm genuinely curious. i do not see how being a man or a woman affects your competency at any role. even if it's things like the military or whatever. as long as someone can meet specific standards of performance, any other details shouldn't matter, especially whether they are a man or a woman.
Mod
There’s this saying, not all men, but all women. Not all men are bad, but all women have had a bad experience with a man. I’ve met creepy men at work. I’ve had a man literally try to guess wha rocker bra I had on. I’ve had men just ask me personal information and ge tpissed when I don’t give it to them. Where I work my coworkers are all women, and we are always on watch. There are two teenagers, me and one other girl, and the adults typically move us away from grown men who are trying to get us away from the rest of the women. It’s predatory. It’s sexist. It’s not okay and that’s some of the things feminists fight for and some of the things every woman has experienced.
i dont think i know a single women who hasnt had a bad experience w a man. when i was 13 at the mall w my friends, an 18 yo tried to do uh something. this is one of the many times ts happened.
@tessie YES! not ALL men do it but basically ALL women experience it.
Mod
Yeah me neither 😭 I've had guys follow me around and stare at me
do you have to be a feminist to fight against sexual abuse?
Mod
No!
But there is so much more to fight for that makes you a feminist. In my opinion, even though I think abortion should be legal, you don’t have to agree with that to be a feminist.
You can be a feminist who fights for rights against sexual assault, sexual harassment, domestic violence against men and women, equal pay, etc., without agreeing on abortion because those things are just as important and we need all the support possible.
I also think that feminists can and should fight for men too when it comes to rape and violent assaults etc because we are looking for EQUAL rights, and it’s been stated in another debate that we can’t have equal rights if we only focus on one gender.
hmm interestingthere just seems to be a million different interpretations of feminism
Mod
there just seems to be a million different interpretations of feminism"
that's true XD
although i'd say the only real feminists are those who're calling out injustices, not creating their own
Mod
message 96:
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sofi🎀🧸 jinu’s version~autumn vibes🧸
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everyone should be a feminist. if you are not a feminist, you are saying women, because we do not have sensitive horny ass dicks, are weaker than men. are dumber. are not allowed basic human rights. someone argue w me bc i want to fight
message 97:
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sofi🎀🧸 jinu’s version~autumn vibes🧸
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feminism is simply right for women. and the fact that it needs to exist is ridiculous. how i wish god was written as a woman (im sure she is) because we have had no rights for thousands of years. feminism is equality. if u don’t stand for equality i don’t get u.
Mod
feminism depends. some feminists say that women are better than men.
some feminists say that they just want human rights for women too.
and if its "good or not" depends on your views, personally i am a feminist, probably due to the fact im a enby lesbian and respect people, but thats beside the point :3
Mod
what do you mean? i'm genuinely curious. i do not see how being a man or a woman affects your competency at any role. even if it's th..."
Not saying women can't do the same jobs as men, but men are physically stronger so in jobs where strength is required it would be easier for a man to do it. Of course a woman can be strong but literally men are physically stronger, but if a woman qualifies for it I think she should get that job, but only if she qualifies not just because she's a woman. And for military I think women should be in military but they are at higher risks of getting sexually assaulted and if they are captured by the enemy they can be tortured in ways a man can't, so for a woman to be in the military is very dangerous. This isn't because women aren't qualified but sadly that's the way some men are, they think women are tools and can only be used for their own pleasure. Yes I think a women can do any job but only if she is qualified. For example when the first assassination attempt on Trump happened you could see 2 men I think and 1 woman surrounding him to protect him. The woman was so small that she was barely able to protect him and if the shooter wanted to shoot again he probably could have since Trump was still mostly visible. In times like these a man is more fit for the job. Again not saying women can't do these jobs but only if they are physically able. People shouldn't hire a woman just to hire a woman without checking to see if she's qualified.
this ^^