Week 2 — Books 2 & 3

[Susan]

La_mariane wrote: ".I wish my copy of the book had family trees... I'm not new to mythology, but still ... so many names! So many "sons / daughters of"!
"

I’d find that helpful, too. There are lots of versions online for the gods, but I haven’t seen much for the many mortal families.

Here’s a very detailed one one for gods, nymphs, etc.
https://www.theoi.com

[La_mariane]

Tamara wrote: "The story of Narcissus as a cautionary tale about the dangers of extreme self-absorption. Narcissus is unnecessarily cruel and harsh when he rejects the advances of those who love him. Nemesis puni..."

I found the part where his love for himself is the result of Nemesis's intervention really interesting : Narcissus is very young, around 16 years old. He's rejected lots of people, but, for a modern reader (or for me, at least), it doesn't sound unreasonnable. He had lots of time to fall in love. His self-absorption is the result of a curse, not a fault in his character.

[Tamara]

La_mariane wrote: "His self-absorption is the result of a curse, not a fault in his character..."

In the Humphries translation, Narcissus comes across as arrogant and lacking in compassion even before Nemesis curses him. He is described as having a “pride so fierce no boy, no girl, could touch him.” His rejection of Echo is unnecessarily harsh:

“Keep your hands off,” he cried, “and do not touch me!
I would die before I give you a chance at me.”

Nemesis is called upon to punish him. Nemesis is the goddess of vengeance and judges the plea to be “righteous.” It sounds to me as if the curse is punishment for his already existing pride and self-absorption. But you may be reading a different translation, which renders it a differently.

[David]

Tamara wrote: "La_mariane wrote: "His self-absorption is the result of a curse, not a fault in his character..."

In the Humphries translation, Narcissus comes across as arrogant and lacking in compassion even be..."

One mention in the Narcissus story, Knows himself, caught my attention:

Asked whether the boy
Should see a ripe old age, the prescient sage
Said, “If he never knows himself.”
(Soucy, III.346-348)

This prophecy about Narcissus struck me as strangely inverted; running counter to the Delphic maxim “Know thyself,” which was inscribed at the Temple of Apollo and has echoed through Greek philosophy as a moral ideal.

I ran the Latin found on the Perseus Digital Library through a translation app and it gave me this:

“si se non noverit” = “if he does not know himself.”

A clear echo of Greek gnōthi seauton (“know thyself”), the Delphic maxim.

Of course I then became too distracted by the translator app calling it an echo of the Greek to look into any further. I am left wondering if this is a warning against knowing yourself, or perhaps it is just an indicator that the maxim to "know thyself" is deeper and more nuanced than it appears on the surface, or as reflected in fountains.

[La_mariane]

Tamara wrote: "La_mariane wrote: "His self-absorption is the result of a curse, not a fault in his character..."

In the Humphries translation, Narcissus comes across as arrogant and lacking in compassion even be..."

I agree with you about Narcissus's character : harsh and prideful, of course. He could have been more tactful (but I truly think Echo should have kept her hands to herself).
But I'm stuck on his age : 16! Maybe it's because I'm a teacher, but if all the 16 years old who are too harsh and prideful were punished, there would not be many people alive by the time they were 17. I think Narcissus was a victim, more than anything.

[Tamara]

David wrote: "I am left wondering if this is a warning against knowing yourself, or perhaps it is just an indicator that the maxim to "know thyself" is deeper and more nuanced than it appears on the surface, or as reflected in fountains.."

Is it possible Tiresias' words that Narcissus will live to a ripe old age if "he never knows himself" refers to him never recognizing the image he sees in the pool is actually his own reflection? i.e. he is seeing himself but he doesn't know it. Ultimately, that is what causes his demise.

[Ian]

Turning back to the description of Envy, Michael Simpson’s commentary points out that her reluctance to look at things directly makes more sense in Latin. Invidia (envy) is clearly related to the word invidere, “to look askance.” A relationship which doesn’t work at all well in English.

[Tamara]

We've seen some variations of the different translations. So I'm just wondering if the words "to know" in Latin can also be translated as "to see" depending on the context--as in to "see" something is to "know" something. I'm thinking, again, of Tiresias saying Narcissus can live to a ripe old age if "he never knows himself." I'm wondering if this can be translated as "if he never sees himself."

[Ian]

Unfortunately the verb is *noverit,* a form of *noscere,* “to know, become familiar with.” The standard Lewis and Short Latin dictionary doesn’t seem to offer “see” as a possible meaning. But someone with more Latin may correct me.

[Michael]

Tamara wrote: "We've seen some variations of the different translations. So I'm just wondering if the words "to know" in Latin can also be translated as "to see" depending on the context--as in to "see" something is to "know" something. I'm thinking, again, of Tiresias saying Narcissus can live to a ripe old age if "he never knows himself." I'm wondering if this can be translated as "if he never sees himself."

I think you are on to something. I'm not a Latin expert but it is using a reflexive form of the verb "si se non noverit". In modern romance languages, the use of that verb can mean to get to know or, more crucial for this interpretation, to meet someone. If used in a reflexive (or reflective, haha?) form, it could be interpreted as to get to know or meet oneself. In this sense, he knows himself in an ironic sense because he his meeting himself as if he is meeting a stranger.

Here is what it might look like in a few languages. In the romance languages, the present subjunctive, used in this sense, could refer to a future event like meeting someone. So basically, the way I read it, he'll live a long life as long as he isn't introduced to himself. Again, I'm not proficient in Latin, but if what is true in modern romance was also true in Ovid's Latin, then I like your reading of seeing or meeting yourself face-to-face.
- "if he does not come to know/meet himself"
- "si no se conozca"
- "se não se conheça"
- "s'il ne se connaisse pas"
- "se non si conosca"

In the McCarter translation, there is an endnote for the first line of Book III, "The god had shed the likeness of the bull" that might also be useful.

This is the first appearance of imago, a key term in this book. An imago, translated throughout the book as 'likeness,' could take different forms. Here, as well as in the story of Actaeon, it is an appearance or disguise, but it could also be an echo (as in the story of Echo) or a reflection (as in the case of Narcissus)"

Oh yeah, it could also, in modern romance languages, mean if he does not recognize himself, which, after everything I said above, would be an even better reading if the original supports that definition for the verb.

[Tamara]

Ian and Michael, your posts have opened up a number of possible ways of reading that line. Basically, it boils down to Narcissus will live a long life under the following conditions:

He does not become familiar with himself
He does not meet himself
He is not introduced to himself

I think all of these work. Thank you both for the clarification. It's much appreciated.

If I'm reading this correctly, in the case of Narcissus, it refers to and is limited to not knowing himself externally, i.e. he will live as long as he is not introduced to his own face--if that makes sense. Whereas the Delphic maxim "know thyself" does not refer to physical attributes at all but to internal ones, i.e. know who and what you are.

This has been very enlightening. Thanks, again.

[Rafael]

Pálido é seu rosto, o corpo todo é magreza,
nada encara direto, pútridos dentes negrejam,
leito verdeja de fel, de veneno é viscosa sua língua.
Riso lhe passa longe, exceto se dor testemunha,
nunca desfruta do sono, excitada por curas insones

translation by Rodrigo Tadeu Gonçalves, Penguin Cia, lines 775-779, page 92.

[Rafael]

I can't edit it in the app, so these lines are the description of Envy in my Brazilian edition as it was asked by Michael.

[Michael]

Rafael wrote: "I can't edit it in the app, so these lines are the description of Envy in my Brazilian edition as it was asked by Michael."

Thanks Rafael. I like the alliteration with v and the repetition in the ve/de/e sound "leito v erdeja de fel, de veneno é v iscosa sua língua".

"viscosa sua língua" is also nice.

[Rafael]

Michael wrote: "Rafael wrote: "I can't edit it in the app, so these lines are the description of Envy in my Brazilian edition as it was asked by Michael."

Thanks Rafael. I like the alliteration with v and the rep..."

Great! i didn't noticed it until you point it out.