Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Ovid, Metamorphoses - Revisited
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Tamara wrote: "In other words, every time Apollo prances around wearing the laurel wreath, he is, in effect, advertising his failure to subdue Daphne and celebrating Daphne’s success in thwarting his attempted rape. And the delicious irony is the fool doesn’t even realize it. Daphne, on the other hand, certainly does. Why else would she agree to be his laurel wreath? This is her way of saying, “Look, everyone. He tried to exert his power over me, and he failed miserably.”"This is how I read it too. I will return to my translation so I can see how it dealt with it.
Io's story teaches us something about metamorphoses and identity. After being transformed
"She trails her father, trails her sisters too,
letting herself be petted and admired.
Elderly Inachus plucks grass for her;
she licks his hands, kissing her father's palms.
She can't contain her tears. If she could speak,
she'd beg for help, tell him her name and pain.
In place of words, two letters that she traced
in dirt gave evidence for her changed body."
The endnote in my translation says that she scratches her own name, that the two letters "form a Greek exclamation that expresses grief or suffering. She has, in effect, told him her 'name and pain.'"
In Io's story, we see a metamorphosis in which the person's identity is maintained. She knows her family, knows her name, can communicate in writing. Is this memory of identity possible because the animal form is closer to the human form?
Syrinx's story, being changed to reeds, offers no indication that her identity is preserved. Do reeds not have the capacity to maintain the human (or nymph) identity? Is it too different?
If we return to Daphne, was her identity maintained? "With new boughs, the laurel nodded-- it seemed to sway its treetop like a head." "Seemed" leaves the interpretation of this up to the reader. It "seemed" to Apollo like consent, but we don't have any clarity on whether her identity was preserved or whether she had the ability to communicate like Io.
Now, both Daphne and Syrinx asked to be transformed:
* "Help, father! If these streams of yours are holy,
destroy what makes me pleasing. Change my form!"
* "she asked her sister water nymphs to change her"
So, yes, it was their requests that foiled the attempted rapes, but did they intended to be metamorphosed into plants? To potentially lose their identities or have their identities changed so drastically? Maybe that degree of change was necessary because Jove still found Io, in her animalistic transformation, to be a suitable target for his sexual aggression.
We could say that some core part of their identities are what produce music or represent victory. That core, defining part of them survives. But, if we want to accept this interpretation, we should consider how immediate and drastic the change is and what any individual might have the capacity to tolerate if they maintain a conscious understanding of their prior form.
Paisely Rekdal, a contemporary poet, wrote a book of poems that adapt several of Ovid's stories to current scenarios - Nightingale. Her take on Io is insightful. In her version, a cyclist suffers an accident and is then confined to a wheelchair for the rest of her life. This situation makes her feel lesser in her relationship with her partner. She regrets her partial transformation.
...Better
that one day she wakes to find
all memory gone, so that she might inhabit
this new body perfectly, wanting
what she's always wanted: a whole self
without any sense of loss, even as she knows
loss would always have come for her.
It was built into the equation of any body:
the waning mind, waning desire, the flicker
of a life just fading into the distance.
Ovid's Io is restored to her original form. But if that is not an option, is it actually better to remember your old form? Would that disjunction between form and identity produce too much suffering like the name "Io" suggests? Were Daphne and Syrinx better off (potentially) losing the memory or consciousness of their prior forms? And then, as a bonus question, is Rekdal's Io correct that this kind of transformation and suffering is everyone's fate? That we need to learn to accept and live with our aging and waning bodies?
I've sat with Rekdal's take on this for almost a day now and can say that I appreciate that she has helped me to ask the "so what" question. I been lucky enough so far to not have some grand and permanent transformation forced on me like Daphne or Io. The closest I could say are economic forces that led to an employment layoff. I am lucky. There are victims to violence, natural disasters, pandemics, and other things beyond their control that lead to hard and painful changes in a very quick way.
However, Rekdal's Io does inquire to how similar and different those immediate and drastic changes are to the slow boil of passing time and aging. I'll soon be 52 and my body is not as capable as it once was. And, I'm only getting older. I am, in effect, going through a slow metamorphosis, changes imposed upon me by my environment and circumstances, and also by my life choices. Some periodic introspection into how my shape and identity is evolving is worthwhile.
I think it is worth calling out that Pan's story within a story about his attempted rape of Syrinx is very dry, very plain. It lacks the emotion and narrative touches of the Daphne and Io stories. What is fun is that this is purposeful. He is like, I tried talking you to sleep, but it didn't work, so now I'm going to tell you a story... a bedtime story. It is so boring that it puts the most attentive being possible, Argos, to sleep. It is the power of narrative, not to entertain or educate, but as a sedative and weapon of distraction.
The Syrinx story is indeed very plainly told. And, in good translations, you can see the narrator stepping to summarize the part Argus didn’t hear. I wonder whether all the other stories Mercury told him were equally stripped-down, and therefore boring.As a pure aside, I point out that the complex structure of tales within tales is also found, on an enormous scale, in Sanskrit literature, notably the medieval “Ocean of the Streams of Stories,” or Kathasaritsagara (see Wikipedia). I am also reminded that many-eyed Argus resembles the thousand-eyed Indra, one of the chief Vedic gods, except that Indra “liberates” cattle from demons instead of guarding them.
Ian wrote: "I am also reminded that many-eyed Argus resembles the thousand-eyed Indra, one of the chief Vedic gods, except that Indra “liberates” cattle from demons instead of guarding them..."Interesting connection, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some actual cultural exchange that accounts for it. Of course, the idea of a guard having many eyes as a metaphor is not much of a stretch. In English, we do say some might have "eyes in the back of their head."
Michael wrote: "Ian wrote: "I am also reminded that many-eyed Argus resembles the thousand-eyed Indra, one of the chief Vedic gods, except that Indra “liberates” cattle from demons instead of guarding them..."In..."
I think it's rather common root than cultural exchange, both are Indo-European people.
That's possible and I should have considered it. I'm sure a lot comes from a common origin. I also think that we can't assume any similarities between pantheons mean they come from a shared origin. So, not knowing, I asked Google's Gemini AI to about many-eyed gods similar to Argus and Indra. I didn't bring up Proto-Indo-European, it went there on its own.
The recurrence of "all-seeing" or highly observant deities across these cultures suggests a possible Proto-Indo-European (PIE) concept related to divine oversight, knowledge, and cosmic awareness. The "eye" or "eyes" of the sky god (Dyēws Ph₂tḗr) often represented the sun, seen as an all-seeing entity. This ancient connection between the sun, the sky god, and omnipresent vision likely contributed to the various forms these "many-eyed" or "all-seeing" figures took in later mythologies.
To support this, it described a bunch of gods I was unfamiliar with
* Celtic - Baylor
* Slavic - Svetovid, Triglav, Porevit, and Ruievit
* Nordic - Odin, Heimdal, and the giant Thiazi whose eyes became the stars
AI does try to please the user more than I'm comfortable with but these are interesting connections that support the PIE origin theory for Argus.
You are right, particularly about AI), we should checked twice before assuming common origins. Afaik, for pantheons of Indo-European peoples common origin is established almost as good as the common origin of the languages. I'm not sure that it is the right explanation for this similarity between Argus and Indra, but it's quite probable giving the distance between Greece and India.
For the Indo-European mythologies and their connections, I suggest Jaan Puhvel’s “Comparative Mythology,” originally a lecture course I was fortunate to attend. It is based in good measure on the work of Georges Dumézil, on whom see Wikipedia. The young Dumézil was fascinated by connections he saw between Ovid and Sanskrit literature, but he later abandoned much of the comparison.The idea of the thousand-eyed Indra doesn’t show up until the medieval “Brahma Purana,” so assuming a common Proto-Indo-European origin for the myth is a bit of a stretch, although far from inconceivable. What caught my attention was Mercury’s role as liberator of a cow from a demonic captor, which is Indra’s specialty in the early texts.
Methodologically, I would like a third point of comparison, a story with elements of both found in an Indo-European culture that is distant enough from India and Greece that recent transmission seems less likely than a common origin.Confusion surrounds the character of Argus in any case. He may have been invented to explain Argeiphontes, Argos-Slayer, an early epithet of Hermes (Mercury) which does not have a story to go with it in the more ancient texts. In a non-Ovidian version the god doesn’t bore Argus to sleep, he just throws a rock a long distance, killing him outright. Effective but not clever.
Interesting. I've never heard or read about this variant of the story.
I can’t remember where I encountered it (Apollodorus?), but I confirmed it in Jennifer R. March, Dictionary of Classical Mythology.
Yes, Apollodorus. The epithet “Argeiphontes” appears in the Odyssey without explanation of who Argos is.
To return to Apollodorus’ narrative, Zeus set to work to gain possession of the cow by ordering Hermes, who was ever adept at thievery, to steal it away from under the eyes of its guard; but when Hermes found that he was unable to get hold of it by stealth, because his intentions were betrayed by a certain Hierax (‘Hawk’, who may perhaps have been turned into a bird of that kind by way of punishment), he killed Argos instead by hurling a well-aimed stone at him.15
15 Apollod. 2.1.3.
Hard, Robin. The Routledge Handbook of Greek Mythology (p. 231). Taylor & Francis. Kindle Edition.
Most of the referenced gods that are all-seeing or observant are stretches that don't feel like a match to Argus. The Nordic story of Thiazi's eyes does share some elements, but may also be a stretch.
* There is an ox being watched by a very observant Thiazi
* There is a trickster god, Loki
* There is conflict between the gods
* Thiazi's eyes are removed and become stars, not peacock feathers
Returning to #42, and the question of "native" and "foreign" gods in Roman consciousness, I have noticed that Cumont's "The Oriental Religions in Roman Paganism" is now available in Kindle free, and for 99 cents: I think both are the Project Gutenberg transcription I have used directly.For other distingusihed, but obsolete, works by this scholar, who was very influential for much of the twentieth century, see Franz Cumont on Amazon, https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks...
Other titles/editions are listed as by Frantz Cumont.
I've finished book 1 (I know I'm behind but plan on being caught up in the next few days). I sometimes have trouble focusing when I read so I'm currently listening to the audiobook while reading a physical copy (Raeburn's translation). The narrators are fantastic and I'm having lots of fun with this. But sheesh! Some of these stories... 🤯Just some random thoughts:
-metamorphosis isn't always just or deserved - it's often a Divine reaction to mortal behaviour, especially when boundaries are crossed.
-Jupiter is the most active god, bringing both creation and destruction, often hypocritically.
-Book 1 is a world in constant change where gods shape, punish and desire while mortals are often caught in the crossfire.
-Daphne and Io were particularly uncomfortable to read at times. I also wonder how different Stephanie McCarter's translation would be to Raeburn's. His is easy to understand and follow along with, but I think McCarter's translation might bring something different to these stories.
˖˳·˖ ִֶָ ⋆ rach ⋆ ִֶָ˖·˳˖ wrote: "I also wonder how different Stephanie McCarter's translation would be to Raeburn's. His is easy to understand and follow along with, but I think McCarter's translation might bring something different to these stories."McCarter is my primary text and all quotes I give are from her translation unless I specify otherwise. I find her very easy to understand and more direct when compared to other translations I have access to. I don't have Raeburn's so I can't compare.
Michael wrote: "˖˳·˖ ִֶָ ⋆ rach ⋆ ִֶָ˖·˳˖ wrote: "I also wonder how different Stephanie McCarter's translation would be to Raeburn's. His is easy to understand and follow along with, but I think McCarter's transla..."That's what made me think it might be interesting to do a comparison read. But not yet. I want to go through the whole reading with this one first, and then maybe one day I'll get a copy of McCarter's translation and do a comparison to see any differences. Should be a fun experiment :)
Tamara wrote: "I was struck by the change in tone. Ovid begins in the traditional manner of an epic poem by invoking the gods:...
It seems as if Ovid is having a blast. His tone is irreverent and playful as he pokes fun at the gods and their antics. He has a great sense of humor and must have been a lot of fun at parties."
Thanks for this comment, Tamara. I'm catching up with the Mendelbaum translation. The more I read, the more readable I find the tone. Ovid is really fun. For his sense of humor, check out The Art of Love. Been awhile since I've read it, I remember thinking the advice on how to get over a breakup was still pretty relevant.
Ashley wrote: "The more I read, the more readable I find the tone. Ovid is really fun. For his sense of humor, check out The Art of Love. ..."Yes, I've read Ovid's The Art of Love and enjoyed his humor in that, too. I should pick it up and re-read it some time soon. Thanks for the reminder.
Michael wrote: "...Finally, there is a lot of visual art associated with this myth. I've collected some here. Content warning, there be boobs ahead..."This is an amazing collection! Thank you so much for sharing!
@30Michael wrote: "Adam and Eve couldn't go back, only forward to a hard life of labor and birth pains in the fallen world...."I enjoyed your juxtaposition of "hard...labor and birth pains in the fallen world." It took me to the evolutionary "cost" of the human brain -- sutures and fontanels of the fetal skull, making "possible" a enlarged cerebrum...(knowledge?)
Thank you, too, for the links to the art work. You took me back to early days with this thread, when I now recognize that I grieved by exploring the diverse and oft contrasting views artists through the ages brought to Dante's Inferno. (Unfortunately -- or fortunately -- that work is now lost to the ravages of the evolving Internet.) I will just be "catching up" with this discussion of Ovid, but already it feels so satisfying and tuned to a world different than that one of over twenty years ago. (Please pardon the reminiscing.)
Glad to have you join the read, Lily! The more the merrier
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Compare this to the next section when Jove rapes Io. Jove isn't messing around and failing to get what he wants.
Also, compare Apollo's reaction to Pan's when he pursues Syrinx. Pan also fails but just takes it instead of lamenting his loss and proclaiming that he loves her and will honor her.
SIDE NOTE: Syrinx is also a trophy or memorial of the god's failure, but in a more creepy way. He now handles her and applies his lips to her at will, not what you want from your would be rapist.
Once Apollo is understood as a ridiculous figure, his harvesting and use of trophies become signs of him as a loser. It is politicized when the same laurel trees are mentioned guarding Augustus' doorposts. All of this detail is associating Apollo as a fool with Augustus.