The Debate Club discussion
: ̗̀➛ Ethics and Education
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•✩• What does Racism Mean, and Can Anyone Be Racist?
Mod
Even still, that's a very harsh and disrespectful way to put it, whether they were referring to just a few liberals or not
Segregation: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trum...If anything as i see it, its like you dont EXPLICITLY but its still protected under the civil right act so its like
Its just symbolic and removing paperwork and redundant laws
as a mixed person whose experienced racism from both white and poc, yeah, everyone can be racist.
Yk whats racist? Thinking all white people and people of colour which is a stuoid term are the same and ac the same and judging racism based on skin colour
Mini beings up a good point POC is a racist term
kitcantspell wrote: "as a mixed person whose experienced racism from both white and poc, yeah, everyone can be racist."Personally I think the term "white" is not so helpful . For example, the French and the Germans are culturally quite different despite they're both "white". Even within Germany, the Prussians and Bavarians are culturally different.
thats.. not changing anything ?
Racism does exist to an extent. Yes racism exists when people discriminate against a group for their race. But critical race theory is different. It basically says that some races have it off easier than some. I don’t believe in this. What some might call “white privilege” should be called “good choice privilege” because we can see that people who do the best in America are not white people, but mostly Asians and that’s because of their stereotypical work ethic and their culture. So yes racism exists, but saying that I have it easier because I’m white is not right and shouldn’t exist
이 wrote: "kitcantspell wrote: "as a mixed person whose experienced racism from both white and poc, yeah, everyone can be racist."Personally I think the term "white" is not so helpful . For example, the Fre..."
that doesnt really make a difference. racism isnt necessarily discriminating ethnicity
yes, it may be hard for poc to be racist, but thats just because of americas dynamic. its still 100 percent possible for each and every person to be racist in some way. also, this may be controversial, but just because you have an 'n word pass' from your black friend, or you ARE black, doesnt mean its ok to say the n word. its still a slur, so its still racist, no matter who is saying it.
Austin wrote: "Mini beings up a good point POC is a racist term"And saying all POC are the same and all white people are the same is silly
Judging who can do what based on whether they have melatonin is silly
And yes poc is a racist term
no but POC is a group of people, a raceits not being racist by referring to someone as that
Poc is like the majority of the world lol its racist to assume all poc act the same
85% of people in the world are POCs
no ofc im not assuming they all act the same but its grouping people together, just like youd group a certain species of fish or animallike i fail to see how its being racist with no actual racist intent behind it ..?
No okay wait let me exaplinSaying that all POC do this and all POC are oppressed
Or all white people are more powerful
Or saying POCs are all expereicnigng the same thihgs is negelcting the fact that all POCs are so so so vastly different and just completely overshadowing cultures and experiences
Same with white people but at least white is like. Youre somwhat similar (even then, barely) but POC is like equating vast extremes to one another
okay i understand what you mean now, yeah when i use POC im literally just using it to describe a group of people, not to have anything bad behind it or say theyre all the same- i know that african americans can be different from hawaiians, etc etc, i just meant it as a race class because thats the term im used to, sorry
Its not towards you its just the termIts quite ironic and using the term is just....it doesnt even make sense bc wdym colour, black or white arent colours smh
And stop victimising pocs?!
Also yes anyone can be racistAnd white people as the term goes, can expeeience systematic racism as the systems change
It depends what system
Systematic or systemic lol i gget confused
Mod
Mod
white people can still be unsuccessful and black people can still be successful but critical race theory just says that many people have a racist bias. i want to disagree with you on this bc that is very correct. i have a lot of examples but here is one:
(please try to read the whole thing as i think it has a lot of good evidence)
"White teachers' implicit prejudices or stereotypes can also make them less effective when teaching black students, suggests a study by Drew Jacoby-Senghor, PhD, at Columbia University, and colleagues. The researchers recruited white college students to prepare and present a history lesson to either a white or a black student.
"When the 'teachers' had higher levels of implicit racial bias, their black (but not white) students scored more poorly on a history test based on the lesson. Later, the researchers played recordings of the lessons to white students. Those who watched recorded lessons originally presented to black students also did more poorly on the history test, suggesting that the quality of the lesson itself, and not the student's aptitude, was to blame. Teachers who gave lectures to black students appeared more nervous, the researchers found, which seemed to impair the quality of their lesson ( Journal of Experimental Social Psychology , 2016). Although the study didn't evaluate actual teachers, it does suggest that student performance can be significantly influenced by the way that lessons are taught."
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2016/11/c...
Okay so implicit bias can also exist in any race. A lot of black peope feel uncomfy with a bunch of white people, for instance
Mod
And white people as the term goes, can expeeience systematic racism as the systems change
It depends what system
Systematic or systemic lol i gget confused"
agreed white people can also experience systematic racism
I honestly thknkmjust hyperfocusing on race and excluding anyone from any race on anything is what leads to racism
Mod
i know that was just the example i had, other races can be just as racist as whites though i do feel that blacks are more discriminated against than any other race (at least in the us)
Like for instance if it is an indian culture clubIm not going to say only indians
Im going to say anyone can come if they wanna learn about indian culture and partake
There is a prejudice that blacks tend to do more crimes, and you see a youngman wearung a hood and immeditaly youre like run
MidnightButterfly wrote: "YourLocalPoliticsPotato wrote: "White people can't be racist because they are all good people"I missed this guy"
Awww thanks BUT DONT MISGENDER ME IM NOT A GUY
YourLocalPoliticsPotato wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "YourLocalPoliticsPotato wrote: "White people can't be racist because they are all good people"I missed this guy"
Awww thanks BUT DONT MISGENDER ME IM NOT A GUY"
Lol guy as in hey guys guy is now used to mean humanity just as man was XD
Austin wrote: "Lol you also just discribed inter-sectionalism in your most recent post too. It is a completely valid criticism. Right up there with socialism and communism. All ideologies that are founded on evil."i'm so sorry to side track this debate but oh my god socialism and communism are a. not founded on "evil" and b. are definitely not as bad a fascism??
communism arose as a direct response to social and economic inequalities of the industrial revolution (18th–19th centuries) in russia. it anything it came as a direct response to the brutality of early capitalism which created vast wealth sure, but also extreme poverty, child labor, and worker exploitation. factory owners (capitalists) profited enormously while workers endured long hours, unsafe conditions, and starvation wages, hence why they call it the proletarian (workers) revolution.
fascism on the other hand is inherently authoritarian, nationalist, and rooted in racial/ethnic hierarchy, suppression of dissent, and glorification of violence. it explicitly rejects equality and democracy because italy (the first fascist state) created it as a direct backlash against liberal democracy, socialism, and communism.
socialism (in its democratic forms) and communism (in its theoretical marxist form) are rooted in critiques of economic inequality and aim for collective ownership or redistribution. while some communist regimes devolved into authoritarianism, their foundational principles advocate for class equality, not racial supremacy or militaristic expansion at all - this is nothing like fascism where the theory and application were both equally as bad.
and before you try to point to stalinism or Mmoism as "proof" that communism is evil, i would like to point out that these regimes strayed far from marx’s original theories (which lacked blueprints for governance because communism is supposed to be inherently classless). similarly, not all socialist movements are authoritarian (example: nordic social democracies).
fascism has no non-violent or democratic implementations. its core tenets (ultranationalism, scapegoating, dictatorship) require oppression.
the key point here being that while communism/socialism have been distorted by authoritarian regimes, fascism is defined by its oppressive nature - it cannot be anything else. fascism explicitly dehumanises "outsiders" (e.g., nazis with antisemitism, mussolini’s imperialism). its "evil" is intentional and systematic.
socialism/communism, even in flawed practice, arose from critiques of exploitation. their worst atrocities (e.g. gulags) were often products of paranoia or bureaucratic failure not through it's foundational goals. fascism’s evil is doctrinal; socialism’s/communism’s failures are often deviations from their stated aims.
lumping all three together ignores the nuance and intention behind all of the political ideologies. would you equate nelson mandela’s democratic socialism with hitler’s fascism? or FDR’s new deal with franco’s dictatorship? no you wouldn't.
okay now it terms of this debate, i believe that racism is the belief that one racial or ethnic group is inherently superior or inferior to others, which then leads to discrimination, prejudice, and systemic oppression. however it can operate on an individual, institutional, and cultural level.
there are multiple types of racism which is why i think the debate is difficult because racism itself is such a complex topic - as it the idea of "reverse racism".
there's individual racism which is just prejudiced beliefs or discriminatory actions by a single person like someone saying racial slurs or hate speech or refusing to hire someone because of their race etc.
there's also institutional/systemic racism which is policies and practices within institutions (government, schools, corporations) that disadvantage certain racial groups like redlining (denying loans to black neighborhoods), harsher sentencing for minorities in courts, underfunded schools in predominantly non-white areas etc.
there's also structural racism which is the cumulative effect of societal systems that perpetuate racial inequality, even without explicit intent. for example wealth gaps due to historical discrimination, media underrepresentation of minorities, environmental racism (pollution disproportionately affecting minority communities) - the best way i think about this one is the song "we didn't start the fire" by billy joel which essentially says it's not our fault that all of this happens, there's so much history at play and while it true, i'm not responsible for the actions of people thousands of years ago, to be ignorant of that histories effect today is to be intentionally oblivious.
there's then cultural racism which refers to societal norms that uphold one culture as superior while marginalizing others like stereotyping all asians as "model minorities" or mocking non-european traditions as "backward" etc.
then there's colorism which is prejudice based on skin tone within a racial group (lighter skin favored over darker skin) like fair-skinned actors getting more roles in bollywood etc.
then there's internalised racism (there's a lot i know lmao) which is when marginalized individuals believe and act on negative stereotypes about their own race like an indigenous person feeling ashamed of their native language or an indian person trying to whitewash their skin to fit eurocentric beauty standards.
no the other one i keep seeing is this idea of reverse racism which some people claim exists when minorities discriminate against white people - key word here white people. racism requires power + systemic oppression and historically, white people (in western societies) haven’t faced institutionalised racial disadvantage.
a black person disliking white people is prejudice, not racism, because it lacks systemic power.
on the question of if anyone can be racist, yes anyone can hold racial prejudices but the racism they perpetuate differs.
systemic racism depends on power structures and in the america/europe, white people hold majority institutional power, so their racism reinforces oppression. a non-white person can be prejudiced against white people but can’t enforce systemic racism against them in these societies.
the exception can be that in a majority-non-white country (e.g. rwanda post-genocide), the dominant group could enact systemic racism against minorities.
power matters, systemic racism requires control over institutions which white people have and have historically held.
i saw a question of whether a a poor white person experience racism from a rich black person to which i would say they may face class discrimination, but their race still grants societal privileges (e.g. not being racially profiled).
The term racist means when a person is treated worse, excluded, disadvantaged, harassed, bullied, humiliated or degraded because of their race or ethnicity. It easily leaves leeway for all races and ethnicities to be able to do this. Just because someone has a history of racism in their life from others, doesn't mean they cannot be racist. The Merriam Webster dictionary entry for "racist" is here -": of, relating to, or characterized by racism: such as
a
: having, reflecting, or fostering the belief that race (see race entry 1 sense 1a) is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race"
Notice how even the term or concept of racism also doesn't discriminate or leave out races who couldn't be racist, or something similar.
WHt racist comments has trump made?
No, fr that is exactly what i was saying
I believe that everyone IS racist. no matter how hard we try, we have innate and generational biases toward certain people groups based on skin color, race, belief, all that.
Azrael wrote: "I believe that everyone IS racist. no matter how hard we try, we have innate and generational biases toward certain people groups based on skin color, race, belief, all that."what would be your immediate biases?
Do you thknk we shpuld try to stop that, or is that just a natural evolutionary/natural/biological thing?
D1bs(fearless version)୧ wrote: "Azrael wrote: "I believe that everyone IS racist. no matter how hard we try, we have innate and generational biases toward certain people groups based on skin color, race, belief, all that."
what ..."
well, even though i try my hardest not to be racist, since I'm white, and I'm best friends with black people, I've seen people treat black people harshly. be it people on the streets, fellow black people, or whoever screws them over by putting them in places where they can't get jobs. but i KNOW that they don't mean it. if you knew what you did was wrong, would you still do it? no. so i think the biases blind people to the truth of how beautiful we all are.
what ..."
well, even though i try my hardest not to be racist, since I'm white, and I'm best friends with black people, I've seen people treat black people harshly. be it people on the streets, fellow black people, or whoever screws them over by putting them in places where they can't get jobs. but i KNOW that they don't mean it. if you knew what you did was wrong, would you still do it? no. so i think the biases blind people to the truth of how beautiful we all are.
ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (hiatus! check bio!) wrote: "Azrael wrote: "D1bs(fearless version)୧ wrote: "Azrael wrote: "I believe that everyone IS racist. no matter how hard we try, we have innate and generational biases toward certain people groups based..."
optomistic? I said no matter how hard we try we can't not be racist.
optomistic? I said no matter how hard we try we can't not be racist.
ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (hiatus! check bio!) wrote: "Azrael wrote: "ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (hiatus! check bio!) wrote: "Azrael wrote: "D1bs(fearless version)୧ wrote: "Azrael wrote: "I believe that everyone IS racist. no matter how hard we try, we have innate and ..."
ah, i see. fair point. you right, you right.
ah, i see. fair point. you right, you right.
Mod
I thought POC meant People of Color?
ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (hiatus! check bio!) wrote: "sunny ୨୧⋆｡˚ ⋆ (hiatus) wrote: "Austin wrote: "Lol you also just discribed inter-sectionalism in your most recent post too. It is a completely valid criticism. Right up there with socialism and comm..."i'm not arguing that at all - i agree that communism is a political ideology that should stay theoretical - it won't ever work in practise because it requires a classless state and often times it's exploited by the few who then turn it into an authoritarian practise.
however it is unfair and incorrect to then mischaracterized is as a source of "evil" equal to the likes of fascism which is inherently built upon racism and fear?? misinformation simply fuels fear (the red scare is example enough)
ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (hiatus! check bio!) wrote: "Barnette wrote: "ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (hiatus! check bio!) wrote: "poc is literally just the term “colored people” backwards. the latter being used in segregation-era U.S. as a way of recognizing poc as a low..."what do then say to the people in marginalised communities who see it more as a unifying term than a term given by oppressors? coloured people holds a very different meaning to poc and terminology does shift over time (e.g. black vs. african american, latinx, queer etc. debates) and most people argue that what matters is who controls the narrative. i think it's a little misleading to say that it's only white leftist who termed poc as politically correct when in its broader context it has been used by marginalised communities to show a sense of solidarity as well.
it is actually really interesting because you do raise a lot of valid points about linguistic legacy and whether 'poc' inadvertently perpetuates historical baggage. however, many people today use it as a conscious alternative to divisive labels, emphasising shared struggles rather than subjugation (which oppressors purposely used it for). i guess it boils down to whether it’s truly inclusive or just another top-down euphemism.
the thing about words and language is they shift as society does too. i mean if you tried saying fuck eight years ago you'd be seen as an uncultured lowlife - you say it now and it's completely fine. intention and meaning behind words but also the social culture that exists all play a part in how words are perceived. queer was a full blown slur not even two three decades ago but with how mainstream queer culture and activism became - the word queer's inherent meaning (while still offensive within certain contexts) shifted.
Mod
Ohh
yes anyone can be racistlike a half black person can be racist to a asian person and vice versa
you don't need to be white to not be racist
I assumed they meant that out of the liberals, the ones who are dumb/crazy
But if you did mean all liberals are crazy and dumb that is not respectful at all and I agree with Barnette