Should We Have to Call People by Their "Preferred Pronouns" or is That Encroaching on Freedom of Speech?

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "Austin wrote: "Im just not sure who you are talking to Dukkie you arent using titles properly"

I'm so sorry... I'm confused ;-;
I was just speaking in general... unless I'm not getting some sort o..."

Hes being sarcastic ignore him (hes saying it is hard to tell who you are talking to)

[Austin]

Because if they cant define a woman they cant define a man either.

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

No they all know what a man is a man is just the patriarchy 💀

[Austin]

But what is the patriarchy if we dont know what a man is?

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

A man is the oppressor 😂

[Austin]

Lol but how can we define the oppressor?

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

Dont ask me austin idk 😂😭

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

Okay so basically.
Biological man beleives he acts according to what society defines as a woman. Decides to tell people she is a woman. Does not dress as a woman or anything and still looks as what soceity calls is a man. Says still i am a woman, but nit according to siceitys view. Says that society is wring and the idea of a woman is flexible. But they are not a man. They are a woman

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

So either we say that there are set ideas on what a man and woman is according to bioligical reasons and go from there (trans person is attemoting to look/act as the way the bioloigcal person of the chosen sex would act)

Or disregard gender entirely in which case we do not need to change gender since gender is meaningless

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

So what defines a woman is her outwards charactersitis? The looks?

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

Because that is what surgery attemots to replicate

[Austin]

Well again gender is a social construct based on a social construct. You have terms floating in the air with no meaning

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

So some want to change sex some want to change gender? But changing gender does not reuwire changing anything physical since gender is internal.

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

But changing sex means that sex is also now changeable

[Austin]

I'm stull hung up on Gender being a social construct.

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

So we should sepearate trans women and bio women in different catgeories for example?

[Austin]

well how does that help if we don't know what woman is?

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

So changing sex is changing gender?

[Austin]

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "Austin wrote: "I'm stull hung up on Gender being a social construct."

gender is how society perceives sex"

but sex is biological and used for reproduction and mating and courting.

[Austin]

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "So we should sepearate trans women and bio women in different catgeories for example?"

yeah but more like how we separate women of different race and men of different rac..."

but what are men and what are women?

[Austin]

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "Austin wrote: "well how does that help if we don't know what woman is?"

we do though… a woman is someone that identifies as a woman whether cis or trans and then further definitions of those commu..."

but you can't say that though. A definition can't reference itself in the definition.

A ball is a ball. Doesn't tell us what a ball is.

[Austin]

so you are changing gender when you change sex?

[TESSIE]

Wow this chat def went off topic for a moment.

[Barnette ⋆˙⟡ (my girlfriend's version), Creator, Head Moderator]

Tessie ~face of an angel, mind of a killer~ wrote: "Wow this chat def went off topic for a moment."

Lol yeah

[Damon (Hello?!?!!)]

I feel as if this is self explanatory. Freedom of speech, yes, but it's still common courtesy. It's not encroaching or restricting freedom of speech. Its the same reason why we are polite at all under any circumstance. It's simply being a kind person and respecting another for being a fellow humungular bean!

[Alexandria]

YourLocalPoliticsPotato wrote: "No, we shouldn't call people by "preferred" pronouns because those don't exist. You're born with your pronouns and you can't change those, so forcing people to call you by different pronouns is cra..."

We aren't born with pronouns. Pronouns and gender are social constructs. We're born with our sexes. We don't come preassigned with pronouns.

Several languages, including Chinese, Finnish, Estonian, and some Indo-Aryan languages like Punjabi, don't have gendered pronouns, meaning they use the same word for "he," "she," and "it". So no, we aren't born with assigned pronouns

[Sai :), Assistant Moderator]

answering the prompt: i wouldn't say you should be forced to by the law, but i would say that it is morally right, since even if you don't believe in the concept of not being cis, you should still respect people's personal decisions and what they want to be called. of course, no one should get angry at you if you accidentally use the wrong pronouns the first time, but if they ask you to switch, then you should respect their personal preferences. it doesn't harm you to call someone he instead of she or smth.

[Sai :), Assistant Moderator]

Damon(Hiatus, mental health or lack thereof) wrote: "I feel as if this is self explanatory. Freedom of speech, yes, but it's still common courtesy. It's not encroaching or restricting freedom of speech. Its the same reason why we are polite at all un..."

agreed!

[Sai :), Assistant Moderator]

Alexandria wrote: "YourLocalPoliticsPotato wrote: "No, we shouldn't call people by "preferred" pronouns because those don't exist. You're born with your pronouns and you can't change those, so forcing people to call ..."

i see your point lmao i just want to correct that hindi actually does have masculinity/femininity when referring to people. i'm not trying to be rude or anything lmao just clarifying

but yes, i see your point and agree with it

[Sai :), Assistant Moderator]

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "Tessie ~face of an angel, mind of a killer~ wrote: "Wow this chat def went off topic for a moment."

lmao it did basically all the chats do that lmao

[Alexandria]

Sai :) wrote: "Alexandria wrote: "YourLocalPoliticsPotato wrote: "No, we shouldn't call people by "preferred" pronouns because those don't exist. You're born with your pronouns and you can't change those, so forc..."

Masculine and feminine aren't exactly the same as female and male.
Spanish has masculinity and femininity words as well. But they aren't inherently male/female, if that makes sense. Like saying "la escuela" instead of "el escuela". It's feminine/masculine, but it doesn't mean the school is a woman.
People are a bit different, but still

[Pierce Samuel ✞︎ (My Girlfriend's Ver.)]

I mean, I don't have "Preferred" pronouns. I have my pronouns, He/Him. It's not a matter of "I prefer this over that!!". No, it is how someone is to address me, because I am a guy, and I should be treated as such. Now, will I blow up on you if you misgender me? Not at all!! At MOST I'll say something like "I'm a guy by the way" or "Saying 'she' is crazy lol", if I say anything at all. But my pronouns aren't a "preference", they're apart of my identity, and are not up for debate

[Pierce Samuel ✞︎ (My Girlfriend's Ver.)]

Also, people saying "What if you don't agree with the "lifestyle"", well, no one is forcing you to. But imagine this:

You buy a doughnut with maple filling, only to find out the filling is chocolate. Would you go around saying that you're eating a maple doughnut, OR would you correct yourself, as the doughnut is obviously not maple? You can argue all you want that is is maple and not chocolate, but you're going to look stubborn, disrespectful, and just plain rude. If you don't like chocolate doughnuts, then don't buy them, and if you find out that a doughnut you've liked for ages isn't maple, but chocolate and you throw it away because of that? That's just a waste, is it not?

[Pierce Samuel ✞︎ (My Girlfriend's Ver.)]

𝔖𝔦𝔯𝔢𝔫 wrote: "that’s actually a great explanation-"

Thank you lol!! I am a speech and debater, and using metaphors are some of my favorite things to do in my debate rounds!! It helps simplify things for both parties, I recommend it!!

[Pierce Samuel ✞︎ (My Girlfriend's Ver.)]

𝔖𝔦𝔯𝔢𝔫 wrote: "actually, not all guys use he/ him pronouns. While often linked pronouns and gender aren’t the same, so I’d rather not go around assuming every guy ik uses he/ him pronouns."

For sure, I was more saying for me personally!! Like, if someone used "She" or "They", I would be a bit uncomfortable, as that isn't what I am. But it varies from person to person!! But pronouns aren't a request, they're a boundary that need to be respected is what I'm getting at. If you refuse to use someone's correct pronouns you're not "honoring God", you're just because a prick (In my humble opinion)

One of the only situations when using someone's incorrect pronouns is okay is when the person's safety is at risk if you use the correct ones (ie; Around unaccepting family members)

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

If a guy does not use he/him pronouns he is not a guy then?? As in, he/him is used for guys. What else, who else, could it be used for? (self identifying non bio guys too?)

[Sai :), Assistant Moderator]

Alexandria wrote: "Sai :) wrote: "Alexandria wrote: "YourLocalPoliticsPotato wrote: "No, we shouldn't call people by "preferred" pronouns because those don't exist. You're born with your pronouns and you can't change..."

lmao we're very off topic but in hindi it is not for pronouns like she or he, but for some other types, such as possessive pronouns like hers. you would use uska for a male and uski for a female.

[Sai :), Assistant Moderator]

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "some people use different pronouns regardless of whether they are trans or cis because it’s a matter of comfort really"

yeah the point of using "preferred pronouns" is just a harmless courtesy, like how you would hold the door open for a senior or be polite with your parents or teachers. it shouldn't be required by law, but as a simple respect towards someone you should use the pronouns they feel comfortable with. even if you don't agree with the concept of transgender or multiple genders, it's a simple gesture of politeness.

[Pierce Samuel ✞︎ (My Girlfriend's Ver.)]

MidnightButterfly wrote: "If a guy does not use he/him pronouns he is not a guy then?? As in, he/him is used for guys. What else, who else, could it be used for? (self identifying non bio guys too?)"

Gender doesn't always pronouns!! Most guys feel comfortable with he/him pronouns, but you can also see it like this:

If 100 history majors were put into a room, and 95% of them said their favorite time period was the crusades, but then the rest of the 5% said stuff like ancient Greece, Victorian times, ancient Egypt, etc, you wouldn't discredit them as a history major, no? ALL of them are still history majors, but some just feel more connected to a time period than others! That's what it is like with gender and pronouns! They are still considered their gender because the fact that that is what they identify with, but there might be pronouns that they feel more connected to, and that is okay! They are still their gender, even if the majority doesn't feel connected to those pronouns like them!

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

Wait wait gender does not always equal gender??? So we..wait. Gender is not gender?

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

So gender is not gender
A woman is a woman with no other defnition
Sex can change

I am very lost, people

[Barnette ⋆˙⟡ (my girlfriend's version), Creator, Head Moderator]

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Wait wait gender does not always equal gender??? So we..wait. Gender is not gender?"

Wait where'd you get that?

[Emma Klingler]

I am just as confused as you @MidnightButterfly

[Emma Klingler]

Barnette wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Wait wait gender does not always equal gender??? So we..wait. Gender is not gender?"

Wait where'd you get that?"

Pierce's last post

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

Emma (HIATUS~vacation) wrote: "I am just as confused as you @MidnightButterfly"

😭😭

[Emma Klingler]

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Emma (HIATUS~vacation) wrote: "I am just as confused as you @MidnightButterfly"

😭😭"

😭😭

[gia]

It's respectful, yes, but I'm not sure if freedom of speech can be used to rebuttal in this situation

[Pierce Samuel ✞︎ (My Girlfriend's Ver.)]

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Wait wait gender does not always equal gender??? So we..wait. Gender is not gender?"

Ahh sorry, I am a bit sick right now, I meant gender doesn't equal pronouns, sorry mate!!

[Pierce Samuel ✞︎ (My Girlfriend's Ver.)]

That was my fault, I'm sick and tired, my grammar is NOT the best right now, forgive me 🙏

[butterfly is back (barely, mostly on insta)]

⋆.ೃ࿔; P I E R C E ˖*:･༄ {Free Pali} wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Wait wait gender does not always equal gender??? So we..wait. Gender is not gender?"

Ahh sorry, I am a bit sick right now, I meant gender doesn't equal pronouns, sorry ma..."

Okay that makes more sense. I hope you get well soon!

But as for the pronouns, are pronouns not a direct reflection of one's gender?