Classics and the Western Canon discussion
This topic is about
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
>
Week 1: Tablets I & II
date
newest »
newest »
Emil wrote: "It's mentioned that Humbaba controlled a territory with a thousand-mile radius. That's a lot, even for such a monster. Maybe Humbaba symbolized another city-state Uruk waged war with or competed against. What do you think?.."We are told in Tablet II that Humbaba has been placed as the guardian of the Cedar Forest by the god Enlil. His function is to keep people out so they don't destroy the forest.
Enkidu worked his words, saying to Gilgamesh:
'My friend, how could we travel to the Cedar Forest?
To keep the cedars safe from harm,
Enlil has made him the terror of men.
By insisting on going to the forest to cut the logs, Gilgamesh is defying Enlil. Why does he insist on doing it? Is it to achieve fame? To build a wall with the logs? Or is it to assert himself, prove his strength, and defy the god. He claims he " . . . will cut Humbaba's head off and sail it down the river."
As you suggest, his motives are suspect.
I wonder if Enkidu is fully human or just resembles one. My text refers to him as a creature:Now accomplish what Anu has commanded. Let this creature be the equal of Gilgamesh.Humans cannot digest and live on grass but Enkidu does.
On grass did he graze with the wild beasts.Does this suggest that Enkidu is more of a wild being than a human? And if so, does that somehow justify his use as a means to an end, to domesticate him only to serve Gilgamesh’s story?
Maybe I’m channeling Jack London's White Fang, but I can’t help thinking Enkidu could almost be replaced by a wild animal, like a big wolf. And since Gilgamesh seems determined to be a giant lumberjack, perhaps Enkidu could have been a big blue ox instead.
David wrote: "Roger wrote: "There's a lot of poetic repetition in the story."Is all the parallelism and repetition just a byproduct of speeches and the tradition of oral storytelling, or is there something mor..."
Curiously, it has been reported that there is more verbatim repetition in the latest (Neo-Babylonian) copies than in the older versions (mainly, I would think, the Neo-Assyrian copies of the Standard Version: the Old Babylonian versions are probably too fragmentary to judge). This suggests an homogenization in scribal transmission more than it does the survival of an oral tradition, in which "set-pieces" are re-used to spare the memory of both the reciter and the audience.
Emil wrote: "These interesting discussions made me think more about Enkidu's creation.Why did the gods create Enkidu in his raw/wild form? Why didn't they create a fully prepared Enkidu? Was it because they s..." "Perhaps Enkidu wasn't truly "wild" or "uncivilised". Maybe he was just a child in a man's body"
The late Thorkild Jacobsen, who explored the epic in the final chapter of The Treasures of Darkness: A History of Mesopotamian Religion, concluded that the whole epic is about the maturation of Gilgamesh.
But alternatively, I wonder: based on the line.Now accomplish what Anu has commanded. Let this creature be the equal of Gilgamesh.Perhaps Enkidu's equality with Gilgamesh isn’t just about strength or status. Gilgamesh has the outward appearance of a civilized king but harbors wildness and recklessness within. Maybe Enkidu, is a man who physically embodies Gilgamesh’s internal self. Additionally, Enkidu seems innately endowed internally with the missing ingredient: a natural sense of justice and morality.
David wrote: "This also reinforces the fact he is being used by the gods as a means to their ends and not being improved for his own benefit...."The Mesopotamian gods rarely do anything purely to benefit others, and when they do they are pretty ruthless about benefiting some at the expense of others.
(view spoiler)
David wrote: "Maybe Enkidu, is a man who physically embodies Gilgamesh’s internal self. Additionally, Enkidu seems innately endowed internally with the missing ingredient: a natural sense of justice and morality."That's an interesting suggestion. But I would reserve judgment on Enkidu's "sense of justice and morality" until we get further into the poem.
Just as an FYI: It is ironic that Gilgamesh recognizes Enkidu needs to be tamed and he sends Shamhat to tame him. What he doesn't realize is that he is the one who needs to be tamed and the gods created Enkidu to tame him.
Gilgamesh in the latter part of Tablet II serves as a kind of archetype for historical kings. Traveling long distances in the face of enemies to bring cedar logs home was a traditional feat of Mesopotamian rulers. The main source of wood at home was the date palm, which was regarded as too valuable to cut in large quantities, and provided inferior wood.
There is some confusion in Mesopotamian sources as to where prime wood was to be found. Some sources locate it in mountains to the east, but it generally seems to refer, at least in later sources, to the Biblically famous Cedars of Lebanon, in the west. This seems to be the case in the Akkadian version. The two Sumerian versions of the Huwawa/Humbaba story are fragmentary (too), and aren’t clear.
I should add that parts of Mesopotamia are too far north for date palms to fruit, so the Assyrians living there made more use of their wood than the Babylonians. The Assyrians also had better access to stone, while the Babylonians lived in an alluvial plain and generally had to import it from a great distance. The great winged and human-headed stone bulls in western museums were an Assyrian development.
Ian wrote: "I should add that parts of Mesopotamia are too far north for date palms to fruit, so the Assyrians living there made more use of their wood than the Babylonians. The Assyrians also had better acces..."Thank you, Ian.
It would be helpful if we can reserve this thread for a discussion of Tablets I & II of the epic poem. Any background material you wish to add in the future should be posted in the Background and Glossary thread.
Thanks, again.
Enkidu's first encounter with Shamhat in Tablet I consists of six days and seven nights of vigorous love-making. Tablet II opens with another six days and seven nights of vigorous love-making. That the same numbers are repeated suggests there must be some significance to those specific numbers. I don't know what it is, but I intend to keep a lookout in case they show up, again.Anyone have any ideas as to what is significant about the numbers six and seven?
My Davis translation says seven days and nights in both places. It seems like there could be a significant difference in meaning between six days and seven nights vs. seven days and seven nights. Either way, it sounds like a full one week cycleFor the space of seven days and seven nights did Enkidu lie with the temple priestess,. . .Maybe six days instead of seven took into account some Assyrian blue law* against sex on a designated day? If they start on a Sunday night, they would get seven consecutive nights and six consecutive days before having to take a break and go to church and read their catechism the following Sunday.
Davis, Gerald J.. Gilgamesh: The New Translation
*(view spoiler)
David wrote: "Maybe six days instead of seven took into account some Assyrian blue law* against sex on a designated day?."That's hilarious, David. You had me laughing out loud. Although me thinks it has nothing to do with Assyrian blue laws but something to do with transformation/changes.
Enkidu undergoes his first transformation after six days and seven nights of sexual activity. But he and Shamhat are still in the wilderness. He undergoes his second transformation after six days and seven nights of sexual activity at the beginning of Tablet II, after which Shamhat clothes him, takes him to the herdmen's camp, and introduces him to bread and beer.
So maybe six and seven are numbers that signify transformation/a change in status. We'll see if they pop up, again, Assyrian blue laws not withstanding : )
Tamara wrote: "David wrote: "Maybe six days instead of seven took into account some Assyrian blue law* against sex on a designated day?."That's hilarious, David."
Ok, 🙄 I guess I better reign in that hypothesis and stick with something similar to the "40 days and 40 nights" from the Bible being used as a period of trial, judgment, or transformation, e.g., 40 days of rain in the Flood, 40 years in the wilderness.
It's intriguing that sex is seen as a civilizing force. I'm more used to seeing it as a force for private intimacy, or for wildness and savagery.
Roger wrote: "It's intriguing that sex is seen as a civilizing force. I'm more used to seeing it as a force for private intimacy, or for wildness and savagery."It is certainly a different way of viewing sexual intercourse. But it has to do with Shamhat’s role as a priestess of Ishtar.
Priestesses of Ishtar were considered sacred prostitutes ("hierodules") but not prostitutes in the sense we think of them. Sacred prostitutes/priestesses represented Ishtar, were employed by the temple, and performed religious rituals for the deity. They were considered mediators between man and the goddess and gave the male access to the goddess through sex. So sexual intercourse with a hierodule was supposedly a transformative experience, a sort of spiritual rebirth.
Gilgamesh sends Shamhat to Enkidu because he recognizes her role as an agent of transformation.
Roger wrote: "It's intriguing that sex is seen as a civilizing force. I'm more used to seeing it as a force for private intimacy, or for wildness and savagery."The roles of childbirth and child rearing may not always be acknowledged in the story itself, but still probably had their effects on the tales, their telling, and the "care giving" of the community. I often find myself returning to the scene from the Iliad of Homer removing his helmet so its plume will not frighten their infant son. Or .. or ... pick the story. Primal - Survival, Freud and Darwin tell us?
(I found myself plotting a timeline of literary passages over the ages, including even Demons and James' elusive ending to POAL.)
I was playing around mentally a bit with the Gilgamesh story in terms of what it might have meant in terms of the territory covered. My "results" were confusing enough that I am not going to try to reconcile/summarize them here, but if any are similarly playing with the text a bit, here can be found a list of American cities and their populations: https://www.census.gov/data/tables/ti... Many of the entries like Cedar Falls, IA; West Fargo, ND; Annapolis, MD; Marlborough, MA, ..., are followed by the word "city", implying they apply only to a specific part of that metropolitan area (populations in the order of 40,000).{See Tamara @49.}
@51Emil wrote: "It's mentioned that Humbaba controlled a territory with a thousand-mile radius. That's a lot, even for such a monster. Maybe Humbaba symbolized another city-state Uruk waged war with or competed against. What do you think?..."Yes, a thousand-mile radius encompasses a large area -- perhaps some hyperbole here? That is a 2,000 mile diameter? {The state of South Dakota is about 400 miles east to west.} More a (forested) region than a forest, a park or a territory?
Lily wrote: "Yes, a thousand-mile radius encompasses a large area -- perhaps some hyperbole here?.."I agree. I don't think the thousand miles is meant to be take literally. I think it is just meant to suggest very long distances.
Tamara wrote: "It is also noteworthy that the animals reject Enkidu after he has had sexual intercourse with Shamhat probably because they can smell the human in him. "My edition's translator suggests that it could be a reference to zoophilia. Since Enkidu now had had sex with a human being he was not accepted by the animals as one of them.
Tamara wrote: "Third, he has to learn how to drink beer and eat bread, which I take to mean that to be a member of the human community, he has to eat food humans eat and “break bread” with others, i.e. participate in the bonding ritual of sharing a meal."It's a curious coincidence that the word "company" (and the related words in the Latin languages or the ones influenced by the latin word), comes from a latin word that means "with bread" suggesting that a companion is a person that you partake in "bread sharing".
Tamara wrote: "Enkidu's first encounter with Shamhat in Tablet I consists of six days and seven nights of vigorous love-making. Tablet II opens with another six days and seven nights of vigorous love-making. That..."It made me remember of Matthew 18:21-22
'Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?” “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven! '
Rafael wrote: "It's a curious coincidence that the word "company" ..., comes from a latin word that means "with bread" suggesting that a companion is a person that you partake in "bread sharing"...."Rafael, you remind me of when I learned this epistemology tidbit:
"Origin of LORD
Middle English lord, loverd, from Old English hlāford, from hlāf bread, loaf + weard keeper, guard — more at loaf, ward"
Merriam-Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, online
A reminder once again of the centrality of food, including that made from grain, to human existence. (Having learned this tidbit about "lord", I am always surprised by how many seem to be unaware of it.)
Oh yeah! Food is, at least was, at the center of human interactions.
Rafael wrote: "It's a curious coincidence that the word "company" (and the related words in the Latin languages or the ones influenced by the latin word), comes from a latin word that means "with bread" suggesting that a companion is a person that you partake in "bread sharing"...."That's really interesting. Thanks for sharing that, Rafael.
Rafael wrote: "It made me remember of Matthew 18:21-22'Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?” “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven! '."
The number seven keeps popping up in the epic. It popped up, again, in this week's reading of Tablets III & IV.
Rafael wrote: "Oh yeah! Food is, at least was, at the center of human interactions."I love what I think you may have implied by "at least was."
Care to expand what you do indeed imply?
I didn't imply anything. I don't know if it is as it used to be. nowadays, drinking is more used as celebrations, at least in western cultures. In more traditional ones, food still is that important when people need to make celebrations or alliances. What you thought? haha Now I am the curious one.
Rafael wrote: "I didn't imply anything. I don't know if it is as it used to be. nowadays, drinking is more used as celebrations, at least in western cultures. In more traditional ones, food still is that importan..."I thought perhaps you were making an allusion to social media and its talking/.... whatever/ interactions, with food less directly involved...
PS -- I also remember the first time I read discussions about the cannibalistic overtones of many human rituals, including ones I always "just" considered sacred. Today, having grown up in the Midwest, I am also reasonably aware of where we have historically heavily recruited for the armies that defend us.I see Gilgamesh and Homer's Iliad as stories/legends on humankind's long journey toward "civilizing" ourselves.
M-W again: "an ideal state of human culture characterized by complete absence of barbarism and nonrational behavior, optimum utilization of physical, cultural, spiritual, and human resources, and perfect adjustment of the individual within the social framework 'true civilization is an ideal to be striven for'" (See a full entry for more.)
To contrast with an excerpt from M-W's definition of the verb "domesticate":
"to adapt (an animal or plant) to life in intimate association with and to the advantage of humans or another species usually by modifying growth and traits through provision of food, protection from enemies, and selective breeding during generations of living in association and often to the extent that the domesticated form loses the ability to survive in nature."
Tamara wrote: "Anyone have any ideas as to what is significant about the numbers six and seven?.."I think that's because the number 7 held significant importance for the Sumerians from mathematical, cosmological, and religious perspectives.
Religion:
The Sumerians believed in a seven-tiered heaven, likely inspired by the seven visible celestial bodies: the Moon, the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. The concept of seven heavens in Jewish and Islamic traditions may also have roots in Babylonian astronomy.
I would go further and say that the reason why the number 7 is almost universally seen as 'lucky' is because of the Babylonians.
Mathematics:
The Sumerians used a sexagesimal (base 60) number system. Dividing by 7 was the first division that resulted in infinitely repeating fractions, pretty cool!
In the sexagesimal system, 6 was a round number, so "6 days and 7 nights" might have sounded satisfying for the Sumerians.
By the way, you might think that a base-60 number system is unnecessarily complicated since we have only 10 fingers. On the contrary, it was very practical, and we still use it today without even noticing it.
Lily wrote: "PS -- I also remember the first time I read discussions about the cannibalistic overtones of many human rituals, including ones I always "just" considered sacred. Today, having grown up in the Midw..."What a great angle to some at this with. It reminds me of J. S. Mill In On Liberty when he tells us that a certain level of maturity, for societies as well as individuals is necessary for Liberty.
The early difficulties in the way of spontaneous progress are so great, that there is seldom any choice of means for overcoming them; and a ruler full of the spirit of improvement is warranted in the use of any expedients that will attain an end, perhaps otherwise unattainable. Despotism is a legitimate mode of government in dealing with barbarians, provided the end be their improvement, and the means justified by actually effecting that end. Liberty, as a principle, has no application to any state of things anterior to the time when mankind have become capable of being improved by free and equal discussion. Until then, there is nothing for them but implicit obedience to an Akbar or a Charlemagne,* if they are so fortunate as to find one.Now I think it is much too early to say liberty is the end goal here. But instead, I think what is being sought is the attainment of a certain level of maturity and wisdom for Gilgamesh that places him on the path of becoming a ruler who is full of the spirit of improvement, like an Akbar or a Charlemagne.
Mill, John Stuart. On Liberty, Utilitarianism and Other Essays (Oxford World's Classics) (p. 13). OUP Oxford. Kindle Edition.
*Akbar or a Charlemagne: Akbar (1542–1605), Mughal emperor from 1556, who tripled the size and wealth of his empire; Charlemagne (742/7?–814), king of the Franks from 768 and from 800 the first emperor of Western Europe since the fall of the Roman Empire.
Emil wrote: "Tamara wrote: "Anyone have any ideas as to what is significant about the numbers six and seven?.."I think that's because the number 7 held significant importance for the Sumerians from mathemati..."
A great post, Emil! Thank you for sharing information on the significance of the numbers 6 and 7. The numbers keep popping up in the tablets. I knew they had to be significant, but I didn't know how or why.
Susanna wrote: "Animals can be so judgy. 😒."haha Right?!
Tamara wrote: "Enkidu’s five-step process of initiation into civilized life is interesting. First, he is initiated through sexual intercourse. This suggests sex was viewed positively by the Babylonians as a civil..."These brought up some loose associations to biblical Eden and the Fall for me: a loss of innocence, a separation from peaceful communion with animals, a need to work for food (bread and beer), and the beginnings of human society rather than isolation. Shamhat's role in initiating this could make her an Eve figure.
Hi all. I'm reengaging with this group after having been away for many years. I'm also a little behind on the reading schedule.Anyway, I'm primarily reading the Sophus Helle translation and lines 142-145 of the second tablet caught my attention.
But the days of men are numbered,
all that we do is nothing but wind.
And there you are -- afraid of death!
What then is the use of your valiant might?
Again, these are some loose associations, but for me this poetic image is linked to several representations
- Genesis 3:19 - "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
- Plato's Socrates in Phaedo arguing for the immortality of the soul and contesting the theory represented by his interlocutors, Simmeas and Cebes - "...you're afraid, as children are, that when the soul emerges from the body, the wind may really puff it away and scatter it..."
- Buffy's literal "dusting" of vampires
- Thanos's snap in Marvel's MCU that dusts half of life
- And, to some extent, this section of Rilke's first Diuno Elegy that he was inspired to write after standing near a cliff edge on a windy day, "...it is strange to inhabit the earth no longer... Strange to no longer desire one's desires. Strange to see meanings that clung together once, floating away in every direction."
It seems the Kansas song "Dust in the Wind" is now rattling around in my head, too.
Of course, the fate of the body and concern for an afterlife are near universal concerns. I'm sure this isn't even scratching the surface of references and intertexts.
Also inherent in Gilgamesh's speech is the idea of the differing values placed on how we use the time in our lives. By hunting the monster Humbaba, Gilgamesh seems to be seeking immortality via fame, which, of course, is a whole other set of possible associations. The counterargument held by Enkidu and the elders is to chill out and live a safe, long, and peaceful life.
Michael wrote: "Hi all. I'm reengaging with this group after having been away for many years. I'm also a little behind on the reading schedule.Anyway, I'm primarily reading the Sophus Helle translation and lines..."
Welcome back, Michael.
You've made some interesting associations with the lines from Gilgamesh. And, yes, he is seeking both immortality and fame but his quest becomes complicated as you will see when you get further into the poem.
It's a very rich and rewarding poem. I hope you will continue reading it and check out the weekly discussions. I will be posting the summary and discussion prompts for the last tablet on Wednesday. But our threads remain open so you're welcome to jump in at any time.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
On Liberty (other topics)The Treasures of Darkness: A History of Mesopotamian Religion (other topics)
Weavers, Scribes, and Kings: A New History of the Ancient Near East (other topics)
That's an interesting proposition. Enkidu is very child-like in many ways. I guess we call him "wild" or "uncivilized" because he lives outside the boundaries of the city which was considered the center of civilization.
The city wall protected the people within it, but it also kept out the dark forces and spooky monsters who lived outside its boundaries. When Gilgamesh decides to leave the city to go after Humbaba, he knows he will be stepping out of the safety and protection of the city and heading into the unknown, the wilderness.
My mind is made up. I will walk
the far road to the home of Humbaba.
I will face an unknown battle,
I will tread an unknown path.