Fringe Fiction Unlimited discussion
This topic is about
The Roads Chosen
Crime/Mystery/Thriller Recs
>
A recognised, unexplained (by science), phenomenon
date
newest »
newest »
Beth said, "I'll find some time this weekend and dig around on the www."
I'll do the same. One of my running mates is a doctor. We're running together Saturday morning.... I'll ask.
I’ve bought the book and read the relevant chapter. It’s now on the top of my WTR pile.My brother gave me the lead on this update......
Parapsychology: the systematic study of alleged psychological phenomena involving the transfer of information or energy that cannot be explained in terms of presently known scientific data or laws. (https://dictionary.apa.org/parapsycho...)
Empathic Death Experience: these experiences might be described as events in which a person suddenly senses the feelings of a loved one on the verge of death many miles away. (https://www.themonastery.org/blog/the...)
Knowing Someone Has Died: Bernard D. Beitman M.D. (https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/bl...)
Beitman named this coincidence pattern "simulpathity," from the Latin word simul, which means “simultaneous,” and the Greek root pathy, which means both “suffering” and “feeling,” as in the words sympathy and empathy. With sympathy (“suffering together”), the sympathetic person is aware of the suffering of the other. With simulpathity, the person involved is not consciously aware of the suffering of the other.
In ways yet to be explained by science, some people may experience and know that a loved one distant from them is dying or has died. Anecdotes and research data suggest this phenomenon is real and deserves further exploration.
THIS IS WORTH HIGHLIGHTING: Beitman states: “With simulpathity, more commonly, people experience the pain or distress of a person who is many miles away.”
In the relevant chapter, we find that since parting ways with Sam, Rebecca has experienced frequent bouts of discomfort.
I’m told by a qualified medical practitioner, ‘This is often talked of in the profession and that it is more widespread than many believe. Some, probably for fear of being ridiculed, may not come forward. This is all anecdotal.’ https://www.quora.com/If-someone-you-...
Beth and I spoke: I suggest I have a peek, she is a little busy at the mo'....In the USA, during WWII, commonly next of kin were informed of a serviceperson’s death by a military officer or other representative, who would present with a formal telegram or letter confirming the loss. The visit also provided families with important details about the circumstances of death and any subsequent arrangements regarding burial or repatriation.
In the UK, other than in specific cases, next of kin were informed of a serviceperson’s death by a telegram boy. Armed with a bicycle these boys, most between 13 and 17 years of age, would hand the telegram over and be on their way.
If there is evidence, I would have thought it be more likely to come from those on the other side of the pond. Anyone?
Thank you Jenny: my g-uncle died some years later from natural causes: he never worked after the injuries he suffered. He was a family man and devoted to his wife. My g-aunt died soon after: it was accepted by the family, she died of a broken heart.Thank you everyone for the posts.
Thank you Gail (please say thanks to your brother from me) - THIS IS WORTH HIGHLIGHTING: Beitman states: “With simulpathity, more commonly, people experience the pain or distress of a person who is many miles away.” That does give credence to the 'simulpathity' 'sixth sense' Rebecca experiences.
Mary wrote: "Beth and I spoke: I suggest I have a peek, she is a little busy at the mo'....In the USA, during WWII, commonly next of kin were informed of a serviceperson’s death by a military officer or other..."
Thanks for that, Mary. The two differing approaches are worth noting.
Mod
Anchali said:
My great aunt was at home when her husband was injured, he was a builder and at work and she knew. In those days not everyone had a phone at home. A police officer ..."
Hey Beth, I love the participation and thread you created here as it really got people commenting. If you've read any more books recently please feel free to create a thread in the proper spot and discuss.
Thanks Charlie for putting this up and thank you to all who've put a little more meat on the bone: all very intriguing. I've just taken a look at Beitman: when do we recognise an event as factual and not anecdotal? Mya has just posted another anecdotal event. Iain has posted a comment. I would put it to all, Mya's retelling of what happened is way beyond anecdotal. Iain has asked Mya to post her comment here.
Hello everyone. Please read about me on the 'Introduce Yourself' topic.Yesterday, I posted the following to a comment to Anchali's progress update to the book she is/was reading....
My grandmother worked on an assembly line. She sat next to the same women day-in-day-out for years and years. One day the women dropped her tools onto the work table and turned to my grandmother. She said, "It's my husband. He's dead." She was taken to a manager's office and sat down to rest. An hour later the police arrived at her place of work. That is a true story. It was a small town. My mother said, "Everyone talked of it."
My mother and I took a bus ride yesterday and spent the evening with my grandmother. She can confirm all I have said. She said, "The woman was white as snow and barely able to stand from her chair."
My grandmother has another tale to tell: I took notes....
When she was in her twenties, newly married, a school friend of her had married a few years before her. The woman's husband, against better advice, took to the forest for a weekend of hunting (this is common in Finland and usually done by pairs or small groups - he went in alone). Heavy snow came in on the Friday night. Saturday she took to feeling unwell and after a few hours she went to the house of her husband's brother. She told him her husband was injured and in need of help. Finland's hunting is well managed. The brother spoke to the local hunting club, the hunting club contacted the hunters' association and along with the local rescue unit and the police a search party went out. The wife insisted on going along. The vehicles were parked where the road entered the forest. After the search party took off, she walked the track and after a few hours (the ground by then was covered in deep snow) she stopped pointed down into a ravine and said, "He's down there." She had no way of knowing, she said she could sense it. A few hours later he was found exactly where she had said, he was unconscious with a broken leg. She knew he was in need of help and she knew where he was. How did she know?
My grandmother believes that this sense was more common years ago. People grew up together, school, sports, work. They spent time together (no such thing as television or the scourge of social media). People had a sense for each other. Peoples thoughts were for each other. When people left the community for work, for the military, for adventure, they were missed and talked of, thought of, remembered.
Take a moment to read Ellie's comment: it would not surprise me if that woman had known of her future husband from school, or as a friend, from a very young age.
If last week you had asked me about ghosts, I would have laughed at the thought. I served as a military police officer and remain on the reserve: I have always seen myself as pragmatic.
Is there a sense, an energy, an understanding, that exists between some people?
Thank you Mya for your post. Your grandmother's belief is interesting: 'they were missed and talked of, thought of, remembered.'Before the days of digital connectivity when someone went off to war, on an adventure, to work in distant parts..... were they thought of, kept in mind, far more, and, more tangibly? You would know little of what was happening to them, how they were getting along. Your news would be more likely to be from a letter, maybe an occasional phone call, and so your thoughts might, for those that are close, be more inquiring and constant.
I'm verging toward the more crazy, but if your thoughts are reaching out, wanting to know, wanting some idea of the person, does that explain something?
I'm just putting that on the table: don't mock me. I'm not thinking of sitting with a Ouiga board on my knee.
I doubt you'll be mocked, Gisela. Most would shy from even hinting at what you've said. From reading the posts, I'd say these happenings are more than hearsay. Kori is spot on: at what point do we accept that a happening is not anecdotal? Science would insist proof is required. I'd argue science should not be the adjudicator. Who could argue against the woman on the production line?What is amazing is that a book centred on the Russian underworld can prompt such a discussion as this. Those that have contributed should be applauded.
I really enjoy the banter, Finn. We're getting to know each other from swapping thoughts and opinions. It is quite amazing, and, fun.
This needs a little context. My hubby and I worked in London for an organisation that wanted their people to network with each other, that team building motive. Regular out of work shindigs: barbecues, hill walks, the all too frequent evening soiree. Over a few years we spent some time with a married couple that we grew to know and liked: the wife in the partnership did not work with us. This is all second-hand, told by the wife in question to me and several other wives once the husband's philandering was exposed. The husband told the wife he had to work the weekend (that was common and would not raise an eyebrow). He uses the excuse to go off with a younger version (the 'young' lady in question did not work with us). His wife wakes late on the Friday night with intense stomach cramps. She said, "As soon as I woke, I knew." She dressed, and wandered the streets, always going further away from her house and in one general direction. She said, "I had no idea where to go, but I knew what direction to go in." She stopped at a house miles from hers; a house she had no previous knowledge of. She said, "I knew he was inside. I could feel it." At six o'clock in the morning she starts knocking on the door, she kept this up in a loud and aggressive manner. Her husband opened the door. She could not explain how it was she knew. She was in bits for weeks and weeks and although we only have her word, she was adamant that she had no suspicion of his wandering eye before the 'night of doom'. Can that be explained away?
I've just read up on the Beitman work: Wow! I always assumed talk of this, you do hear people talk of it, was just uncorroborated gossip. It's closer to an unexplained phenomena! Beitman states: “With simulpathity, more commonly, people experience the pain or distress of a person who is many miles away.”
Charlie states: 'That does give credence to the simulpathity Rebecca experiences.
Mya's grandmother and the injured forester - That gives credence......
Based on the information posted, I think we should classify this as a recognisable phenomenon.'That’s big.' - I've seen the film.
When I was in training, during a boozy night we talked of this. Nobody that I know has first-hand experience, but it does get talked about. Jimp has said the same.Radar (of MASH fame) is based upon a real person (Donald Shaffer). Shaffer is talked about often when I'm with the military reserve: it is believed he could sense the impending arrival of incoming casualties, not as the helicopters crested the hill line, but 15, 20, 30 minutes before the helicopters came into view.
Crikes! That's a really interesting discussion. I can't recall the details but I think I read somewhere or heard that someone about to board an aircraft decided while at the gate not to board and told the staff his sense told him not to board and the plane did crash. That might not be exact, but I think it's near enough. Can anyone remember that?
Charlie, thank you for kicking this off. I probably shouldn't say as the stories are sad stories, but this is so interesting.Folk talk of soulmates, life mates and I sure there are other terms. I can't help but wonder what that would be like: to find someone you are so in sync with.
Finn said, "What is amazing is that a book centred on the Russian underworld can prompt such a discussion as this."This is a great discussion. I wish more men would chip in. Chatting about this story is wonderful.
"I wish more men would chip in." Well said, Donna. Maybe our banter is a little too intimidating!
I have had several precognitive dreams, mostly about someone about to die. I dreamed three times in a row my father was about to die. Two other people in different cities had their own version of the dream and it is us communicating that got someone out there to check. He was in his 60s and it was unexpected. I guess he was a loudmouth when he was leaving.
Great discussion. Thanks Belle for sharing.I'm not versed in the specifics, but I'm of the mind I've read of gut-feeling being linked to subconscious indicators that you pick up (the example being your man is having an affair: body language, tone of voice, etc).
On occasions, I have wild dreams: ghosts, goblins, dragons, my husband falling off a cliff (he used to do that crazy stuff before I got a grip of him). On one occasion, I woke him up and said, "Don't you dare think you can go back to being a mountain goat." He swore he had no such intentions.
Are dreams (most dreams - not all dreams) also linked to subconscious indicators. Can anyone put some meat on that?
'I can't help but wonder what that would be like: to find someone you are so in sync with.'That was my immediate thought: 'What would that be like?' I imagine holding someone's hand, knowing we would be together until our final day.
I've been running around with my hair on fire and missed all of this. I've just finished book 3. Is the essence of this....'People grew up together... They spent time together... People had a sense for each other. Peoples thoughts were for each other. When people left the community for work, for the military, for adventure, they were missed and talked of, thought of, remembered.'
I wonder if the psychologists have looked hard at that. Gail?
I bet this is true: 'When people left the community for work, for the military, for adventure, they were missed and talked of, thought of, remembered.'My grandparents still talk of those they knew that were lost in the last war. Still today, when we have dinner with them, they raise a glass to everyone. My grandmother remembers them every evening before she turns in. I would bet they 'were missed and talked of, thought of, and remembered every day.'
"I wish more men would chip in."This a really interesting discussion. I had no idea of the depth these ideas of a 'sixth sense' are studied. I have no personal experience or knowledge. All I can do is say how I really appreciate your willingness to share the information you have.
My mother wrote letters to her mother from the day she flit the nest. I did the same for the first few years, I'm ashamed to say. My brother bought my mother a computer and we tried to nudge her toward 'the new world'. She continues to write to me, I answer by phone call.My mother's argument is: 'When writing a letter you need to sit and think of the recipient, what you want to say, what they will want to know and how to word your message.'
Kelly said. 'When people left the community....., thought of, remembered.'
Your thoughts will be welcomed.
I don't know what to think, Faye. There's some very interesting and indeed philosophical comments. I'm having lunch with the family tomorrow. I'll broach this.
Sunday lunch at the start/end of the month is a family thing. I go because I love my grandparents and my uncle is delicious. I broached the subject during coffee. The conversation went on for a good while; a while later after dinner wine was had. If you've ever guzzled the after dinner glogg after the during dinner plonk, you know how things can go. Excluding the little ones and my generation, all of the more wrinkly ones knew of this, have heard of this, have an understanding. Nobody had any first hand experience but there were no shocked or amazed responses; it was more of a shrugged shoulder and a 'yeah'.
A great discussion. I'm glad I caught up with it.'... imagine holding someone's hand, knowing you would be together until your final days.'
It does make me wonder.
Thank you everyone for putting into the discussion; I never thought it would stir up so much interest.Thanks Gail; the Beitman research is well worth knowing of.
I've missed all of this. Wow. I thought the tummy trouble was a seed planted so that later down the line Rebecca could tell her father, 'He's not dead.'I had no idea that this was a recognisable phenomenon; that’s big!
I know the film Meg is talking about. I've watched it a dozen times.
Anchali wrote: "Thank you everyone for putting into the discussion; I never thought it would stir up so much interest.Thanks Gail; the Beitman research is well worth knowing of."
Not a problem, I hope it helped. I do enjoy discussions off the books we read.
Mya said: 'When people left ...., they were missed and talked of, thought of, remembered.'I've spent some time thinking about Rebecca: Sam left, he was missed, he was NOT talked of, but he was thought of day-in-day-out, and he was remembered every day. She tells us that: the beanbag, the room she decorated... am I wanting it to be true, or, is it?
"... Thanks Gail; the Beitman research is well worth knowing of."I'm amazed by this (Beitman): a great discussion. I can't imagine where this might go when chatting while wine is being had.
Maya said, "I know the film Meg is talking about. I've watched it a dozen times."Maya; please tell. And, please look at the discussion on FF: "How else would you realistically expose such an incredible scheme to an outsider?"
Cal said, Jan said, 'All it takes is a sharp mind and an ability to join the dots.' "Oh my god!" "Looks right." Name the film...'
Anyone?
Meg said, "Based on the information posted, I think we should classify this as a recognisable phenomenon. 'That’s big.' - I've seen the film."The film: Spotlight. - The Boston Globe story about the cover-up by the church of pedophile priests: a former priest, now a psychoanalyst, tells the character played by Mark Ruffalo ''... it's a recognisable phenomenon' then adds, "That's big."
Mark Ruffalo
Michael Keaton
Rachel McAdams
Liev Schreiber
John Slattery
Stanley Tucci
I watched it again, just to be sure.
Mary said, '... please look at the discussion on FF: "How else would you realistically expose such an incredible scheme to an outsider?"'"Doing it now, Boss. Doing it now." - name the film.
BTW - I just love this banter. I'm grinning like a Cheshire Cat.
Knocked out the park for a six, Maya. I've not seen that many films, I'm at a loss....
Really interesting. I'm sorry, I've been out of it for a while. Thank you everyone for putting this up and also for the great comments.Your input, Gail, does give the discussion jet fuel. Please thank your brother from me. I've known people talk of this phenomenon, but never have I heard of any research or recognition of its occurrence: I'm most grateful to you.
Film: Cool Hand Luke, starring Paul Newman. Prison drama, if one of the guards gave an order to a prisoner, they would immediately answer: "Doing it now, Boss. Doing it now."
A great discussion.Thank you Gail for the reference to Beitman's work. I will look at that. I know people where I work who will be very keen to know of this.
Hi Kamil, Iain, lovely to see you here. All of this is great information. I'm so glad it was put up. I made everyone at work aware of the discussion and Beitman; lots of interest in the subject.
Anchali said:
My great aunt was at home when her husband was injured, he was a builder and at work and she knew. In those days not everyone had a phone at home. A police officer knocked on the door: she was sat waiting, coat on, bag packed and said to the officer, "I know." She even knew it was his arm that was damaged and he'd been taken to hospital. She said, "I felt it."
She died a week after he died.
Bianca replied:
I've liked it to share it, not because I like what Charlie has posted. I've heard of this. When the author brings the phenomenon into play (page 41), I did sit and think for a time. Is there anyone out there who can add to this?
Mike Winters posted:
Someone, I'm 99% sure, on GR has mentioned this phenomenon and having first-hand/second-hand knowledge of it. I've looked but cannot find the post. It is something that does get talked of. Anyone?
Ellie added:
A few months before I joined the care home staff a resident passed before the morning change over. Trying to be considerate, the staff waited for a short time before phoning his wife. There was no answer. They tried a few times. She had gone to neighbour and asked for transport. They arrived at the home: she knew. She told the staff when he died. It is still talked of today when a resident passes on.
Gail informed us:
Just now, I'm unable to give you the data. I'll ask my brother. He's a psychologist. We spoke of this when he was an undergrad. It's a recognised, unexplained (by science), phenomenon. There is data, a large amount anecdotal. It must be on the Net somewhere. Recordable data came out of the Great Wars: wives: brothers, sisters, knowing of the death, injury of the other before they were told by the authorities. Also, in WW2, soldiers overseas knew a loved one had been killed/injured in the blitz...... Anyone?
I've put this up for wider viewing. Can anyone added to this?