Classics and the Western Canon discussion
James — The Portrait of a Lady
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Week 8 — Chapters 38-42
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I’m sorry for posting this a day late, especially since there is so much to talk about. With the holiday, I got the dates muddled.
Apparently, although Ned Rosier covets some of Osmond’s collection, he doesn’t always admire his taste:” They went in together; Rosier really thought the room very ugly, and it seemed cold. The same idea appeared to have struck Pansy. 'It's not for winter evenings; it's more for summer, she said. 'It's papa's taste; he has so much.'
He had a good deal, Rosier thought; but some of it was very bad. He looked about him; he hardly knew what to say in such a situation.” Chapter 38
Susan wrote: "Is Pansy’s closeness to Isabel part of her attraction for Lord Warburton?"I think so. Ralph seems to think so as well, and while Warburton acts offended at the suggestion, he may not be fully conscious of his own motivation. When Ralph asks him if he really likes Pansy, Warburton calls her "a delightful little person," and then points out the difference in their ages. He then asks Ralph if he thinks Isabel would be pleased if he married Pansy. It's an interesting train of thought.
And why would Warburton be interested in Pansy anyway? If Isabel is Warburton's "type", Pansy is almost the opposite.
@2 Susan wrote: "I’m sorry for posting this a day late, especially since there is so much to talk about. With the holiday, I got the dates muddled."Susan, as a reader, I do not consider a moderator to be obligated to summarize a section, but appreciate that you have so faithfully and thoughtfully done so.
Thomas wrote: "I think so. Ralph seems to think so as well, and while Warburton acts offended at the suggestion, he may not be fully concious of this own motivation."May be true, but that's being gracious to the consciousness of a man of the world (when the sun did not set on the English empire)? I'm more cynical and see W here as a tool of James to keep W and all he can represent in the integral story-line. (And I happen to feel James does so very cleverly here -- perhaps less "clunky' than his later use of another character to deliver a vital message. It is so fun to occasionally slip into playing the role of the writer creating this book. Yes, I understand in some ways that is adding another perhaps indefensible interpretation to a reading already asking for so many -- but you know my hypothesis that James' own biography is embedded in parts of this story. No, I'm not going to try to defend that hypothesis here...)
Thomas wrote: "Susan wrote: "Is Pansy’s closeness to Isabel part of her attraction for Lord Warburton?"I think so. Ralph seems to think so as well, and while Warburton acts offended at the suggestion, he may no..."
I can’t figure Lord Warburton out. He does ask to be introduced to Pansy before he knows her relationship to Isabel, so there does seem to be some attraction on his part. And he did fall in love and propose to Isabel after only a few meetings, so there’s a certain impetuosity in his behavior in both situations. Perhaps he is rebounding from Isabel to someone who is her opposite in many ways. Or maybe Ralph is right as he sometimes is.
I get the feeling that Warburton doesn't take much pride in his social position -- as Roger pointed out earlier in the discussion, he is what we would today call a limousine liberal. He has a conscience, and he's not going to give it all up, but he doesn't live for status as Osmond seems to do. Warburton seems to be a romantic, much like Ned Rosier, except he has what Rosier needs (wealth) and finds that it isn't what Isabel wants. Which raises the central question, what does Isabel want after all? (And this is the question that keeps me reading...)
I'm with you Thomas, what does Isabel want now that her marriage seems to be irrevocably broken? I thought she wanted to repair it but I am not so sure now.Poor Warburton. He is still in love with Isabel and has vacillated on trying to be near her. I also agree with Susan that Pansy is the opposite of Isabel, and I am not sure what he sees in her that would make her attractive to him as a wife. He certainly hasn't expressed even the idea that he needs an heir which might be a motivation for marrying especially someone much younger than himself.
In chapiter 39, there is an interesting quote (Ralph is analysing Osmond's character, and it's pretty damning):He recognised Osmond, as I say; he recognised him at every turn. He saw how he kept all things within limits; how he adjusted, regulated, animated their manner of life. Osmond was in his element; at last he had material to work with. He always had an eye to effect, and his effects were deeply calculated. They were produced by no vulgar means, but the motive was as vulgar as the art was great. To surround his interior with a sort of invidious sanctity, to tantalise society with a sense of exclusion, to make people believe his house was different from every other, to impart to the face that he presented to the world a cold originality—this was the ingenious effort of the personage to whom Isabel had attributed a superior morality. “He works with superior material,” Ralph said to himself; “it’s rich abundance compared with his former resources.” Ralph was a clever man; but Ralph had never—to his own sense—been so clever as when he observed, in petto, that under the guise of caring only for intrinsic values Osmond lived exclusively for the world. Far from being its master as he pretended to be, he was its very humble servant, and the degree of its attention was his only measure of success. He lived with his eye on it from morning till night, and the world was so stupid it never suspected the trick. Everything he did was pose—pose so subtly considered that if one were not on the lookout one mistook it for impulse. Ralph had never met a man who lived so much in the land of consideration. His tastes, his studies, his accomplishments, his collections, were all for a purpose.
I'm inclined to agree with Ralph here, but he's not without bias himself. Do you think Osmond is as terrible as described here? He does treat his daughter as if she were another trinket in his collection, so...
La_mariane wrote: "I'm inclined to agree with Ralph here, but he's not without bias himself. Do you think Osmond is as terrible as described here? He does treat his daughter as if she were another trinket in his collection, so ..."I think Osmond’s character is slowly revealed —through Ralph and Isabel’s analyses in this reading and also by his behavior and interactions with other characters throughout the book. His interest in having Lord Warburton marry Pansy seems to support Ralph’s analysis that Osmond “lives for the world,” in this case money and social position. He doesn’t seem to have any interest in what Pansy wants. Osmond’s cold treatment of Ned Rosier involves a pose, too—he implies to him that Pansy isn’t in love with him anymore. And while Rosier isn’t rich, he isn’t poor either—he’s just not fabulously rich and a lord.
Susan wrote: "La_mariane wrote: "I'm inclined to agree with Ralph here, but he's not without bias himself. Do you think Osmond is as terrible as described here? He does treat his daughter as if she were another ..."I also think Osmond doesn't like Rosier because Rosier is a pale copy of Osmond himself : a collector, and American expat, not very wealthy but has pretention to wealth, ... I think Osmond doesn't like the image Rosier reflects.
Thomas wrote: "Susan wrote: "Is Pansy’s closeness to Isabel part of her attraction for Lord Warburton?"I think so. Ralph seems to think so as well, and while Warburton acts offended at the suggestion, he may no..."
I was rereading Chapter 42 looking for something else and found this agreement with Ralph’s take from Isabel — ” The suggestion from another [Osmond] that she had a definite influence on Lord Warburton— this had given her the start that accompanies unexpected recognition. Was it true that there was something still between them that might be a handle to make him declare himself to Pansy—a susceptibility, on his part, to approval, a desire to do what would please her? Isabel had hitherto not asked herself the question, because she had not been forced; but now that it was directly presented to her she saw the answer, and the answer frightened her. Yes, there was something—something on Lord Warburton's part.” And further on, “She asked herself with dismay whether Lord Warburton were pretending to be in love with Pansy in order to cultivate another satisfaction and what might be called other chances. Of this refinement of duplicity she presently acquitted him; she preferred to believe him in perfect good faith. But if his admiration for Pansy were a delusion this was scarcely better than its being an affectation.”
Susan wrote: "How is Isabel dealing with her unhappy marriage?”My take is that at this point, Isabel is trying to make the best of her marriage without blaming anyone. “Her poor winged spirit had always had a great desire to do its best, and it had not as yet been seriously discouraged. It wished, therefore, to hold fast to justice—not to pay itself by petty revenges. To associate Madame Merle with its disappointment would be a petty revenge—especially as the pleasure to be derived from that would be perfectly insincere. It might feed her sense of bitterness, but it would not loosen her bonds. It was impossible to pretend that she had not acted with her eyes open; if ever a girl was a free agent she had been. A girl in love was doubtless not a free agent; but the sole source of her mistake had been within herself. There had been no plot, no snare; she had looked and considered and chosen. When a woman had made such a mistake, there was only one way to repair it— just immensely (oh, with the highest grandeur!) to accept it.” Chapter 40
But as the reader knows, there was a plot, and it was spearheaded by a seemingly close friend. Isabel’s resolution to blame no one but herself is based on incomplete information.
Chris wrote: "Poor Warburton. He is still in love with Isabel and has vacillated on trying to be near her. I also agree with Susan that Pansy is the opposite of Isabel, and I am not sure what he sees in her that would make her attractive to him as a wife. He certainly hasn't expressed even the idea that he needs an heir which might be a motivation for marrying especially someone much younger than himself."I was wondering too if the need for an heir was factoring into Lord Warburton’s thoughts. It’s not stated as far as I can find, but it seems like a possibility.
La_mariane wrote: "I also think Osmond doesn't like Rosier because Rosier is a pale copy of Osmond himself : a collector, and American expat, not very wealthy but has pretention to wealth, ... I think Osmond doesn't like the image Rosier reflects.."I’ll have to check, but I believe Rosier has more money than Osmond did prior to his marriage. Maybe that’s another reason why Osmond doesn’t like him?
Money, Money, MoneyOne of the fascinations of A Portrait of a Lady for me is the openness about money, at least for select characters.
There’s Lord Warburton. Mr Touchett tells Isabel “'Lord Warburton's a very amiable young man—a very fine young man. He has a hundred thousand a year. He owns fifty thousand acres of the soil of this little island and ever so many other things besides. He has half a dozen houses to live in.” (Chapter 8). The 100,000 pounds a year is presumably just his income which is derived from his land and other assets. In other words, he’s very very wealthy.
There’s Isabel. She initially had an income of a few hundred a year as Ralph explains to his father when he asks him to give Isabel half of his inheritance. (Isabel is comparatively poor to the Touchetts, but richer than most people who don’t have any income except what they work for). She then inherits 70,000 pounds from Mr Touchett and would get an annual income from that depending how her money is invested. The book does not tell us, but if she were getting 8 percent return, her annual income would be about 5,600 pounds.
Then there’s Ned Rosier. His income is 40,000 francs a year, which translates to 1,600 pounds. The amount of his capital/assets isn’t given, but if he were getting 8 percent return, his assets would be worth around 20,000 pounds.
Then, there are the characters where money amounts are not given, but we get a sense of relative incomes.
Caspar Goodwood comes from a well to do family and manages the family business. He was the son of a proprietor of well-known cotton-mills in Massachusetts—a gentleman who had accumulated a considerable fortune in the exercise of this industry. Caspar at present managed the works, and with a judgement and a temper which, in spite of keen competition and languid years, had kept their prosperity from dwindling…. He had thus discovered in himself a sharp eye for the mystery of mechanics, and had invented an improvement in the cotton-spinning process which was now largely used and was known by his name.”
Henrietta Stackpole writes to support herself. We’re not given any specific income, but are told that Isabel “ esteemed the courage, energy and good-humour of the writer, who, without parents and without property, had adopted three of the children of an infirm and widowed sister and was paying their school-bills out of the proceeds of her literary labour.“
Gilbert Osmond is initially described by Madame Merle as one of the most delightful men she knows, but he has “No career, no name, no position, no fortune, no past, no future, no anything”. It appears that before his marriage to Isabel, he had a small income based on an inheritance from his father.
Madame Merle apparently also has no fortune and is a bit of a parasite, stretching her small income by staying with her friends and making herself agreeable.
The Countess Gemini’s background is described by Madame Merle: ”The Count was a member of an ancient Tuscan family, but of such small estate that he had been glad to accept Amy Osmond, in spite of the questionable beauty which had yet not hampered her career, with the modest dowry her mother was able to offer—a sum about equivalent to that which had already formed her brother's share of their patrimony. Count Gemini since then, however, had inherited money, and now they were well enough off, as Italians went, though Amy was horribly extravagant.”
Susan wrote: "She then inherits 70,000 pounds from Mr Touchett and would get an annual income from that depending how her money is invested. The book does not tell us, but if she were getting 8 percent return, her annual income would be about 5,600 pounds.."Fascinating overview, and I think it matters. Money is the fuel that makes the plot move, though I think personality and character determine the direction it goes. Thanks for providing this!
Robert B. Pippin says in this lecture that 70,000 pounds at the time amounts to several hundred million dollars today, and it would have made Isabel one of the wealthiest women in Europe at the time.
Spoiler alert:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMgw7...
Thomas wrote: "Susan wrote: "She then inherits 70,000 pounds from Mr Touchett and would get an annual income from that depending how her money is invested. The book does not tell us, but if she were getting 8 per..."Thanks for the link! I look forward to hearing Professor Pippin’s thoughts
Thomas wrote: "Susan wrote: "She then inherits 70,000 pounds from Mr Touchett and would get an annual income from that depending how her money is invested. The book does not tell us, but if she were getting 8 per..."Interesting lecture by Prof. Pippin. I was intrigued by the historical perspective on social change and the novel’s happenings. I disagreed with him though over who is the best character in the novel. I’d put Mr Touchett first and Isabel second ;).
I like Pippin's observations -- especially what he says about the "progressive" Americans vs. the "dying" Europeans in the story -- but I can't agree with his conclusion, which seems to be that Isabel chooses Osmond because he is unconventional, a social outsider, and this satisfies her sense of independence. I actually think it's the opposite. Pippin at one point calls Osmond a "bum", which I won't argue with, but Osmond doesn't think of himself that way -- he says he is "convention itself." I think there's a deeper psychological and philosophical reason for her choice, rather than the rebellious independence that Pippin suggests.
I think there's a deeper psychological and philosophical reason for her choice, rather than the rebellious independence that Pippin suggests. I agree with you, especially since sticking with her first plan (ie not marrying) would have been far more rebellious for the time.
La_mariane wrote: "I think there's a deeper psychological and philosophical reason for her choice, rather than the rebellious independence that Pippin suggests. I agree with you, especially since sticking with her ..."
I think so, too.
I also don’t buy the theory that James is contrasting Europeans with Americans. He did exactly that in some of his books, but here the only authentic Europeans are Lord Warburton and Mr Bantling. The rest are either Americans visiting Europe or American expatriates. Perhaps, the contrast is between Americans not affected by Europe (Goodwood, Henrietta, maybe Isabel) and those Americans who are, to one degree or another. The Touchetts seem to be less affected, maybe because their American roots were kept alive by Ralph’s education and Mrs Touchett’s frequent trips to the US. Madame Merle and Osmond have left their American roots behind and are living abroad full time.
The Touchetts’ relationship with Isabel is not as close as it was due to their disapproval of her marriage. Ralph has only seen her a few times since then, and the last time, he left Rome because he suspected he was becoming a point of contention between Isabel and Osmond. This time, after a few weeks in Rome, he decides he won’t go to Sicily; he’s not well enough for the trip and he wants to see more of Isabel. Lord Warburton also plans to stay in Rome; he tells Ralph he’s seriously interested in Pansy. Ralph asks Lord Warburton ”’I hope you're sure that among Miss Osmond's merits her being—a—so near her stepmother isn't a leading one?'
'Good heavens, Touchett!' cried Lord Warburton angrily, 'for what do you take me?'”
Madame Merle has been frequently absent from Rome since Isabel and Osmond’s marriage. She explains to Isabel she is keeping her distance to avoid presuming on her prior acquaintance with Osmond. Isabel has thought about Mrs Touchett’s allegation that Madame Merle made her marriage and is still inclined to discount it, but one day returning from a carriage ride with Pansy, she has an impression that she has surprised Madame Merle and Osmond in a moment of intimate conversation. Madame Merle tells Isabel she has come to talk about Mr Rosier. She also wants to know about Lord Warburton’s interest in Pansy and suggests that Isabel use her influence with him in Pansy’s favor.
Lord Warburton visits that evening. He spends time talking to Isabel and then to Pansy. Isabel is a bit surprised that Lord Warburton is seriously attracted to Pansy but decides to do what she can to help his cause in the hope of pleasing her husband. Afterwards, Osmond tells her he thinks it would be a great marriage, and he has warned Mr Rosier off. Whatever Pansy wants is not important; she will do what pleases her father. He tells Isabel to use her influence with Lord Warburton and to remember how much he counts on her.
After he leaves, Isabel muses, remembers, and ponders many questions. Is Lord Warburton still attracted to her? Why does she mistrust her husband? Why does Osmond seem to hate her? Why did she decide to marry him? Why is he so angry over the time she spends visiting with Ralph? And what exactly is the relationship between Madame Merle and Osmond? In her musings in Chapter 42, she fills in many of the gaps in the story since her marriage, although some still remain.
Pansy is being courted by Ned Rosier and Lord Warburton. Madame Merle, Osmond, and Isabel all have thoughts about who Pansy should marry. What do you think? Is Pansy’s closeness to Isabel part of her attraction for Lord Warburton?
In these chapters, we get both Ralph’s and Isabel’s thoughts on Gilbert Osmond and his marriage to Isabel. How is Isabel dealing with her unhappy marriage?
Did anything in these chapters especially surprise or intrigue you?