Classics and the Western Canon discussion
James — The Portrait of a Lady
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Week 2 — Chapters 7-12
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Susan wrote: "...Ralph’s thoughts reflect the social situation of 1881, .."Can we describe the "boundaries" or "key characteristics" of the relevant "social situations" of the characters? Certainly wealth? But also ???
I just encountered a discussion of the changes James made in the character of Harriet Stackpole between two editions of PoaL. Won't cite it now, but an indication to me of the careful thought James put into the creation of his characters and what he wanted them to be for his readers (even though those readers may not uniformly decode the implications James may have wanted them to observe).
Somehow James strikes me as similar to his brother in assiduously observing and documenting the world he perceives people as experiencing as they go about their lives.
Susan wrote: "What are Isabel’s intentions, and what is she going to do with her life? Do you think Isabel knows the answer to Ralph’s questions?Why do you think she turned down Lord Warburton?"It's not clear that Isabel has intentions, or that she wants them. There is an interesting passage toward the beginning of Chapter 12 where the narrator tells us a little about her feelings regarding Warburton:
A certain instinct, not imperious, but persuasive, told her to resist -- murmured to her that virtually she had a system and an orbit of her own. It told her other things besides -- things which both contradicted and confirmed each other; that a girl might do much worse than trust herself to such a man...
It doesn't sound like she is making decisions based on principle, or that she has a plan for how she wants her life to play out. She is like many young people who want to see what the world has to offer before making a commitment.
Later, in the same paragraph, the narrator admonishes the reader:
Smile not, however, I venture to repeat, at this simple young woman from Albany who debated whether she should accept an English peer before he had offered himself and who was disposed to believe that on the whole she could do better. She was a person of great good faith, and if there was a great deal of folly in her wisdom those who judge her severely may have the satisfaction of finding that, later, she became consistently wise only at the cost of an amount of folly which will constitute almost a direct appeal to charity.
Does she really think she can do better than Warburton?
I also wonder if there is something about being desired that Isabel finds off-putting. In Chapter 5, Isabel expresses admiration for Mrs. Touchett because she "doesn't expect one to like her. She doesn't care whether one does or not." Ralph calls this perverse; of course everyone wants to be liked. But not caring can be a way of maintaining one's independence.
I have cautiously come to the conclusion that Henry James's favorite word is "invidious."
Susan wrote: The opening chapters present three “specimens” of American women: Mrs Touchett, Isabel Archer, and Henrietta Stackpole. Are there any characteristics they have in common? They each are independent in their own way. Mrs. Touchett is an older wealthy woman whose husband has no desire to dominate her and therefore she seems to have no reins on her behavior. She chooses to live independently (to a degree) from her husband.
Henrietta is an example of the "new" woman who has found independence through a professional life outside of the home or a traditional female role. She makes her own money which allows her some freedoms.
Isabel is on the threshold of her adult life, and I agree with Thomas that she doesn't act with intention. She has been left alone to do what she wants until Mrs. Touchett took her under her wing and is now having to examine her life and future. Mrs. T certainly has led her to believe that she can have an independent type of life without depending on a man. I'm not sure that is truthful for Isabel without some sort of financial support from someone. Once again Thomas hit the nail on the head about her comment about thinking she could do better than Warburton. In those times, Warburton seems like an excellent choice for a husband.
Thomas wrote: "I have cautiously come to the conclusion that Henry James's favorite word is "invidious.""Lol. The expression I associate with Henry James is “hung fire.” I’m not sure we’ve encountered it yet ;). But “invidious” is a good choice, too.
Lily wrote: "Susan wrote: "...Ralph’s thoughts reflect the social situation of 1881, .."Can we describe the "boundaries" or "key characteristics" of the relevant "social situations" of the characters? Certainly wealth? But also ???
I was referring to the social situation of women in general and Isabel in particular. In 1881 when the novel was published, women in both the UK and the US had very limited legal rights regardless of their social class. There’s a link to more info on this topic over on the background thread.
Thomas wrote: "It's not clear that Isabel has intentions, or that she wants them. There is an interesting passage toward the beginning of Chapter 12 where the narrator tells us a little about her feelings regarding Warburton:”You make a good point, but my take is a little different. I agree she doesn’t have specific intentions. What she has seems to be a kind of personal potential which both her older sister and Ralph see in her.
I think just like Henrietta Stackpole Isabel wants to see Europe or at least more of it before getting married. Isabel wants to maintain her independence (and perhaps her citizenship). And there’s Caspar Goodwood waiting in the wings. Another factor that may count against Lord Warburton is the shortness of their acquaintance. He’s only been in her company three or four times, which might make one question his feelings as a basis for a long term commitment. Whether that’s fair, time (and more chapters) will tell.
Chris wrote: "Susan wrote: The opening chapters present three “specimens” of American women: Mrs Touchett, Isabel Archer, and Henrietta Stackpole. Are there any characteristics they have in common? They each a..."
Nice discussion of independence as a unifying thread between the three American women. Another thread might be extreme directness in speech and approach to topics that interest them. Henrietta is the greatest example of this, but Isabel also demonstrates a directness in speech that borders on the aggressive, as in her discussion of the sincerity of Lord Warburton’s political beliefs with his sisters (a scene which is also hilarious). Does their greater directness denote greater honesty or transparency?
I agree Lord Warburton seems to have it all. I kept thinking he was too good to be true, but Ralph and his father vouch for him so apparently not.
Susan wrote: "Thomas wrote: "It's not clear that Isabel has intentions, or that she wants them. There is an interesting passage toward the beginning of Chapter 12 where the narrator tells us a little about her f..."Isabel seems to have had more connections than Henrietta - I admired the fact that Henrietta was intent on making her own way.
Cphe wrote: "Susan wrote: "Thomas wrote: "It's not clear that Isabel has intentions, or that she wants them. There is an interesting passage toward the beginning of Chapter 12 where the narrator tells us a litt..."I’m enjoying Henrietta. As you point out, there’s much that is admirable in her character, and I think it reflects well on Isabel that she values her as a friend.
I love that Henrietta disapproves of the nobility but she's fascinated by them. How American!
Susan wrote: "Chris wrote: "Susan wrote: The opening chapters present three “specimens” of American women: Mrs Touchett, Isabel Archer, and Henrietta Stackpole. Are there any characteristics they have in common?..."Exactly! They are all very direct, bordering on rude in some occasions. Or at least, if not rude, they express their thougths without considering how the other person might hear / understand them. Henrietta Stackpole is shown speaking to lord Warburton and attacking the peerage... I might wait until the second meeting to express this opinion to a lord, if I were in her place. Or the unbelievable conversation between Isabel and one of the Molyneux sisters, when she asks if the brother might renounce his title (or something to that effect)...
And something else that struck me : all three of them never consider they might be wrong. They all have very decisive thoughts (like Mrs Touchette, in her dislike of Henrietta, or Henrietta in her disdain of pretty much anything English, or Isabell in her refusal of Lord Walburton). The one character, up to now, who seem less rigid in his opinions is Ralph. Maybe because he speaks with humour, as a defense mechanism against his illness?
I missed this the first time through, but my attention was directed to an interesting passage towards the end of Ch. 8. Mr. Touchett is discussing "Lord Warburton and his friends--the radicals of the upper class" with Isabel. Touchett says, "Their radical views are a kind of amusement; they've got to have some amusement, and these progressive ideas are about their biggest luxury. They make them feel moral and yet don't damage their position." Isabel finds this "in harmony with her general impressions of human nature." This struck me because I've heard the term "luxury beliefs" used nowadays for progressive ideas more widely held among the well-educated and urbane than among the working class. It loooks like James saw the same phenomenon a century and a half ago.
”La_mariane wrote: “And something else that struck me : all three of them never consider they might be wrong. They all have very decisive thoughts (like Mrs Touchette, in her dislike of Henrietta, or Henrietta in her disdain of pretty much anything English, or Isabell in her refusal of Lord Walburton). The one character, up to now, who seem less rigid in his opinions is Ralph. Maybe because he speaks with humour, as a defense mechanism against his illness?"That’s certainly possible. Isabel will comment later on how Ralph’s circumstances affect his judgment, at least in her opinion. He’s also has wider experience and is older than Isabel, who is in her early twenties and perhaps older than Henrietta. I’m not sure we’re told how old Henrietta is, but Ralph is in his thirties.
Susanna wrote: "Roger wrote: "This struck me because I've heard the term "luxury beliefs" used nowadays for progressive ideas more widely held among the well-educated and urbane than among the working class. ."Y..."
In my mother tongue, we call it "caviar" beliefs. I wonder : is Lord Warburton really representative of a significant part of the peerage, at the time? Or would "reformists" lords be the exception?
La_mariane wrote: "I wonder : is Lord Warburton really representative of a significant part of the peerage, at the time? Or would "reformists" lords be the exception? ..."Is Lord Warburton first born son of his family? (Many writers touch on the different roles aristocratic brothers assume -- I am just reading The Cadfael Chronicles where the point is made that, even deep into history, aristocratic men who chose convent life might be expected by their families to be ambitious. Edith Wharton, of course, chronicles the acquisition of New World resources via the bridal bed.) But so far I have perceived Lord Warburton as having mainly romantic intentions towards Isabel.
Lily wrote: “Is Lord Warburton first born son of his family?..."Yes, he is the oldest son. In stereotypical fashion, his younger brothers have gone into the military and the church.
When I think of Lord Warburton, I find myself thinking of Downton Abbey and Lord Grantham, although that show is set about forty years later. (The Portrait of a Lady is set around 1872, and Downton Abbey begins with the sinking of the Titanic in 1912). Lord Grantham is also far more conservative in his political beliefs.
Ralph thinks about Isabel: “She was intelligent and generous; it was a fine free nature; but what was she going to do with herself? This question was irregular, for with most women one had no occasion to ask it. Most women did with themselves nothing at all; they waited, in attitudes more or less gracefully passive, for a man to come that way and furnish them with a destiny. Isabel’s originality was that she gave one an impression of having intentions of her own.” Of course, Ralph’s thoughts reflect the social situation of 1881, but he poses an essential question: What are Isabel’s intentions, and what is she going to do with her life? Do you think Isabel knows the answer to Ralph’s questions? Why do you think she turned down Lord Warburton? And do you have any thoughts on Ralph’s fascination with his cousin?
The opening chapters present three “specimens” of American women: Mrs Touchett, Isabel Archer, and Henrietta Stackpole. Are there any characteristics they have in common? And how do they compare with Lord Warburton’s sisters, the Misses Molyneux?