Dickensians! discussion
Nicholas Nickleby - Group Read 6
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Nicholas Nickleby: Chapters 24 - 36
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If English people say they are “leaving the country” now, this usually means they are going abroad. Missing one letter out means they are moving from one specified area: a county such as Yorkshire or Devon, to another county within England. So when Nicholas says “before I left the country, where I have been for some time past, I undertook to deliver a message to you” this could be misunderstood by modern readers as him having been abroad.
Technically he could be said to have left the country if he went on holiday to the Isle of Wight with the Lillivigs, but he didn’t (and even that would be pushing it). It becomes clearer when Nicholas goes on: “And I have been … already in town for some days, without having had an opportunity of doing so” and Mr. Kenwigs repeats “Message from the country!” The distinction is clear: “town” here means London, and “country” means anywhere that is not London! Victorians who lived all their lives in London, such as the Kenwigs, might have such a parochial attitude. To add to the confusion, London is a city not a town - and so is Portsmouth - where Nicholas, Miss Petowker and Mr Lillivick met.
Modern day usage would be countryside. We can sometimes find instances of “country” being used for “county” in Victorian novels, such as “the country of Cornwall” but this would be inaccurate usage now, as Cornwall is a county within the country of England.
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when Mr Kenwigs cries “take ‘em away to the Fondling!”, this “awful remark” as the narrator calls it, is a Malapropism. He means, of course, the “Foundling Hospital” for orphans. He must be very upset … 😆
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I really liked the fact that as soon as he has any money, Nicholas buys toys to share among the Kenwigs children. It’s yet another example of how quickly fortunes change for many Londoners at this time. The Dickens scholar Michael Slater has said “theatrically is the living heart of Nicholas Nickleby” and we see plenty of that here, including histrionics from Mr Kenwigs this time, rather than his rather tiresome wife. I think my favourite part was Morleena copying the hysteria she has observed in her mother so well: of Mrs Kenwigs fainting. Hablot Knight Browne captures this perfectly, and I love the details in the background too. 😁
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I love these last two chapters! The Cheerybile brothers! What an antidote to the Ralph Nickleby crowd. Just their names... like a combination of cheery and charitable - which describes them perfectly. I love all of the illustrations you posted for Chapter 35, Jean, but most particularly those of the twin brothers with Tim Linkinwater. After a 40-year association, even Tim begins to resemble the brothers. Such a sweet chapter.And poor Mr. Kenwigs! All of his years' long hopes regarding an inheritance for his children dashed. And Mr. Lilliwick didn't even have the courage to tell him so himself... he enlisted Nicholas to break the news to the Kenwigs.
That scene with Morleena "fainting" in a chair as her mother would have done until she realized nobody was paying attention to her! What a priceless scene! With all of the responsibilities and deadlines constantly facing Dickens, I just don't know how he could compartmentalize all that and come up with such humorous scenes!
Jean: Thank you so much for the article linking to childbearing during Victorian times. I particularly enjoyed reading Queen Victoria's thoughts on having borne so many children. And this article revived memories of reading the battle between midwives and doctors in Tristan Shandy. I loved that.
I have to admit I was glad to see this was going to be a shorter chapter, too, Jean, though I did like it. I agree that it’s amazing how he keeps all the various plot threads up to date in ways that make sense. Of course Nicholas hasn’t had any free time since arriving in London to visit the Kenwigs. And now he delivers the news that disrupts their family plan. I can’t recall but do we know if Mr Kenwigs is employed in any way? It seems as if he lives only on the promise of the money to come for the children. How do they support themselves now? Or Did he marry into his wife’s money?
*raises arm high and waves* I'm here, I'm here! Keeping up with the chapters, thankfully, but not the comments. I absolutely love going through and catching up with what everyone has had to say. I agree with Shirley. These past two chapters have been delightful! I've liked taking a break from Mulberry, Ralph, and those [said in a disgusted tone] characters. The Cheeryble brothers remind me of the two charity workers who petition Scrooge for money, how they are devoted to giving and helping others and do it in pairs! This novel has been all about the ups and downs of fortune and misfortune. I can only hope the Nickleby's fortune remains but don't have high hopes since we still have a ways to go.
I'm finding the discussion about childbirth and babies interesting. I liked this sentence: "It is a pleasant thing to reflect upon, and furnishes a complete answer to those who contend for the gradual degeneration of the human species, that every baby born into the world is a finer one than the last." All of the ladies flitting in and out of the room would have driven me batty after giving birth. About how old is this new baby? Did Mrs Kenwigs *just* give birth? I assumed so, but she was quite up and at 'em so I thought maybe the baby was a week old or so.
I'm always drawn to doting nurse characters for their spunk (like the nurse in Romeo and Juliet). Mrs Kenwigs nurse is no different when responding to Mr Kenwigs when he tells her to be silent: "'I won't be silent,' returned the nurse. 'Be silent yourself, you wretch.'" 😆
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Mr Kenwigs does have a job, Sue but it's not an office job. He is an ivory turner. The family occupy the first floor of the tenement building Noggs lives in, and have extra responsibilities over the rest of the tenants, which might mean they have a reduced rent for the size of their two rooms, (which are more spacious than the others') but we aren't specifically told that.
They can't be very well off, and his wife only has aspirations to gentility because of her uncle.
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Did Mrs Kenwigs *just* give birth?..."
YAY Kelly - good to hear from you!
And yes, pretty much. We can tell from this sentence about the "ladies":
"Some few acquired great credit from having prophesied, the day before yesterday, exactly when it would come to pass; others, again, related, how that they guessed what it was, directly they saw Mr. Kenwigs turn pale and run up the street as hard as ever he could go."
So as soon as Mr Kenwigs knew the child had been born, he sped off to buy the kid gloves for the knocker 😆 Then the ladies all run into the room when they hear the child is suckling.
I like both the quotations you select - especially that first ironic one! And I love his grumpy nurses and servants too - in a strange way they remind me of Newman Noggs!
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I know - and there are lots more LOL scenes coming up 😆
I anticipated a meltdown over the marriage, but I didn't anticipate Mr. Kenwigs wanting to kill off the children.😄 I think Dickens is masterful at giving us some humor to lighten the more tragic elements of his novels. Even with the father protesting they may as well die, there is so much contrast between these children and the adoration lavished on them by the parents and the poor fat little Squeers brat. Not to mention the poor boys who live at Dotheboys.
Sara wrote: "I anticipated a meltdown over the marriage, but I didn't anticipate Mr. Kenwigs wanting to kill off the children.😄 I think Dickens is masterful at giving us some humor to lighten the more tragic el..."Sara, That's a great contrast - the treatment of the Kenwigs' children with the Squeers boy (and the rest of the boys at Dotheboys). Mr Kenwigs' comments, to me, seemed like pure drama. It's obvious that his children are his world, from the smallest gestures like stroking his daughter's "tail" (even though it had unfortunate consequences when he heard about the loss of the inheritance!) Whereas the younger Squeers on first glance seems to be well taken care of because of his healthy and rosy appearance, but he is just being used to promote his dad's school as a prop and a lie at that.
Oh yes, Kenwigs' conniption fit is all drama--he wouldn't hurt a hair on his child's head, while Squeers compliments and feeds his boy only so he can dupe people into sending their unfortunate offspring to the school.
Thanks Jean for the reminder about Mr Kenwigs. I’d forgotten those details.
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This comment actually goes back to Chapter 35, but it took me a bit of time to research it. When I read the chapter, I was curious about Nicholas' supposition that the Cheeryble brothers were "German-merchants" {hyphen in the original text}.A Google search revealed different views about this. The website The Victorian Web takes it as a statement about the brother's ethnicity: they are said there to be [German] "...immigrants (or immediate descendants of immigrants) who began to set up merchant houses in Manchester around 1820." (I'd provide a link, but the article unfortunately has a couple of BIG spoilers about the brothers' future role in the novel!) There are problems with that theory, though.
Most obviously, Cheeryble is not a German name, nor are Edwin or Charles German names. Nicholas Nickleby is set in London, not Manchester, and according to statements made in the book, the brothers were in business long before the 1820s. The Victorian Web also suggests that Charles and Ned are modeled on the Manchester merchants Daniel and William Grant; but judging again by their names, the latter two were Brit's, not Germans. And finally, if "German' is simply an ethnic adjective modifying "merchants," the obvious way to write it is without a hyphen. To use a hyphen suggests that the hyphenated form is some sort of distinct phrase with a meaning in itself.
A couple of other Internet sites suggested that the term simply refers to importers of foreign goods; but I didn't find anything online that I considered authoritative. So, I resorted to A Dickens Glossary for American Readers by Fred Levit (Garland, 1990). On p. 175 there, Levit defines "German-merchants" as "importers of goods from Germany." Given the research he mentions in his Acknowledgments, and the reasons above, I'm inclined to find that definition convincing.
Thank you for researching, Werner. Indeed I was doubting about their ethnicity for the reasons you mentioned. "Importers of good from Germany" seems to be more likely.
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I know, which is why I gave the brief factual details you have repeated here, in my original post LINK HERE
plus a link to a Ramsbottom website without any spoilers. I think you must have missed this, and am really sorry you have read spoilers, Werner 😟- I honestly thought I had provided enough info which is generally agreed among Charles Dickens scholars, plus a little regional information.
German-merchants correctly has a hyphen. It means importers and exporters in the German trade. The Cheeryble brothers would have exported finished textiles, cotton twist and yarn to Germany.
Yes, we are in London in Nicholas Nickleby at the moment, (but have not always been) but we know that the brothers started out elsewhere, which makes sense as there are the cotton mills in Lancashire (Manchester etc,) which feature heavily in Victorian fiction, but also a huge and ever-growing textile industry in the East End, where they have moved to and where various immigrants in the trade have settled and contine to do so. (Some feature in other Victorian novels.)
There is more about German-merchants in The Novelist and Mammon: Literary Response to the World of Commerce in the Nineteenth Century by Norman Russell, which also explains that the Cheeryble brothers would import wool from Saxony. These products are probably what Nicholas glimpsed in the warehouse, but couldn't make sense of.
As for their names ... well I think we all know that Charles Dickens invents names! So it does not bother me that "Cheeryble" is not a German name - it isn't an English one either! It is a mixture of "cheery" and "blithe" (and someone suggested something else) - as was Charles Dickens's habit to choose apt names - sometimes onomatopoeic, or sometimes just funny!
The Cheeryble's first names are English, yes, but then that could be because they are descendants, or because at some time the family decided to Anglicise their first names. In Victorian trade, it would be very important at management level to have an acceptable name, and not one which was difficult for English people to remember, or one with bad (sometimes random or accidental) English connections.
People sometimes "cheat" with their names in England, which is surprising as unlike other countries it is very easy and cheap for us to change our name by deed poll. For example even the writer and Reverend Patrick Brunty (1777 – 1861) decided to subtly "improve" his Irish name, which is why we have the Brontë family. More accurately we should read works by Charlotte Brunty, (ditto Emily, Anne and Branwell). So you see English pretentiousness even extended into the clergy at this time. 🙄 (Nicholas Nickleby is contemporary with Patrick Brunty's works, although his offspring are slightly later.)
Thank for the link to A Dickens Glossary for American Readers by Fred Levit (which I'd never heard of, or imagined existed!) - I must make a note of that to help me clarify the cultural differences. I'm never quite sure if I'm "over explaining" or missing out vital data. 😊
Bionic Jean wrote: "Thank for the link to A Dickens Glossary for American Readers by Fred Levit (which I'd never heard of, or imagined existed!)"Always glad to introduce other readers to a helpful resource, being a librarian! It was already in the reference collection of the BU library when I started working here, so it was sort of handed to me on a silver platter without any searching. :-)
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I urge everyone to be careful with "research" on a first read, as several times before, others have discovered far more than they wanted to know in perhaps the second sentence of a general post online on a Charles Dickens name or character, as Werner has found to his cost. Sometimes it is a main character, and I did indicate that we could tell that the Cheeryble brothers would be important, because of the amount of time Charles Dickens spent on introducing Charles Cheeryble to Nicholas outside the employment office.
If I (or another host) have not linked to a site which is safe, or explained something properly, then just ask! The algorithm on my computer will go straightaway to more sites that are likely to be useful, by virtue of my use of my computer being geared to English sites. Then I can pass this on safely.
Thanks.
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I wrote my previous answer to you well after midnight, and now I see that it has not entirely addressed your concerns, so I’ll try to do that now for each of your problems in your third paragraph.
1. “To use a hyphen suggests that the hyphenated form is some sort of distinct phrase with a meaning in itself.”
Yes, “German-Merchants” refers to the trade I described i.e. to the merchandise and not necessarily the person! But see later …
2. “Nicholas Nickleby is set in London, not Manchester”
Most of it is overall, yes, but so far we have had several chapters in Gretna Bridge, Yorkshire (266 miles away) and several at the other end of the country - south of London rather than north - in Portsmouth, Hampshire, (74 miles away). We have been through many places for those journeys by Nicholas. Yorkshire and Lancashire abut, and Nicholas stayed overnight/travelled through various places. He met many folk on the journeys, including the Yorkshireman John Browdie.
“The Victorian Web also suggests that Charles and Ned are modeled on the Manchester merchants David and William Grant; but judging again by their names, the latter two were Brit’s, not Germans.”
Oh dear - that Victorian Web! It is good in parts, as it copies from a variety of sources, and actually in this case it is correct! I’m not sure if you are questioning this, but there is plenty of evidence about the originals being Daniel and William Grant.
3. I have already written a post about Charles Dickens’s visit to the Midlands in Oct - Nov 1838 (perhaps you missed this too?) and how he met Daniel and William Grant briefly in Manchester (which is actually Lancashire). The source for this is his own letters, collected in the The Letters of Charles Dickens: The Pilgrim Edition, Volume 1: 1820-1839.
4. I’ve also said that the preface is safe to read, and in it you will see that Charles Dickens himself also credits the originals of John Browdie and the Cheeryble brothers. He does not name the Cheeryble brothers, but
5. John Forster does. In his Life of Charles Dickens (our 3 part side read) he refers to their mutual friend the novelist Harrison Ainsworth and his “friends … in his native Manchester, from among whom Dickens brought away his Brothers Cheeryble”.
The point about names, I covered yesterday. This is fiction, after all, and Charles Dickens liked to invent names! But for more facts:
6. Immigrants to England often chose English (or more English-sounding) names, and even now Chinese folk will call themselves “David” or “Paul” etc. followed by their family name, knowing that English people might find their given name difficult. Your name, Werner, I pronounce to myself the German way, with a “v” sound, but I expect it’s actually a “w”, as you are American.
7. And that brings us to whether the Cheerybles are English or German. We don’t have their passposts, so must surmise from other clues.
Nicholas seems to think they are German:
"from a hasty glance at the directions of some packages which were lying about, Nicholas supposed that the brothers Cheeryble were German merchants"
but this is inconclusive. It could even have been mistyped in the original serial.
They are quite old, so they could be either be first generation immigrants or second. It is a moot point as whether that actually makes them “English”, or whether it would be the next resident generation who would be thought so.
There were a lot of German people in London at this time, and there is even a “German hospital” in Ritson Road E.8 (now English and contained within the NHS in Hackney) opened in 1845 (i.e. 6 years later) for poor natives of Germany and German-speaking countries “for it must be a comfort for people speaking their own language”. (source the huge The London Encyclopaedia by Ben Weinreb and Christopher Hibbert.)
We should remember that Prince Albert, who was to marry Queen Victoria the next year in 1840 was German (Saxe-Coburg and Gotha). Trade became stronger and stronger and Charles Dickens was to send 2 of his sons (Charles and Francis) to Berlin and Hamburg to learn German for business purposes.
6. Chapter 35 tells us that although they are at the moment in London, the Cheeryble brothers have not always been there:
“you’ll be very much affected, brother Ned, remembering the time when we were two friendless lads, and earned our first shilling in this great city.”
At this point we can surmise that they have come from another centre of trade in textiles either in Germany, or from another place in Great Britain, and obviously Manchester leaps to mind since we know who they are based on! But we are to learn just a little more (not a lot) about this in ch. 43 i.e. in installment 14, or in 3 months time for his original readers. Charles Dickens liked to keep his mysteries …
7. We cannot really tell from their accent. Although Charles Dickens loved to attempt regional accents on paper, his rendering of European ones seems to be limited to French, Italian, Spanish or East European, perhaps because Germans (like Scandinavians) often speak precise, idiomatic English with little accent. But this point about the Cheerybles’ accent is conjecture. We must wait and see.
I hope this has cleared some things up for you, Werner. Here's a safe site, but not much about the textile industry https://www.thehistoryoflondon.co.uk/...
Thanks, Jean. I actually did read the posts you mentioned, and all of your very informative comments (which I always look forward to, and which greatly enrich this read!) You're correct, of course, that Nicholas Nickleby is NOT entirely set in London, and that the setting of the novel as a whole is irrelevant to this point anyway. What I wrote in that part of my comment above was very clumsily phrased. The idea I actually intended to convey (and should have stated!) is that the Cheeryble brothers operate their business in London, rather than in Manchester.Jean wrote: "I’m not sure if you are questioning this, but there is plenty of evidence about the originals being Daniel and William Grant."
No, just to clarify, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever on that point! I said that the Victorian Web "suggests" this, rather than outright stating it as a fact, because they introduce that sentence with the words, "According to The Dickens Index (1990)..." But that wording might not have been intended to imply any uncertainty on their part, either; and I'm sorry that my wording created any impression of uncertainty on mine!
Tim emphasizes in Chapter 35 that he's been part of the business in this London location for 44 years, so hired on there well back in the late 18th century. The Cheeyble brothers came to London from elsewhere (just where, as you noted, isn't stated, at least not yet) as "two friendless lads," which to me suggests more the idea that they were very young men just starting out in the world, rather than two seasoned entrepreneurs who've been operating a textile business anywhere else.
I've long been aware that there was a significant ethnic German
presence in England in the early 1900s, and surmised that this development wasn't sudden, but would have begun in the 19th century or earlier; but you've provided a rich background of specific facts and details for that picture. There's no doubt that it would be perfectly realistic to picture two German-English siblings engaging in import/export trade with Germany at this time. The only question is whether or not the Cheerybles are German-English; and as you said, "We don't have their passports...." (I agree that the absence of a German accent in their speech tells us nothing definitive, one way or the other.)
Jean wrote: "I hope this has cleared some things up for you, Werner."
Yes, and hopefully my post has clarified some of the confusion left by my previous comment. I think we're on the same page as to the facts; and I'm champing on the bit to move on to the next chapters! (And yes, my generation pronounces the W in my name as a w, though I suspect that my grandparent's generation, at least on my dad's side, would have pronounced it in Swedish fashion, with a v sound.)
You're right that the focus of the Levit book would make it less likely to be published in the UK! :-(
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Yes, thank you. Good point too about Tim Linkinwater's length of tenure there.
Trying to nail Nicholas's supposition about whether the brothers are ethnically German is proving fruitless. I've looked at edits made to the 1848 and 1867 editions, but the only one in ch 35 seems to be a change from "cheque for" to "cheque from" Mr Linkinwater, and there is a specific note that minor changes, such as spelling or punctuation are not in the list. This seems very remiss, since punctuation can completely change the meaning of a sentence! But it does mean that now I have found it both without and with a hyphen, indicates nothing as to Nicholas's understanding 🙄
I've actually now found 2 copies for sale of your Dickens glossary for Americans, but the first, though available here, is out of my price range (for supplementary material, as it would only ever be of use to me to indicate to other readers) and although the second looked hopeful, once I had added on the £20 postage from the States it wasn't! So it's yet another on my "keep an eye out for" list.
Before I know it the week has passed and I am trying to catch up!! Too much on my plate. I certainly enjoyed these humorous chapters ( excepting the confrontation between Hawk and Nicholas) and love all the comments. I was surprised to see the smarmy Squeers show up again. My stomach roils just at the thought of him.It is a little distressing to see that Nicholas just can't seem to control his anger! It only gets one in trouble and then come the brothers Cheeryble. How refreshing and cheery!! The illustration in my book made me think of Tweedledee and Tweedledum. LOL.
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Oh yes! I wonder if the Cheeryble brothers were in Lewis Carroll's mind in 1871, when he invented Tweedledum and Tweedledee and wrote Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There.
Hope there'll be a little time for you to catch up tomorrow, Chris 😊 Here's another link to the next thread LINK HERE
Bionic Jean wrote: "And thoughts on ...the Infant Phenomenon again." AND THEN:"It seemed to persist a bit in the 20th century, with some child actors in playing younger and younger parts as they got older and (the girls) being “strapped into” their costumes."
Popping in after several weeks absence, this reminds me of the American The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. In the novel Dorothy is just a little girl age 11. In the movie we have well -developed Judy Garland, age 16, strapped into a childlike costume with braids.
Not as extreme as the Victorian examples, but interesting!
Jean & friends: A Question for Handling & Remembering all the Characters in Nicholas Nickleby.I am needing help on this, given my break in reading. I checked out one resource online and it had terrible spoilers. I just need a quick few words to remind me, for example, who Mrs. Wititterly is (i.e., insufferable & temporary employer of Kate).
A site to avoid: Litcharts.com !!
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For instance in one of my reference books the third word of one character description has a huge spoiler. We have found this with every novel we have read. 🥹 It's very different reading a serial novel in the way the original readers did, than a "normal" real life group where you read it all first.
Can't you just ask? If I'm not around, I'm sure somebody else will be. We all know what it's like with Dickens and his huge cast of characters. None of us would mind (and some might also appreciate the reminder, with so many characters.) Or put the name you are wanting in the search box (on the right) and the summary mentioning it should come up.
(Litcharts is bad for Dickens in a number of ways, anyway. You might remember that I intended to take the summaries from there, but gave up on the second or third day as they are so poor. There are many mistakes in comprehension, mistakes in characters' names, where they attribute something to the wrong person, mistakes in basic grammar (e.g. it actually said "Smike had went upstairs") and so on.)
Hi Lee! It is indeed a task to remember all the protagonists especially if you interrupted your reading. Moreover Dickens has so many characters in his novels. Some of them are even unnamed at first. When reading Buddenbrooks where virtually the whole merchant city of Lübeck is mentioned, I wrote down all the names in a physical notebook under each chapter with a succinct note and highlighted the name with a Stabilo®️ as soon as they appeared and found it helpful. I did not need to look up and unvolontarily see spoilers. I advised an Italian fellow reader who was confused by all these German names to do so and she found that helpful.
Which chapter are you presently reading?
I know what you mean Lee. I just had to do a catch up myself after another interruption. I did not have as much of a problem with names as I did with the rapid cycling through story lines, styles, and subplots. I tend to minimize critical observations that Dickens was too episodic in the early book, but seems more the case with the writing in this book since his finish with Oliver Twist. I won't add more since I need to reread the last two chapters and notes. I am hoping with the last chapter we have more unity. I will also ask if anyone knows if Dickens was trying to adapt to any equivalent of what we today call market research, or if he was responding to the input of friends and/or publishers? Or anything significant happening in his life at this time? There is a looseness to the plotting and structuring that wasn't as apparent before.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Oh Lee ... this is what I dread! 😟 Poor you. I'm so sorry but nowhere is safe for a first read. .."Oh gee, I had forgotten about the Search box, which honestly I have never used.
I am re-reading all your posts and everyones comments beginning with Installment 10, and I do have a mess of notes. I will warn Jeannine to stop using lists she finds on the Internet. Thanks, Jean.
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Claudia - those are excellent tips, and will be helpful once we have an idea whether a character is likely to come back into the text. You are so right in your earlier observation that he sometimes chooses a minor characters to bring back into the text.
With Dickens though - and particularly this one - many do not! For instance, we might remember lesser characters such as Mortimer Knag, or Chris's favourite, Mrs Grudden, Mrs Blockson, Mr Snittle Timberry, Mr Tix and Mr Scaley (bailiffs), the Curdles, Alphonse (the page) - and even if we do really well and remember all those, how about the Miss Dowdleses, Miss Browndock, Miss Biffin, the Peltiroguses, Mr Watkins, Miss Cropley, Lukin, Mogley, Tipslark, Cabbery, Smifser and the Hawkinses of Taunton Vale. And yes, these have all been mentioned! 😆
Lest we hold out hands up in despair, Dickens does usually does tell us where we met them before, (as he did with Mr Snawley) or makes sure he gives them a characteristic, perhaps a way of speech, which reminds us.
Sam wrote: "I know what you mean Lee. I did not have as much of a problem with names as I did with the rapid cycling through story lines, styles, ..."Hello, Sam I am making a list as Claudia suggested - but I had gotten as far as ch 40 and now am backing up reading comments beginning 10 chapters earlier. Sub-plots! Yes. And I am an experienced
reader!Combining my age with # of days interrupted = re-reading last 10 chapters carefully!
Claudia wrote: "Hi Lee! It is indeed a task to remember all the protagonists especially if you interrupted your reading. Moreover Dickens has so many characters in his novels. Some of them are even unnamed at firs..."Separating my notes into chapters with characters underlined is an excellent idea. It would help orienting the character with the correct chapter. When reading Buddenbrooks where virtually the whole merchant city of Lübeck is mentioned . . . sounds a bit terrifying!
Peter wrote: "If Dickens presents us with so many possible ‘love connections’ in the first part of the novel could it be the second part of the novel will provide partners for most/all the characters in the matrix?."Love your use of the word "matrix"! Totally perfect for a Dickens's novel!
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Do you mean in Oliver Twist by this, Sam? Because you may remember that he had to switch from making it simple sketches about a workhouse boy, and develop it into a long serial.
With Nicholas Nickleby, he was actually contracted to create something more similar to The Pickwick Papers, which is why it has a much more episodic feel. His stated aim was to amuse, but he couldn't resist putting in his campaigning social criticism as well. It might be worth you looking back to the beginning Sam and linking to the "Nickleby Proclamation".
"if he was responding to the input of friends and/or publishers" - yes, the publishers as stated, and he was also responsive to the public, expanding popular characters and killing off less popular ones.
"Or anything significant happening in his life at this time?" yes again. Within the last few months he had visited the Yorkshire schools. He had met up with the originals of Squeers and John Browdie. He made a separate visit to the Midlands and met with the originals of the Cheeryble brothers. He went to the Isle of Wight. Miss La Creevy was based on a miniature painter he had commissioned to paint Catherine's portrait, when they became engaged. The acting scenes are based on his recent experience in the theatre ... plus he visited Portsmouth and saw the original of the infant phenomenon so yes, it's all there! (More details on these in earlier posts.) He was responding to events in his life all the time, and some of Nicholas Nickleby was written while he was in these places, with the rest coming shortly after.
Paul wrote: "Sara wrote: "Thinking of Peter's comment: With all the possibilities, I have yet to light upon a suitable or wanted pairing for either Nicholas or Kate."(Paul) "As far as as a possible match for Nicholas goes, I have no idea at all! Miss La Creevy??
According to Chapter III, "Miss La Creevy was a mincing young lady of fifty . . . " So not at all a match for Nicholas!
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Lee wrote: "Claudia wrote: "Hi Lee! It is indeed a task to remember all the protagonists especially if you interrupted your reading. Moreover Dickens has so many characters in his novels. Some of them are even..."Rest assured, Lee, the merchant city of Lübeck in the 19th century is much smaller than a Texan small town.
There is a bunch of significant families, senators, a Bürgermeister, an estate broker and a pastor. You just have to notice who is married with whom, what is their trade, a few genealogical details. Therefore I used a colour code: yellow for the names, pink for the dates, blue for the places mentioned (a street, a city, a village, etc). So that when you are in chapter 40 and a name is mentioned, you easily browse back and retrieve where exactly you came across that name.
It is no more difficult than Dickens' abundant cast!
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Bionic Jean wrote: "I do love reading through all the comments to see people''s observations each day,.." AND "Actually I'd mistakenly anticipated others would enjoy the anecdote about one of Charles Dickens's youngest fans. Jean I adored this little anecdote you told us! It reminded me what a good father Charles Dickens tried to be, and how closely attuned he was to little people. Yes - I believe it also showed us that his novel was being read aloud to families gathered round in the evenings, even the children!
I wish we did that today instead of the ever-present TV!!!
Lee. This might be more trouble than you're willing to go through, but this is what I do when I'm trying to go back to find a keyword (such as a name or a word in a passage) in a book I'm reading: I download a Kindle version of the book to my tablet (I use an iPad), open the book, and use the search option (a magnifying glass) to type in what I'm searching for. The results will show up in order of appearance. What's great about this is it shows you what chapter and on what page your keyword is located on, as well as the sentence that contains it. So for instance, if I'm on page 300, I only look at the results before page 300 so I don't accidentally read spoilers.I borrow most of my ebooks through my library and choose the "Read on Kindle" option. For old books like Nicholas Nickleby, Amazon always offers a free Kindle version.
I hope this helps, if all else fails.
Werner wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "Thank for the link to A Dickens Glossary for American Readers by Fred Levit (which I'd never heard of, or imagined existed!)"Always glad to introduce other readers to a helpfu..."
Werner, I wanted to thank you for posting your knowledge of this reference book. I was able to find it through a used book website, and it just came in today. It is just as wonderful a reference as you said it is. What I love about it is that Fred Levit not only provided the vocabulary term but the Dickens work in which it is located. That is so very useful! And as a bonus, Levit signed the frontispiece. That's always fun when that happens. Again, thank you!
Claudia wrote: "Lee wrote: "Claudia wrote: "Hi Lee! It is indeed a task to remember all the protagonists especially if you interrupted your reading. Moreover Dickens has so many characters in his novels. Some of t..."Excellent tips, Claudia. I do this to some extent, but I wish I had been more diligent! Onward!
Sam wrote: "At last I m feeling a bit better, pretty much caught up, and feeling this psychological discussion is a place where I can slip back in unobtrusively. While Jean has been looking at multiphrenia ..."Sam, I appreciate all your comments and especially what you said about the former Robin Williams, certainly a genius himself, and under-appreciated. He could indeed be several people at once, in quick succession, just as Charles Dickens appears to have been able to do. I agree we should not worry so much with psychological labels , but appreciate brilliance and genius for what it is.
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Werner, I wanted to thank you for posting your knowledge of this reference book."Glad I was able to be helpful, Shirley!
Sara wrote: "The altercations do seem to be building in intensity as we go along, and I am concerned if Nicholas ever has a full confrontation with Ralph over what he has done to Kate. . . I did notice particularly the use of the clock--as Nicholas counted the bells of the hour, I felt it was a warning of what was to come."Ch 32, Message 179
Sara and Jean, thank you so much for reminding me about the clock. I re-read this scene much more slowly, keeping in mind the time passing with the ticking of the clock AND the little bell that rang at the quarters. And then Dickens continued to make the scene move even more slowly. "Thus they remained in perfect silence for upwards of an hour -- Nicholas would have though for three hours at least . . . Then the scene gathers in potency as both Sir Mulberry and Nicholas eye one another with contempt.
What drama! Sometimes I read Dickens much too quickly to get to the "action" of a scene, but by doing that I miss so much. Jean, you have taught us all to slow down and read the narrative very closely.
Peter wrote: "´London at last.´ indeed, Jean, we are back and ´Life and death … went hand in hand.´" Peter remarks in a memorable comment: "I’m always conflicted as to whether I’m to read Nicholas as being a noble youth or an impetuous one who matures through the novel."I really enjoyed reading your thoughts here, Peter, and they are so perfectly timed to highlight where Dickens has taken us in this novel by Ch 32. This is the chapter at which I begin to totally love Nicholas Nickleby!
And Jean, you have outdone yourself in leading us through this novel. You remember each of us readers and never fail to teach something new with every chapter. Thank you!
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Jane Eyre (other topics)Pride and Prejudice (other topics)
Pride and Prejudice (other topics)
Red Pottage (other topics)
Oliver Twist (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Edgar Allan Poe (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Fred Levit (other topics)
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Victorian Attitudes to Pregnancy
We are told that Mrs Kenwigs has “aspirations to gentility” (I think we might have worked that out already!) so Mr Kenwigs is keen to observe all the showy social niceties, such as muffling the door knocker - even if he did purchase the cheapest sort of kid gloves he could find.
There are many fairly rigid customs built around expecting a baby at this time, partly because child mortality was so high - and indeed death in childbirth or shortly after from puerperal fever was very common. Then there were many children who died as a result of venereal disease inherited from one or other parent, quaintly recorded on death certificates of the babies as “inanition”. These are some of the reasons why families had so many children.
It meant that pregnant women were treated like kid gloves (Ooh! - unconscious pun there!) You may remember that in Little Dorrit (view spoiler)[ Fanny Dorrit, once married to Edmund Sparkler, resented being cooped up while she was pregnant, and wanted to go out dancing and so on (hide spoiler)]. It’s a recurring theme in Victorian and earlier social novels, that the women feel confined while expecting, and the menfolk are allowed to socialise willy-nilly. The higher up in the social ladder women were, the more of their pregnancy they would expect to spend indoors. It was quite shocking for those of a higher social class to display themselves outside the house while pregnant.
Doctors and physicians recommended intensive bed rest for pregnancy, so women accustomed to constant entertainment had to remain in their home for the majority of the day. Refusing to give up their eventful lives, middle-class and upper-class women increasingly tended to hide their pregnancy in order to avoid any recommendation of bedrest.
In addition to this, mothers were expected to stay in bed for at least 10 days after the birth, just as we see (or rather do not see!) Mrs Kenwigs doing. At this time a midwife or a “nurse” assistant would take care of household chores and look after the other children. Childbirth was very much a female-directed event, and Charles Dickens stresses here just how many females are popping in and out of Mrs Kenwigs’s room, as well as the nurse who is present, arranging everything. Husbands might be expected to fetch the midwife, but were rarely in attendance at deliveries, although from the 1830s onwards, aristocratic husbands were increasingly likely to be at the bedside or at least in close proximity. Here we have both Mr Kenwigs and the doctor waiting in the next room, with no particular function; merely there it seems, because it is now “the correct thing to do”.
If you are interested in this subject, there is a lot of information in this article https://victorianweb.org/science/mate...
It has no spoilers for any novel.