SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
Recommendations and Lost Books
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Page-turning Fantasy
The range of fantasy is quite large; and these days a lot of it is imitative, perhaps most often of JR.R. Tolkien. I would suggest trying his core fiction, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings (published in three volumes but not a trilogy). The movies had their good points, but the originals are far deeper. If you like them, try The Silmarillion, which answers a whole lot of questions about Tolkien’s universe, but is not easy going.For fare somewhat less weighty in its developed “secondary world,” but very sophisticated, is Fritz Leiber’s series of tales of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, which have their own Wikipedia article to sort out the bibliography: they were written in no particular order between the late 1930s and the late 1980s, and the early stories were retroactively shuffled into chronological order in the 1970s.
Be sure you spell FAFHRD correctly, if you try to look it up. In-universe, the character is a brawny barbarian whose spelling erratic.He is sort of Leiber’s riposte to the archetypal Barbarian Hero of the 1930s Weird Tales magazine, Robert E. Howard’s Conan the Cimmerian, the main inspiration for tons of Sword and Sorcery (also Swordplay and Sorcery), a genre labelled by Leiber.
The bibliography for the Conan series is impossibly complex, as it includes other Howard stories rewritten in the 1960s to substitute Conan for some other character* — and a there are whole lot of pastiches. There are numerous Kindle editions of Howard’s originals, and you can check them without much of an investment.
*Howard wrote at a breakneck pace, selling to low-paying pulp magazines, and many of his protagonists differ from Conan mainly in name and having a vaguely historical setting instead of Howard’s Hyborian Age.
Ian wrote: "The range of fantasy is quite large; and these days a lot of it is imitative, perhaps most often of JR.R. Tolkien. I would suggest trying his core fiction, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings (pu..."Lord of the rings is a definite. Loved the movies so I feel reading them wont be a problem. I know the story (even though I know books to movies are always different)
I just looked up Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser and I think that is perfect because it's only 200 pages. If I start off with a 4-600 page fantasy novel, I might get overwhelmed with it. Is it a graphic Novel? Not against it but some reviews are saying it is and some are saying it's not.
Howard and the early Leiber were quite free of Tolkien’s influence. Also in that category is the work of E.R. Eddison, whose work is an order of magnitude more difficult. For one thing, Eddison seems to re-invent the English language as he goes along, drawing substantially on Elizabethan and Jacobean literature, along with other sources. His first, and most popular, is The Worm Ouroboros, readily available in cheap Kindle editions, not all of them textually reliable (especially because his rare words and period spellings break OCR technology).He is also the author of three remarkable novels, commonly known as the Zimiamvia Trilogy, although it was open-ended, with Eddison planning a fourth volume even as he was writing the third: which he didn’t live to complete. The internal chronology does not match publication dates.
There are graphic novel versions of some of the Leiber stories, which I have never seen. As the Wikipedia article details, there are multiple volumes to take into account. There are omnibus editions variously containing part of the complete set, including two “boxed sets” on Kindle which have the whole set in chronological order. I would suggest trying one or two before investing in the whole set.I haven’t even mentioned the rest of Leiber’s fantasy and science fiction: maybe another day.
Back to Eddison: the Zimiamvia novels were published in the order of: Mistress of Mistresses, A Fish Dinner in Memison, and the unfinished The Mezentian Gate.They can be read in that order, or any order, but by internal chronology Mezentian Gate is first, and incorporates some of Fish Dinner as off-stage but critical events. The latter part is a lead up to Mistress of Mistresses.
There is a good text of Mezentian Gate, including material not in the first edition, in a Kindle volume, The Complete Zimiamvia, which for good measure includes the tangentially related The Worm Ouroboros. There is also an annotated edition as Zimiamvia: A Trilogy, unfortunately out of print, and a bit on the expensive side from dealers.
The original Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories are not in graphic-novel form, but it certainly would not surprise me to see an adaptation in that medium.Leiber's original stories, however, are collected in seven volumes:
Swords and Deviltry
Swords Against Death
Swords in the Mist
Swords Against Wizardry
The Swords of Lankhmar
Swords and Ice Magic
The Knight and Knave of Swords
Note that most of these are collections of novellas rather than full-length novels; a lot of the earlier pieces were originally (separately) published in magazines. From what you say about length, you may actually find this easier to handle, reading one novella at a time.
Having spent all that time on Eddison, I want to point out again that he is a difficult writer, and definitely not to everyone’s taste: C.S. Lewis admired the books, but disdained Eddison’s moral and political philosophy, not without good reason.(Oh yes: although aimed at children, Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia is definitely worth checking.)
However, Lewis also pointed out that Eddison establishes his Secondary World, not through his lavish descriptions, but with the conversations of his characters, whether you love them or hate them.
The late Ursula K. Le Guin, whose Earthsea books are another must-read, greatly admired Eddison’s style, although she carefully avoided imitating it (good advice for almost everyone.
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Ian wrote: "There are graphic novel versions of some of the Leiber stories, which I have never seen. As the Wikipedia article details, there are multiple volumes to take into account. There are omnibus edition...So I'm old school. I'm not against the kindle but I like have the physical copy of books. I'm weird like that, lol. I guess you can call me a collector and love seeing my books on my bookshelf. I'm going to Barnes and Noble tomorrow so I will definitely see if they have any of his books in stock. It might have to be a special order, not sure. Hey, feel free to add more authors in here. Fantasy is one genre I haven't dived into much and I really want to.
And have you read Hyperion? And what are your thoughts on it if you had.
I'm heading out so it might take me a bit to respond.
Margaret wrote: "The original Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories are not in graphic-novel form, but it certainly would not surprise me to see an adaptation in that medium.Leiber's original stories, however, are c..."
Thank you for adding in the seven volumes. I was just looking up which to read in order. I'm actually excited about this. I know Fantasy can be a bit hard to read but it's a genre I really want to enjoy. I'm definitely starting off with Leiber's work.
The Wikipedia article on “Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser”I mentioned gives the books in their official chronological order, but also lists the stories in each volume, with their original publication dates.This is useful in understanding differences of tone and style between stories of different original dates. Leiber made some small editorial changes in line with the final chronology, but did not engage in wholesale rewriting of stories previously published, however much he worked over earlier drafts (some stories were originally episodes in an abandoned novel).
I tend to refer to Kindle editions when possible, because they are often cheaper, and, most important, for some of us, don’t take up physical space. I am in the process of moving, and a large part of that is dealing with my hard copy library.
Oh I hear ya the space, lol. I just got some more shelves and I'm so happy that I have more room for my books. I hate having them scattered throughout the house. One day I'll have a library. That is a dream of mine. To have a nice library in my house.
Marc wrote: "Oh I hear ya the space, lol. I just got some more shelves and I'm so happy that I have more room for my books. I hate having them scattered throughout the house. One day I'll have a library. That i..."I hope you get it, Marc!
Michelle wrote: "Marc wrote: "Oh I hear ya the space, lol. I just got some more shelves and I'm so happy that I have more room for my books. I hate having them scattered throughout the house. One day I'll have a li..."Thank you! The wife and I dream big, lol. She wants her own library, as do I. We are both avid readers so one library in the house will fill up quickly, lol. And I'm not talking master bedroom size. Just a big enough room to have different genre's spread out.
Thank you both for giving me recommendations on some Fantasy novels and pouring information out about them. I think they will be a good start to my fantasy collection. I still want to continue Child of a Mad God and The Two of Swords.
Marc wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Marc wrote: "Oh I hear ya the space, lol. I just got some more shelves and I'm so happy that I have more room for my books. I hate having them scattered throughout the house. One d..."we had that and still do to some extent: 3 bedroom house with two adults so each of us got one bedroom for our library. Whoever chose the largest one had to leave space for a bed in it for guests.
The Ikea Billy bookcases work quite well and are not over expensive
If you're open to a slightly different take on fantasy, I'd recommend Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London series.
Please also consider the stories of Elric of Melnibone written by Michael Moorcock. Elric is somewhat of an anti-hero. His goals are lofty, but he brings death and destruction to his friends and his kingdom. The stories have recently been collected in three bookshelf-worthy volumes:Elric of Melniboné
Stormbringer
The White Wolf
Leonie Rogers, I'm always open to anything new, so I will add Rivers of London series to the list. Thank you! Colin Alexander, I will add them to the list as well. Thank you.
As mentioned before. Fantasy is one genre I haven't ventured into. I can watch movies or TV shows all day but never put effort into reading any. (Besides the two that I have) And this is one genre I really want to dive into.
Leonie wrote: "If you're open to a slightly different take on fantasy, I'd recommend Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London series."This series is great on audio! Love the narrator, Kobna Holdbrook-Smith.
If you like fantasy squarely based on ancient or medieval literature, there is quite a lot out there, of varying quality, of course. One of the best is Evangeline Walton’s novelisations of four related stories in the Medieval Welsh anthology known as The Mabinogion. They were published in almost reverse order, and three volumes decades after the first, but the “correct” reading order is:The Prince of Annwn (1974)
The Children of Llyr (1971)
The Song of Rhiannon (1972)
The Island of the Mighty (as The Virgin and the Swine, 1936, retitled 1970).
There is a handy collection as “The Mabinogion Tetralogy.” It is out of print, but currently available in Kindle, and is even part of Kindle Unlimited, so if you are a subscriber you can read it for no extra charge.
If you want to go to Walton’s sources, the four stories are available as “The Four Branches of the Mabinogi.” (“Mabinogion” is a spelling error, and was misapplied to other works in the medieval manuscript collections of stories in Welsh.)There are a bunch of translations, and I could go into them at length: and have, on Amazon, a long time ago.
For Walton’s immediate sources (she also borrowed from other Celtic literature, and archaeology and art), the selection translated by Patrick K. Ford as “The Mabinogion and Other Medieval Welsh Tales,” is very good. It is available in paperback and Kindle, now reprinted as part of the University of California Press “World Literature in Translation” series. (I took courses on Medieval Welsh literature and Celtic Mythology from Ford at UCLA, before he moved on to Harvard, so I may be biased.)
Adding more to the list. Thank you Ian! I just left B&N. Picked up two books by T.J. Newman because her 3rd novel comes on Aug 13th. They also ordered me Swords and Deviltry. They had no Leiber novels in stock (which I was already predicting) Hope it comes in fast!
Another place to look is H.P. Lovecraft, although he is often regarded as an author of supernatural horror, which was his own self-categorization. However, a good part of his work can be considered science fiction, what with extra-terrestrials and extra-dimensional beings replacing demons and the like: the culmination of this part of his output is the short novel “At the Mountains of Madness, now available in a fully restored text in the Modern Library.On the clearly fantasy side is “The-Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath,” along with some related short stories influenced by Lord Dunsany (who deserves more than a passing mention, and will eventually get one).
There are many inexpensive Kindle editions, but Penguin published three hefty paperbacks containing the bulk of his work, in reasonably good texts.
Ian wrote: "Another place to look is H.P. Lovecraft, although he is often regarded as an author of supernatural horror, which was his own self-categorization. However, a good part of his work can be considered..."Yes! H. P. Lovecraft books are definitely on the list. I have read nothing but great reviews about his work. The Rats in the Walls I see mentioned a lot when people talk about his work.
Not everyone enjoys Lovecraft, for various reasons, not all of them valid. There are many complaints about his style, which generally ignore that he had several styles, some better than others, and that some were a conscious self-parody of his own mannerisms.He also had a lot of deplorable attitudes toward women, foreigners, especially immigrants, other races, and “the lower class” in general. These are most evident in his early letters, reflecting the attitudes of impoverished New England gentry in the early twentieth century.
By the time of his death he had changed direction, supporting Franklin Roosevelt, another upper-class type, in his struggle to protect the honest working class from the money-grubbing capitalists. But bits and pieces show up in the fiction, although usually voiced by characters, not the author.
There is a brilliant riposte to Lovecraft’s limitations is Kij Johnson’s “The Dream-Quest of Vellit Boe,” which is also one of the best sequels to Lovecraft I have ever read. And there is a lot of Lovecraft-inspired fiction, a trend he started by trading ideas with writer friends, so that their stories often shared a common, if vague, background.
I know you've read some R. A. Salvatore now here's a few lesser known series, but in my mind so good but different from one another. This first set of four is called Saga of the First King The Highwayman, The Ancient, The Dame, The Bear.The Crimson Shadow can be bought as a single volume or three separate novels. The Sword of Bedwyr,The Dragon King, Luthien's Gamble.
And the last can also be bought as a single volume Spearwielder's Tale or three separate novels The Woods Out Back, The Dragon's Dagger, Dragonslayer's Return.
Ian wrote: "There is a brilliant riposte to Lovecraft’s limitations is Kij Johnson’s “The Dream-Quest of Vellit Boe,” which is also one of the best sequels to Lovecraft I have ever read. And there is a lot of ..."Thank you for all the knowledge/background you have been giving me in getting my fantasy reading going. Can't wait for Leiber's book to come in! I told B&N to call me as soon as it comes in, lol.
Charlton wrote: "I know you've read some R. A. Salvatore now here's a few lesser known series, but in my mind so good but different from one another. This first set of four is called Saga of the ..."Oh I'm definitely adding these to the list. Child of a Mad God was great! I have to pick up the other ones. I believe there's two more in the series. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Good luck with B&N. I used to use a B&N store that almost never called, and sometimes gave the wrong answer when I called to check. Several wasted trips, including parking fees…..
I need to find a mom and pop bookstore. I know there are some in my area, just need to locate them. I would go there rather than B&N .
Marc wrote: "I need to find a mom and pop bookstore. I know there are some in my area, just need to locate them. I would go there rather than B&N ."I just went to your profile and saw that you live in Glenside, and there should be at least one near you. I've been to your town several times; I grew up in Warminster! Or Jenkintown probably has one.
I live in Los Angeles, and don’t drive any longer, so I don’t often get to visit actual bookstores. Travel costs cut into my book budget, for one thing, even more than parking used to.The ones I liked best are mostly gone.
Not my lack of patronage: although online competition didn’t help: the owner died, or the building was demolished, or the lease ran out and it became too expensive to stay.
There's one about five minutes from me that's been in business for forty years now.
Nadine in California wrote: "Leonie wrote: "If you're open to a slightly different take on fantasy, I'd recommend Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London series."This series is great on audio! Love ..."
You're totally right - I love these on audiobook!
I mentioned Lord Dunsany in passing. He was an Anglo-Irish peer turned dramatist, novelist, and master of the fantasy short story, as sidelines to other things that occupied his time. For a good part of his career he was probably best known for Jorgensen, a whiskey-cadging club-room raconteur of tall tales.But much of his early output of short stories and plays was fantasy. They can be found in the Delphi Classics edition of his (early, out of copyright) Works. You can check that, or his Wikipedia bibliography, for titles. He also wrote fantasy novels, only one of which is in the Delphi collection, Don Rodriguez, or Chronicles of Shadow Valley. Two others which are, or were, in Kindle editions, are The Charwoman’s Shadow and The King of Elfland’s Daughter.
Dunsany’s short fiction began appearing in a sort of Bible for a private mythology, The Gods of Pegana (with a circumflex over the n), and he added to it in the next volume, Time and the Gods. Subsequent collections are less thematic, but filled with gems. There is a Penguin Classics selection, still in paperback, as In the Land of Time: And Other Fantasy Tales. There are other Dunsany collections in Kindle, but the Delphi one seems the most organized.Thee is a fascinating book, Fantasies of Time and Death: Dunsany, Edison, Tolkien.” More later.
.Marc wrote: "Charlton wrote: "I know you've read some R. A. Salvatore now here's a few lesser known series, but in my mind so good but different from one another. This first set of four is ca..."You're exactly right The Coven includes three novels Child of a Mad God, which you've read, then Reckoning of Fallen Gods, and Song of the Risen God: A Tale of the Coven.
Charlton wrote: ".Marc wrote: "Charlton wrote: "I know you've read some R. A. Salvatore now here's a few lesser known series, but in my mind so good but different from one another. This first set..."I'm going to have to skim through Child of a Mad God when I get the others to refresh my mind of what's going on. It's been so long since I read it. I hate doing that with series. I try to stay on top of them so I don't forget what's happening. That's why sometimes when I know there's going to be a trilogy, I'll wait to get them until the author is done with it. That way I can just read them all at once, lol.
I've had nothing but great recommendations in here and I can't thank you all enough. I have a lot of authors and books written down. I have Leiber's (Swords of Deviltry) on order for my first go.
I honestly didn't think I would get anyone in here to start chatting about fantasy recommendations. So this is mind blowing to me. And if I take a while replying, I'm either busy or working but I will definitely make sure to get back to everyone.
I may be off for a while. I am moving, and I just was told, finally, that the cable connection in my new apartment doesn’t actually work, and I will have to have the ISP replace it. So my online status may be dicey for an unknown length of time starting a few days from now and possibly into the middle of next week.But I will be thinking about what to suggest. Sometime back, in the 1970s, I edited a fanzine devoted to fantasy, and memories of what I reviewed keep popping up. I have yet to deal with L.Sorague de Camp’s own fantasy, and his collaborations with Fletcher Pratt. Or Pratt’s own solo fantasy novels.
Marc wrote: "I honestly didn't think I would get anyone in here to start chatting about fantasy recommendations. So this is mind blowing to me. And if I take a while replying, I'm either busy or working but I w..."there are quite a few of us here who tend to skew more towards the fantasy side of things
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I love me some classic fantasy, but I sometimes do not find it "page turning"
I'd check out The Blacktongue Thief, Fate of the Fallen, Penric’s Demon or one of the Leigh Bardugo series--Shadow & Bone on Netflix is based on her books.
I second the idea of Rivers of London, that was fun! There's a lot of UF that mimics a sort of police crime novel/thriller style, so if you like that, there's a whole world there too! One of them is on our next poll even!
CBRetriever wrote: "Blacktongue Thief was good"It really was!
I just called B&N and asked if my book arrived yet. I'm making sure I keep in contact with them because I know how they can receive your ordered book call you days later. I just started (Falling) by T.J. Newman but I'm excited to read Leiber's Swords of Deviltry. I feel like that's going to be a good start for me.
Michelle wrote: "Marc wrote: "I need to find a mom and pop bookstore. I know there are some in my area, just need to locate them. I would go there rather than B&N ."I just went to your profile and saw that you li..."
So I have been looking up bookstores near me and nothing but local free Libraries are coming up. Do you remember the name?
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Will of the Many (other topics)The Blacktongue Thief (other topics)
The Blacktongue Thief (other topics)
Fate of the Fallen (other topics)
Penric’s Demon (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Fritz Leiber (other topics)Fred Saberhagen (other topics)
Leigh Bardugo (other topics)
R.A. Salvatore (other topics)
R.A. Salvatore (other topics)
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I know both series have multiple books so I know I'll most likely enjoy them I'm looking for any recommendations on other ones that'll keep me turning the page. So feel free to throw em at me!!