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Fairytale Creepshow - Can I pick your brain?
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Mod
Hi Dwayne and V.M - thanks for responding as well as inquiring after my creative malaise :DI'm still in the process of outlining which isn't so much as writing scenes and plot points (though I do every so often) but getting my mythos and terminology together for the world-building. Because the story takes place in an otherly place it's A LOT to establish and explain, so I'm making sure I UNDERSTAND what I'm saying before I try explaining it through dialogue and narration lol
That was some of my problems in the past - redundancies and contradictions. My hope is compiling a user's manual of madness and methodology will help me understand what's important and keep it straight so - when I outline the plot - it'll go smoother and be said simpler. Like I'm seeing what I have before I do anything with it.
I guess I'm a little overwhelmed by the task of detailing so much and just want to see what people find interesting or less so. You know, before I convince myself that should be a crowning plot point or major conversation piece. I'm just hoping if I share in a group with other writers they might indicate what hooks and draws are worth that extra attention.
Love the title!! Definitely stick with it! It's catchy.I concur with Dwayne and VM's comments. Start writing the parts you know, and the writing process itself stimulates the creativity that will get you past the parts you're still struggling with.
This is why I mentioned to you that I love Scrivener. It lets you jump around and write the scenes you already know, and just use "place holders" for the other parts you're still fleshing out.
Thanks Tom :D ATM I'm still concentrating on ideas for the series at-large before moving on to plotting out scenes. I tried that in the past but ended up tossing out weeks of work because I'm still building the world and figuring out how it and the characters tick.
There’s an axiom that “writing is about rewriting,” and it’s so true. Those weeks of work weren’t wasted – they showed you what didn’t work. =)So don’t be afraid of false starts.
This is just my two cents, but map out the general board game for your series (it’s going to change as you write, but that’s half the fun), but then focus on the story and character arcs for your first novel and start writing.
Put yourself in your damsel’s head, and wake up with her in that room. Then have her start encountering those obstacles. As you do this, your imagination will see areas that you can populate with things that lay the groundwork / foreshadow other books in the series.
Mod
Take this with a grain of salt. *Hands you the salt shaker*
I know my way is not every writer's way, so maybe this won't work for you. But, this is how I went about developing the "world" in which the Spandex Crowd stories* take place: Little by little. I worried about the details as they were needed for the stories. I focused on creating the characters, having them interact, building their relationships, etc. To me, no matter what the story or the setting, it's the characters that the reader wants to get to know first. So, I would start with writing a few stories, maybe short ones, maybe ones no one but you will ever see, just to start fleshing some ideas out and see where things go from there.
*And, yes, I realize I only have one short book of "Spandex Crowd" stories out, but the world in which they take place is something I have developed over twenty years. I will be publishing more books in time.
Salt shakers are always welcome :DYou all are so right about getting into the headspace as well as symbolism behind the characters and scenes. Eventually I'll be fitting myself into those shoes and walking a few miles but - for the time being - I'm less concerned with characterization as I am understanding the world the characters are in.
Basically, I want to establish semantics, physical properties and technical details before I worry about how the characters will think or react. Like focusing on setting the stage and building the scenery before I worry about casting the players and have them learn the lines :)
I guess what I've tasked myself with is figuring out "the rules" - similar to a Dungeons and Dragons guide that tells you how to construct everything before build or playing a character. I want to decide what's "allowed" and what isn't, then feed those details into a map for the series and let that plot it for me.
V.M. - thanks for singling out a couple things that caught your attention! That's genuinely most helpful to me at the moment since it tells me what's drawing the eye and should be points I expand upon and emphasize. While I appreciate all your other advice, of course, THAT is what's helping to coax me out of my rut :D
The deathtraps I have are called “hazards”, which can be tripped or triggered in ways capable of maiming or outright eliminating a contestant in certain instances. It seems their placement is meant to break contestants – wear, tear and punish them for not accepting their place – and instill hopelessness and regret. It’s also implied the House adores “entertaining” its company and seeks to amuse itself with violence and theatrics.
Factions (still toying with what I’m calling them officially) include:
Residents – Those who adopted the House as their home. These would be Cols who are non-contestants (i.e. they waived their right upfront to dispute the Vile Veil or challenge being taken into custody) who underwent a Process of Rehabilitation to domesticate and sophisticate their placement in the House. Manikins – or custodians – serve as “caretakers” to them, forcing them to play house and non-violent games with one another. All of Cols wear masks – typically elaborate face paint – and are exceedingly apathetic and amoral towards contestants, yet occasionally make themselves useful if it suits some agenda.
Occupants - Those who adapted to the House but refuse to make it their home. These would be contestants (Sols) who are determined to either escape or battle their way to the Winner’s Circle to dispute the Vile Veil – or sell-out and allow be bribed into becoming her champions. Some choose that because they fear the Vile Veil cannot be defeated and they will be eliminated. Anybody who consents to reconciling their differences with the Vile Veil are put through a “Process of Refinement”, which is meant to strip out “imperfections” and “weaknesses”. When successful, the Refined Product is branded a “Glint”. When the process fails, they’re considered a “faulty” or “defective” champion, known as a “Fade”.
Seriously, these prompts are so helpful for me figure out what to concentrate on while developing this premise! Thank you! Not to compare myself to Harry Potter but I’m still trying to understand my “Wizarding World”, everything it entails and what belongs in it. Just responding to factions and deathtraps really helped me focus on and articulate what needs to be developed and explained before I worry about characters even :D
Did anything in the premise catch your attention, Tom and Dwayne?
Seriously, this is cool! It's like you guys are quizzing me and if I don't have an answer that's telling me what I need to work on :D
Mod
When I started reading it, I thought of a Twilight Zone episode in which a military officer wakes in a room with no windows or doors. He finds a clown, a ballerina, a bagpipe player and a hobo. None of them know who they are, why they are there or how to get out. I know your story is not like that and is going in a different direction, but I do like that episode. That idea is interesting to me. Seemingly random folks finding themselves trapped in a place and having to learn who they are and why they are where they are.
I have seen both those movies! Ontological mysteries are so fun and freaky when done right. I’m sure they might have unconsciously influenced me – my imagination’s a lint trap at times lol. Also, I was thinking of Silent Hill, Dead Silence and Pan’s Labyrinth in places. Probably more but that’s off the top of my head.Oh I LOVE The Twilight Zone and know which episode you're talking about. That's exactly a vibe I want people to have - thinking how creepy it would be to wake up in a odd place, find they're cast into a part they're "suited" for and treated accordingly.
I think this is going to cause problems with bias (like somebody introducing themselves as a "Thief" will automatically be presumed as somebody predisposed to stealing). Individuals end up treated as outcasts depending on how disreputable or undesirable their part sounds or feeling they're "misfits" if they truly don't associate with whichever part they were given.
A struggle for each character is how much or little they embody their part. The Damsel, for instance, resents Damsels are perceived as helpless and hapless but is also terrified her curiosity will get the better of her or she’s gullible and will be taken advantage of.
I’m not sure if you guys can help me out but I’m still trying to figure out what other characters have knacks for or what their part suggest of them. If you have ideas, I would be so grateful since it might help me with some blind spots I’m having with certain individuals the Damsel encounters. Some characters the Distressing Damsel meets are:
- The Master of Ceremonies
- The Musing Usher
- The Dark Stranger
- The Indomitable Primadonna
- The Mad Barker
- The Skulking Maiden
- The Cankerous Undertaker
Basically nobody gets to pick his or her part but they can embellish it in a way that suggests something of their disposition or motivation as well as distinguish them from whoever held the part before them.
I know it's a little Alice in Wonderland but I'm also hoping it'll give readers a chance to relate to or imagine themselves as these characters better because they're assumed identities and any one of us could have been cast into a part if we were in this situation. Not all the parts are even gender-specific so - as an example - a Stranger could be masculine, eliminated, then the part could be recast to a feminine individual.
Mod
Fantastic film.
Mod
"- The Master of Ceremonies
- The Musing Usher
- The Dark Stranger
- The Indomitable Primadonna
- The Mad Barker
- The Skulking Maiden
- The Cankerous Undertaker"
Intriguing cast of characters, especially the ones I've bolded.
The Twilight Zone episode Dwayne mentioned is what it initially reminded me of as well, which is an awesome premise (and an awesome Twilight Zone episode).
The Cube as well.Don't shy away from it being Alice in Wonderlandish. Just make sure you make it your own.
Courtney wrote: "I have seen both those movies! Ontological mysteries are so fun and freaky when done right. I’m sure they might have unconsciously influenced me – my imagination’s a lint trap at times lol. Also..."Oh, this sounds fascinating! I adore strange fantasy stories.
What about a matronly person? A mother or father figure who is either caring or controlling (in a "I know best" kind of way), or even both.
You mentioned a thief. Maybe someone's part could be that of someone who covets things. They could either be someone who wants something and takes it, or someone who fiercely protects what they already have.
Maybe there could be someone with honesty issues - either an outright liar or fibber or someone who has a bad habit of exaggerating or embellishing the truth. A snake-oil salesmen type, for example.
I don’t think an homage to some elements of Alice in Wonderland is a bad thing but – too true – I’d sooner be doing my own thing than cribbing too closely off a classic’s notes.Dwayne, thank you! Also bolding those characters gives me peace of mind. I was worried they weren't flashy enough compared to some other parts and have been trying to develop them into more dynamic characters. What I have so far is:
- The Musing Usher – As an Usher he’s partial to guiding others to wherever they need to be and seeing them there safely. He also has a knack for noticing things out of place and not getting underfoot, so he has special talents for locating and avoiding hazards as well as hidden exits. Per his embellishment, he prizes insights and revelations – thinking things through. He’s especially fond of riddles, reciting House trivia and quick to puzzle a situation out. He’s also infatuated with oddities, curiosities and other sources of wonderment and maintains the House is an epiphianic prison of sorts. His weapon of choice is a length of rusted chain with a pummel of padlocks on the end.
- The Mad Barker - As a Barker he’s partial to rallying and swaying idle or dispassionate crowds, making them amiable or enthusiastic to participate in something they might have avoided otherwise. A general knack for getting others motivated and directing their attention. His weapon of choice is a Barker’s cane. And he’s “Mad” because…well, he’s pretty pissed about a lot of what’s happening in the House and everything people are getting put through but tries not to wear it on his sleeve. Nonetheless, there’s nothing he wouldn’t do to see the whole show shutdown and is the Indomitable Primadonna’s loyalist supporter. He believes she can do what he can only aspire to and will see her succeed.
- The Cankerous Undertaker – As an Undertaker she’s partial to morbid outlooks and gallows humor (as well as her weapon of choice being a shovel, like the Damsel carries) but has interpreted her part differently from her predecessors – she’s not just about burying the competition, she believes in committing herself to “undertakings”. She will pledge herself to a goal and stop at nothing to see it realized, even if that means biding her time and playing a long game. And her embellishment is reflective of surly disposition and generally hard to get along with personality. She’s more interested in getting the job done than being popular and knows ruthless opposition and dire stakes don’t allow anybody the luxury of attachments or friends.
Does that sound like a good track so far? In one respect I’m trying to make it so readers can see how everybody got their parts and how there’s a certain power into playing it up but also prone to weaknesses or conflict.
Melissa – thanks so much for that!
I’m sure I have a Thief somewhere in the story; definitely a Traitor bobbing around lol.
As Head of the House, the Vile Veil fancies herself something of a mother-figure, though nobody’s inclined to be comforted by her presence. She’s more likely to hide in your bed and stuff a pillow over your face than tuck you into it.
And so FUNNY you mentioned fibbing – I’ve actually been toying and toiling with how much “fibbery” is happening around the House. Where I left it before I ran out of steam, outright lying is damn hard so most of them get adept at stretching the truth or leaving inconvenient bits out. That way everybody has to pay close attention to what’s being said – or not said – since there could be a riddle or trap in words.
Mod
And he’s “Mad” because…"
So, mad as in angry, not demented? I still like him, anyway.
The Mad Hatter is my all-time favorite fictional character. Just a bit of random trivia. I was seeing The Mad Barker as a little bit of The Mad Hatter mixed with a circus barker, in white face. I love circus stuff. More random trivia.
My best advice? JUST WRITE! Write every day, some of it will fall into place and others you will trash, but that is the way it goes.....you write and you write some more!
I think when I came up with the Mad Barker I was being punny like "barking mad" and after that word play creeps in a lot. He's a bit crazy because everyone is a little off in the House but so far it's more a temperamental mad than mental issue with him :)That's actually a good question I should ask - do people really like kooks and eccentrics bobbing along the page? I've been shying away from that for fear of irritating readers.
Hi Green - thanks for joining :)I do write about twenty hours a week but right now it's all notes and outlining until I'm straight on the world and how it works. I actually ended up wasting a year because I got ahead of myself and couldn't figure out how to make the story work. I've only been able to salvage a little of what I previously wrote so I'm being responsible and taking a big step back before worryingly about trying to write this book again.
I need something I'm proud of and makes sense since any time I write and hope it works out it inevitably makes me deeply disappointed with the results :(
Oh well - we all have our own process and mine obviously needs more planning and less improve.
Mod
Eccentrics and kooks are wonderful. They're fun to write about and to read about. If you love to write about kooks, go for it. Don't worry about the readers. No writer in history has ever been able to please every reader and you won't be the first. No matter what you do, someone won't like it. But, someone else will love it. So, don't worry about upsetting the readers.
So it's cool if I have people eating crayons after they finish drawing on walls? lol
Mod
That or you could have them do something strange. I mean, everyone eats crayons. Right?
Right?
Why are you all looking at me like that?
- sets down paste jar - We all know something about acquired tastes, I believe.
That paste and those crayons better be gluten free.
Mod
Oh, no, no. The gluten is not free. It will cost you.
I have nothing against gluten, really. It's lactose that I can't tolerate. That's right. I'm a lactist.
Courtney wrote: "I've been shying away from that for fear of irritating readers."You can't write for people you don't know. Trying to will end unhappily. Write for yourself so you can have readers to irritate -- and readers to please -- later.
Courtney wrote: "do people really like kooks and eccentrics bobbing along the page?"More than Mary Sues and Gary Stus.
Courtney wrote: "Hi all - aspiring author with writer's block in need of support ^_^Currently, I've tasked myself outlining a "user's manual"/compendium for a dark fantasy series I'm writing - The Last Damsel - a..."
Hi Courtney,
Wow, this is fantastic! I love a novel that pushes past the boundaries of the 'norm'. If all else fails I would definitely give it a go :) You certainly seem to have a clear outline and direction of story in mind! Now I'm an editor not a writer but I do know how difficult it can be to create a world that is outside of ours. The complexity can get in the way of the writing and personally I think the best thing to do if you haven't already is get it all on paper. My sister writes for fun and has started a couple of novels and I know that what she does is create a 'character' and 'world' template. So, for example, she would have character's name, description if known, alias/nickname, occupation, personality type ect and then she brainstorms what she already knows or wants for them and fill it in. This gives her an instant reference but she can still change or evolve it at will. She does the same thing for the world or kingdom ect. This may not work for you but then again it just might. Maybe if you just get all that extra info out you'll be freed up to write :) Either way, I hope it helps.
As for my personal piece of advice; don't worry about it and just go for it :) Once you get past that initial beginning your confidence will grow!
Well, I hope this helps in some small way. I am happy to give any advice you may like :) Just PM me if you want! I am happy to help :)
Katie-bree.
Mod
So, you have a damsel (presumably in distress), but I don't see a gallant knight bent on rescuing yon fair maiden.
The concept sounds great, but I've got to be honest. When I got to the end I was just thinking what a great video game it would make. Dibs on The Indomitable Primadonna.
This sounds interesting. I would second the people saying to shift focus to your characters now. You have so much world detail laid out, it's probably time to put people in it. Also, with regard to your characters' struggles being based on what role they are cast as, could you think of a character and then think of the best/worst role they could be forced into? What do they love/hate? How they would react to certain assignments? What would be an ironic or fitting role for them? Like, would a pious religious zealot be cast as a whore or a nun, or a murderer be cast as a policeman? This might also lead you in interesting directions as to why these people have been selected?
Hi all - I'm on my smartphone (and at work) so I'll reply as I can.Katie-bree - Thank you so much for that vote of confidence. It's super encouraging to think the idea itself has potential.
Honestly, I have about 150 pages of notes/outline I'm working in regarding characters, world, terms and plot points for the series which have been a work in process for the last two years (including scrapped) drafts.
So I'm all about working out the kinks, reevaulating what I do and making things go smoother nest time I write. I'm definitely shaping up to be an author who spends intense amounts of time on a single project rather than one who produces several books a year.
Oh, I'm in good company since GRRM and Neil Gaiman are similarly slow-paced :)
Daniel and V.M. - Actually you guys are about the tenth and eleventh persons to say it sounds like a video game. Fortunately, nobody who's mentioned that to me has said it in a way that makes me feel that's necessarily a bad thing so I'll probably just roll with that vibe, see how I can incorporate that into a novel. If you guys have thoughts on adding video game elements to a novel I'm all ears! I'm a table top RPG fan myself so - while outlining/taking notes - I've been trying to think in those mechanics a little so I know what my characters' limitations are, how magic (affections) work and other such rules :)
Mod
Ah. Then you may appreciate the cover for my upcoming short story. I just posted it in my blog here on Goodreads.
And now it makes more sense why you want to do all the world building first and then move the characters in.
Paul - I'm definitely still working out how the Process of Selection is going to work and what makes someone fit for one part over another. It's a bit of a grey area for me atm and I hate when my story is a mystery even to me lol.
Dwayne, I'll have to check out your cover later when I can see it at home :) But, yeah, this is why I realized I need my own series guide book. It's more than just a plot and characters getting fleshed out, I need to make a world work well enough so the reader will feel sucked in and understand what's going on in it.V.M., I'll definitely be drawing on survival horror. Silent Hill is a personal fave and it is nothing but a mystery place people are trying to escape from with ironic horrors terrorizing them. But it also makes you wonder why only certain people end up in Silent Hill and whether they might belong there.
Dwayne wrote: "Courtney wrote: "So it's cool if I have people eating crayons after they finish drawing on walls? lol"That or you could have them do something strange. I mean, everyone eats crayons. Right?
Rig..."
children eat crayons all the time - nothing new there... they also like to break all the new crayons in the box, then peel off the paper and bite into them
Hi Courtney,No Prob! I am actually an editor and have done a bit of developmental editing so if you want to shoot me any questions feel free :) I love to discuss writing!! And good luck with everything :))
Howdy Courtney,This sounds really awesome. So much to like and be excited about. In terms of you wanting to get the "rules" of the world and such right, and the fact that you mentioned you are familiar with tabletop rpg's, i'll throw out a kind of funky suggestion.
It might help a lot to have you run your contest as session for your rp group, if you have one, or even better (but more daunting) a group of strangers. You will immediately get a sense of what comes across clearly, what doesn't, and what people are really into.
You don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, because you're writing a novel not an rpg. But it would be an interesting test of your world, your conveying of the rules of the House, etc. Just a thought.
Keep us posted though. I would be really down to read this!
-Mark
Katie-Bree - I might take you up on your kindly offer if I can figure out some specific areas to puzzle out and over. What would be your "genres of expertise" so to speak since that might give me an idea of what to query you about :D
Hi Mark - Seriously, do not tempt me into writing/running an RPG because "rabbit hole" is a word in my weekly vocabulary for this project lolI'm thinking of writing maybe a 300 page manual for myself that will be my rulebook for all the fun, games and worldly whatsits and whosits in the series. It'll mean I never have to make it up as I go along or contradict myself later so - eventually - I can just focus on the fun stuff. Giving interesting characters an adventure.
I was discussing this with my roommate last night (he's my BFF and fellow RPG nerd) and it's probably going to be me spending the rest of this year at leadt getting a rulebook done but it'll probably add more twist and layers for my suffering in the end.
But - definitely - I'll be keeping people posted, asking for advise when I hit a snag or slump :)
Courtney wrote: "Katie-Bree - I might take you up on your kindly offer if I can figure out some specific areas to puzzle out and over. What would be your "genres of expertise" so to speak since that might give me ..."Hi Courtney,
The experience I have tends to lean towards developmental editing. I have experience in assisting authors to 'build' characters, ensuring they're realistic and complex, and to be sure their characters grow throughout the length of the novel. I also have experience in helping authors keep pace and suspense throughout the story, developing plot and voice and to 'world-build'. I tend to specialise in fantasy and mild thriller/suspense. To be perfectly honest I love discussing writing in virtually any way :) Take your pick but if it helps I can discuss characters forever :)
Talk soon.
Awesome! It's always help to have a second set of eyes helping with characters especially :)
I love character building-it's so much fun :))
At the moment I’m taking a different approach to character building. Instead of worrying about backstory or personality traits I’m focusing on temperament, coping mechanisms for stress and other nuances that impacts reactions.Is anyone familiar with humorology – the medieval belief that we all had four humors linked to different seasons and behavior patterns which could cause illness or madness when unaligned or morbid?
Anyway, I’ve been drawing from that to establish some basic range for a character’s disposition and what reactions they’re prone to or unlikely to do.
This series has a lot of pseudoscience and superstition in it, so it seems like a good fit – if only for outlining purposes.
Currently, I've tasked myself outlining a "user's manual"/compendium for a dark fantasy series I'm writing - The Last Damsel - and some members here last week were fantastic in helping me abandon a few fears concerning whether the title was even catchy. I was hoping a few wouldn't mind me bouncing ideas off them, just so I can get reactions before investing too much time and energy developing doomed ideas?
An overview of the premise:
***
The Last Damsel series is set in a unworldly place called "The House". Everybody within has no memories predating when they awoke, in a box, in the House's eerie and vast Cellar but all are certain of one thing upon rousing - they've been cast into a part. One belonging to stock characters, vocations, proper nouns and improper folk. Less a name so much as a niche or purpose with so much expectation attached.
The protagonist knows she's a Damsel. Worse, she knows terrible things happen to Damsels in circumstances like these. Her fears don't improve as she explores and uncovers more about the House, specifically she and every inhabitant of it have been taken into its custody - or so the Manikin caretakers pantomime and imply.
Everybody brought in is expected to play their parts, accept their placement and - most of all - want to fit in and belong to the House. And those unwilling may soon find themselves violently departing and the House's vacancy filled by another Sol who may feel more appreciative of their accommodations.
Whoever is not resigned to to permanently reside in the House may choose to contest his or her placement in it; however, doing so makes them a contestant who must dispute the Vile Veil of Vicious Vesper - the Reigning Champion, the Darkness behind the Stars and dreadful deed holder as well as proud owner of the House.
Contesting means touring all the snippets and shards of worlds housed along with them - uncanny Stages with theatrical scenes, each crudely resembling a theme that characters like the Damsel must play along and combat through if they hope to exit. Obstacles and hazards line the floorboards with opponents in the form of marionettes, toys and poppetry dropping from the rafters when not springing from trapdoors.
Contestants must contend with puzzles, riddles along with the Parlor Games of Ghastly Pallor and whatever sideshows the Vile Veil's champions are running. All for the sake seeking keys to unlock other parts in the House while fighting their way to the Winner's Circle - as partners, troupes or going it solo - for the promise of consolation prizes or privilege of stepping into the ring and squaring off against the House's Reigning Champion.
Round after round in a Game nobody wins, with prizes galore - the best of which being what those in the House's custody carried in. However, even if contestants outlast the brutal Process of Elimination and opposing players, even if they do defeat the Vile Veil in a Winner-take-all bout, the House has a final boast for all who seek to beat it:
Even the winners are losers and nobody takes the House.
***
I don't want to overburden the topic header with all the various ideas I'm entertaining but that's the gist of the premise and plot. I'll happily expand upon queries I have or elaborate if anybody joins the topic but just wanted to give people an understanding of what I'm working on first. Basically, get an initial reaction before going into detail on anything.
Again, any thoughts will be helpful or encouraging me - maybe enough to get me out of my creative funk atm. I've had a few too many false starts and ran into dead-ends/blind alleys as a result, so I would genuinely welcome anybody willing to lend their opinion - whether it's reassurance or something to help me improve an existent idea:D