Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Pilgrim's Progress
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Background and Resources
From The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn:"There was some books too ... One was 'Pilgrim's Progress', about a man that left his family it didn't say why. I read considerable in it now and then. The statements was interesting, but tough."
W.H.Owen: "Like Huck Finn, modern readers of The Pilgrim's Progress are liable to find it interesting, but also tough to come to terms with as a literary text. One reason for this may that it is presented as an allegory, a literary form very popular in the Middle Ages and down to the end of the seventeenth century, but which is much less commonly used today."
Tough to come to terms with, perhaps, though if any group is up to the challenge this group is (can it be any harder than Ulysses?) But there is much here not only for the religious reader but for the non-religious reader. Its power and appeal is well stated in an article in the English Journal nearly a century old (from December 1916). A few excerpts:
"Why read the Pilgrim's Progress when the public library is full of sophisticated, up to date stories?...From Samuel Johnson to the Scotch peasants...all classes in society have recognized and enjoyed in Bunyan's work the vivid descriptions, the reality of the characters, and the exciting nature of the incidents, reading the story over and over again.
"[it is a book] which, to the student of literature, is a more profoundly significant one than Paradise Lost or Treasure Island... It is almost Homeric in binding together the superstitions, the inherited code of English ethics, and the English genius for vivid, picturesque detail."
Those are just a few of the comments from this essay, which those wondering whether the book is one worth their time might want to peruse.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/801707?se...
I haven't read this book or Stephen King's "The Stand," but I think King helped keep "Pilgrim's Progress" relevant when he used an idea from a portion of it to resolve how "The Stand" would end. King was at an impasse until he came up with that idea. Many of King's fans consider "The Stand" his best book.
Donald wrote: "I haven't read this book or Stephen King's "The Stand," but I think King helped keep "Pilgrim's Progress" relevant when he used an idea from a portion of it to resolve how "The Stand" would end. Ki..."Well, at least gave it credence or created curiosity for a new and different generation of readers. Like them or not, disagree with them or not, classics of the ilk of The Pilgrim's Progress seem to continue to have "relevance" of one sort or another, including the scope of their influence on other works of art, politics, or philosophy.
For those who are music lovers, I suggest Vaughan Williams' version. I can't say how closely the libretto follows the book, but, for me, the emotions of the music wonderfully evoke the story.
Zeke wrote: "For those who are music lovers, I suggest Vaughan Williams' version. I can't say how closely the libretto follows the book, but, for me, the emotions of the music wonderfully evoke the story."Vaughan Williams spent many years with Pilgrim's Progress, and his wonderful setting to selections from the book is very faithful.
Zeke wrote: "For those who are music lovers, I suggest Vaughan Williams' version. I can't say how closely the libretto follows the book, but, for me, the emotions of the music wonderfully evoke the story."I also love Vaughan Williams' opera, and there are also other works inspired by the book that he wrote over the course of his long career. Although it does follow the book fairly closely, one significant difference is that he names the principal character Pilgrim instead of Christian.
Did Vaughan Williams or someone else write an opera for Bunyan's autobiography Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners? That would be extraordinary.
Nemo wrote: "Did Vaughan Williams or someone else write an opera for Bunyan's autobiography Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners? That would be extraordinary."Not as far as I know. The closest I have found is a set of orchestral variations on Amazing Grace by John Dankworth called "Grace Abounding", but apart from the obvious inspiration of the title, I don't think it has any connection to Bunyan. I haven't been able to find a recording of the piece, so have no idea what it is like.
Deep background on the period:http://www.revolutionspodcast.com/pag...
Odd coincidence that I recommended this guy's work on another thread in this group the other day. He's good though, and it's topical. He's doing a series of podcasts on revolutions, starting with the political upheaval in the reign of Charles I. Great way to get a feel for the era.
Sometimes you run across things that make you say "Huh? No way."Which was my initial reaction to finding an article with a synopsis starting: "This article establishes intertextual connections between Kurt Vonnegut’s
Slaughterhouse-Five and John Bunyan’s The Pilgrim’s Progress."
Huh? Bunyan and Vonnegut?
Won't it be worth joining the discussion if only to find out what on earth there can be that connects these two apparently totally different authors?
I have such fond memories of PP. My mother read it to us children before I started first grade. There was the nice feeling of all of us all cuddled up, and there was an illustration every few pages. I can always bring to mind Christian with his burden on his back. And that Slough of Despond. That was well-illustrated, too.
Kyle wrote: "Deep background on the period:http://www.revolutionspodcast.com/pag...
Kyle, which podcast on that page?
Patrice, it is hard to pinpoint Bunyan's form of Christianity. Puritan, separatist, non-conformist, Baptist, evangelical—take your choice. He spent many years in prison for preaching in churches not approved by the English government.
Zippy wrote: "Kyle wrote: "Deep background on the period:http://www.revolutionspodcast.com/pag...
Kyle, which podcast on that page?"
All of them, actually :). He deals with this period in podcasts 1.1 through 1.16, from the origins of Charles' conflict with parliament to his death. So yeah, very deep background. I'm sure everyone won't have time to listen to all, but the first few are probably good enough just for some setup.
Here's a link to a PDF and an audiobook of "Pilgrim's Progress" I made for anyone who might be interested in experiencing the story without the many scriptural citations that, at least to me, interfere with the story's flow. I made the PDF, while Mary Ann Spiegel of Librivox did the reading. I am editing out the citations. If you would like a copy of her excellent reading with them included, here's the Librivox page-- https://librivox.org/the-pilgrims-pro...
https://greatbooksofthewesterntraditi...
Kyle wrote: "Deep background on the period:http://www.revolutionspodcast.com/pag...
Odd coincidence that I recommended this guy's work on another thread in this group the other day. He's good though, and i..."
Thank you so much for introducing me to this series of podcasts, Kyle. It never fails to amaze me a) how some people find the time to produce this kind of thing and b) how incredibly generous they are in sharing that time and effort with the world.
Pip wrote: "Kyle wrote: "Deep background on the period:http://www.revolutionspodcast.com/pag...
Odd coincidence that I recommended this guy's work on another thread in this group the other day. He's good ..."
Glad you like it. His stuff has gotten me though any number of boring workdays. The History of Rome was his first series, and it's fun to listen to him find his voice in the early episodes if you get used to Revolutions first.
Zeke wrote: "For those who are music lovers, I suggest Vaughan Williams' version. I can't say how closely the libretto follows the book, but, for me, the emotions of the music wonderfully evoke the story."I've only just realised that Vaughan Williams also wrote the music which accompanies Percy Dearmer's 1906 hymn "To Be A Pilgrim", adapted from Part Two of PP. It was one of my favourite songs at primary school and, although I'm not religious, I still love the message of encouragement in the lyrics.
http://cyberhymnal.org/htm/h/w/hwhowv...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/relig...
I think this interview of Marilynne Robinson for The Paris Review makes a wonderful counterpoint for our reading of Pilgrim's Progress:http://www.theparisreview.org/intervi...
She makes several comments about the influence of Calvin on her own life and thinking, reminding us how complex and difficult to pin down his contributions and influence to single-focused admonitions or frustrations with his "sins." (Her comment about God's place for King David in His world is perhaps applicable.) The aloneness of her own journey has overtones of Christian as I read of it, and yet so many ways, so different.
I am not particularly a fan of Robinson's novels, one of which I am currently re-reading for another board (which brought this review to my attention), but I did find this interview intertwined itself with so many of the conversations that have been happening here relative to Bunyan, PP, religion, Calvin...
Whilst doing some background research, I came across this page. It is from Bedford Borough Council in England - Bedford was one of the places where Bunyan was imprisoned. Lots of information about Bunyan's personal life, trials and spiritual journey: http://www.bedfordshire.gov.uk/Commun...
Lori wrote: "Whilst doing some background research, I came across this page. It is from Bedford Borough Council in England - Bedford was one of the places where Bunyan was imprisoned. Lots of information about ..."Great find.
Thanks Everyman. I'm finding that this is one of those books where background research is essential!
Warning. A very irreverent reader's review of PP:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I got there from Alex's review of The Novel.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Lily wrote: "Warning. A very irreverent reader's review of PP:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."
To be honest, I would think the review was written by a teenager, if his age weren't displayed on his profile. Is this tongue-in-cheek?
Nemo wrote: "Lily wrote: "Warning. A very irreverent reader's review of PP:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."
To be honest, I would think the review was written by a teenager, if his age weren..."
If you care, follow a bit of his reading and other reviews and then form your opinion, Nemo. (I got to a few from his review of The Novel.) I don't think it is particularly tongue-in-cheek, just perhaps one of the indicators of the range of reactions to PP. At least, that's why I bothered to post it. But out of the main line of our discussions.
Lily wrote: "Warning. A very irreverent reader's review of PP:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I got there from Alex's review of The Novel.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."
Oh, yes! This lively review is well worth reading. Do we agree with it? And if not, why not? The writer has a tin ear for allegory--I don't know if that's real, affected, or just a product of his distaste for Bunyan's message. But I have to agree with him on the treatment of Talkative and Ignorance.
Nevertheless, I can't join him in dismissing Christian and Bunyan as dumb jerks. I'm not totally sure why.
The reviewer quotes Shaw on PP. It's worth reading the paragraphs from Man and Superman to get the whole context:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Uep...
You wouldn't know it from the reviewer's quote, but Shaw actually seems to like PP for its plainspoken honesty and directness, and its contempt for conventional respectability.
I'm glad you caught this review, Roger! It was largely for your ear that I was audacious enough to post it. (I considered deleting my post when I thought about the review's language this morning.) I appreciate deeply your assessing it. Now look forward to perhaps other reactions.PS -- am enjoying the link to Shaw! Thx.
If I'm not mistaken, Roger's reaction represents the majority of this group, and I the minority. So I feel almost an obligation to engage in a little "Christian" apologetics.I don't think of Christian's treatment of Talkative and Ignorance as pompous and sanctimonious, any more than I consider Jesus' claim that He is the Son of God and He alone is good as arrogant, if I may say so. Why? Because I believe, first, he is telling the truth, second, he is doing it out of love.
The criticisms against the allegorical Christian can be applied to Christianity in general, as I understand them. From a Christian perspective, the difference between faith and unbelief is not merely academic, but is literally a matter of life and death; from the perspective of PP, the difference between the right belief, that is orthodoxy, and heresy is also a matter of life and death. Christian debated Talkative and Ignorance with a sincere desire to save them from perdition, in keeping with the Great Commandment.
Our beliefs not only reflect who we are deep down, but also direct the course of our lives.
I'm again reminded of a story of a writer who started out as a doctor for he wanted to relieve human suffering. But when he saw that those patients who nearly died from drug overdose went right back to drugs after their treatment, he decided to take up writing -- realizing that healing must start with the mind/soul.
From a Christian perspective, Jesus is the Great Physician. Their beliefs in Jesus reflect the work of God in their hearts to make them a new man. God, who commanded light to shine out of darkness in Creation, "has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God", this Light is Jesus. A genuine confession from a Christian is a testimony of the work of God in him, nothing more nothing less.
From a Calvinist (Bunyan was a Calvinist, I think ) perspective, the beliefs of a Christian are direct indications of his spiritual well-being. In other words, heresies are indications of spiritual diseases, and must be diagnosed, treated and cured, if possible. One may disagree with his method, but it would be unfair to charge him with malice, arrogance or hypocrisy.
I just discovered a lecture on Pilgrim's Progress by C. S. Lewis. It is in the Kindle book, C. S. Lewis, Selected Literary Essays. He seems to agree with many here about Talkative:"There are books which, while didactic in intention, are read with delight by people who do not want their teaching and may not believe that they have anything to teach— works like Lucretius’ De Rerum Natura or Burton’s Anatomy. This is the class to which The Pilgrim’s Progress belongs. Most of it has been read and re- read by those who were indifferent or hostile to its theology, and even by children who perhaps were hardly aware of it. I say, most of it, for there are some long dialogues where we get bogged down in sheer doctrine, and doctrine, too, of a sort that I find somewhat repellent. The long conversation, near the end of Part I , which Christian and Hopeful conduct ‘ to prevent drowsiness in this place ’ 1 they are entering the Enchanted Ground— will not prevent drowsiness on the part of many readers. Worse still is the dialogue with Mr Talkative.
"Bunyan— and, from his own point of view, rightly— would not care twopence for the criticism that he here loses the interest of irreligious readers. But such passages are faulty in another way too. In them, the speakers step out of the allegorical story altogether. They talk literally and directly about the spiritual life. The great image of the Road disappears. They are in the pulpit. If this is going to happen, why have a story at all? Allegory frustrates itself the moment the author starts doing what could equally well be done in a straight sermon or treatise. It is a valid form only so long as it is doing what could not be done at all, or done so well, in any other way.
"But this fault is rare in Bunyan— far rarer than in Piers Plowman. If such dead wood were removed from The Pilgrim’s Progress the book would not be very much shorter than it is. The greater part of it is enthralling narrative or genuinely dramatic dialogue. Bunyan stands with Malory and Trollope as a master of perfect naturalness in the mimesis of ordinary conversation."
@13Everyman wrote: "Huh? Bunyan and Vonnegut?Won't it be worth joining the discussion if only to find out what on earth there can be that connects these two apparently totally different authors?..."
See my recent quotation from The Novel for a short answer:
(https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...)
"...Perhaps his chief heir is Kurt Vonnegut, whose Billy Pilgrim in Slaughterhouse Five emerges intact but bleakly transformed from the Valley of the Shadow of Death.” P 62
Laurel wrote: "Allegory frustrates itself the moment the author starts doing what could equally well be done in a straight sermon or treatise. It is a valid form only so long as it is doing what could not be done at all, or done so well, in any other way. "We have a spectrum of opinions here. On the one end, there is Tolkien who detests allegory as bad story-telling, and on the other, Bunyan, who inserts sermons into his allegory, which, according to Lewis, is also bad story-telling.
A question for the authors among us: Is there anything that allegory can do that cannot be done in another way and better?
More on allegory from Lewis:"You remember how the text ‘the wages of sin is death’ 11 is transformed? Asked by Apollyon why he is deserting him, Christian replies: ‘Your wages [were] such as a man could not live on.’ 12 You would hardly believe it, but I have read a critic who objected to that. He thought the motive attributed to Christian was too low. But that is to misunderstand the very nature of all allegory or parable or even metaphor. The lowness is the whole point. Allegory gives you one thing in terms of another. All depends on respecting the rights of the vehicle, in refusing to allow the least confusion between the vehicle and its freight. The Foolish Virgins, within the parable, do not miss beatitude; they miss a wedding party. 13 The Prodigal Son, when he comes home, is not given spiritual consolations; he is given new clothes and the best dinner his father can put up. 14 It is extraordinary how often this principle is disregarded. The imbecile, wisely anonymous, who illustrated my old nursery copy of The Pilgrim’s Progress makes a similar blunder at the end of Part II . Bunyan has been telling how a post came for Christiana to say that she was to cross the river and appear in the City within ten days. She made her farewells to all her friends and ‘entered the River with a Beck’n’ (that is a wave) ‘of Fare well, to those that followed her to the River side’. 15 The artist has seen fit to illustrate this with a picture of an old lady on her death- bed, surrounded by weeping relatives in the approved Victorian manner. But if Bunyan had wanted a literal death- bed scene he would have written one.
"This stupidity perhaps comes from the pernicious habit of reading allegory as if it were a cryptogram to be translated; as if, having grasped what an image (as we say) ‘means’, we threw the image away and thought of the ingredient in real life which it represents. But that method leads you continually out of the book back into the conception you started from and would have had without reading it. The right process is the exact reverse. We ought not to be thinking ‘This green valley, where the shepherd boy is singing, represents humility’; we ought to be discovering, as we read, that humility is like that green valley. That way, moving always into the book, not out of it, from the concept to the image, enriches the concept. And that is what allegory is for."
Nemo wrote: "Laurel wrote: "Allegory frustrates itself the moment the author starts doing what could equally well be done in a straight sermon or treatise. It is a valid form only so long as it is doing what co..."Bunyan is writing for common folk, unsophisticated and often unlettered. These are people who perhaps have slept through many a sermon about the vanity of earthly life. Bunyan make Vanity a physical place and tells a story about it. Other vices and sins become characters who speak and act. He conveys a message about what the righteous and holy life is like without being tedious (mostly).
Yet such is his genius that even the sophisticated and learned can read PP with pleasure, as long as they bring a little humility to their reading, and are not hostile towards his message.
Roger wrote: "Yet such is his genius that even the sophisticated and learned can read PP with pleasure, as long as they bring a little humility to their reading, and are not hostile towards his message...."Well put, Roger. I do think, however, more than one message can be considered to be embedded in PP, and a reader may agree with some and not with others. Pleasure need not imply agreement. I'm also not totally convinced that "humility" is the necessary attribute so much as simply a willingness to go along for the ride. (Maybe that's kind of what you mean by "humility"?) Analogy: some readily read poetry, others must give in to it to enjoy it and take meaning from it. I feel as if the same may be true for allegory.
I tend to think that humility in reading means, instead of saying, "This author is making stupid mistakes", asking ourselves and others, "What am I missing?"
Laurel wrote: "I just discovered a lecture on Pilgrim's Progress by C. S. Lewis. ..."Great find. I have always been fond of Lewis, and this is a good example of why.
Lily wrote: " I do think, however, more than one message can be considered to be embedded in PP, and a reader may agree with some and not with others. "Oh, absolutely. And I don't think Roger would disagree.
Everyman wrote: "Laurel wrote: "I just discovered a lecture on Pilgrim's Progress by C. S. Lewis. ..."Great find. I have always been fond of Lewis, and this is a good example of why."
I was taken aback at Lewis' calling an artist "imbecile" for not confirming to his idea of how allegory works, almost forgetting that he did have a temper like the rest of us.
Roger wrote: "Nemo wrote: "Laurel wrote: "Allegory frustrates itself the moment the author starts doing what could equally well be done in a straight sermon or treatise. It is a valid form only so long as it is ..."That's well said, Roger!
Lily wrote: "Warning. A very irreverent reader's review of PP:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I got there from Alex's review of The Novel.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."
I read his review before I started listening to PP and enjoyed it. But, as with everything it's one person's opinion and I read other reviews which I also enjoyed who read it and loved it (although a lot of those were often 'I've loved this all my life as a christian guiding light' rather than a 'I'm reading this for the first time and evaluating it as a work of literature'). What I liked most about the review was his putting down clearly what didn't work for him. Those people who take the time to make clear what they like/didn't like do the best reviews imo, rather than just 'it was rubbish and I hated it'.
I could also see his views of other works of literature, as he's clearly well read.
Nicola wrote: "...Those people who take the time to make clear what they like/didn't like do the best reviews imo, rather than just 'it was rubbish and I hated it'...."And that can be hard work, work that I am not sure our educational systems teach us how to do. We often need to learn how by trial and error as well as by observing what others do -- and opening ourselves to feedback?
Chesterton on Bunyan (in an article about Carlyle):"Christ, St Francis, Bunyan, Wesley, Mr Gladstone, Walt Whitman, men of indescribable variety, were all alike in a certain faculty of treating the average man as their equal, of trusting to his reason and good feeling without fear and without condescension. It was this simplicity of confidence, not only in God, but in the image of God, that was lacking in Carlyle."
Laurel wrote: "Chesterton on Bunyan (in an article about Carlyle):"Christ, St Francis, Bunyan, Wesley, Mr Gladstone, Walt Whitman, men of indescribable variety, were all alike in a certain faculty of treating t..."
There is a saying attributed to Socrates (though I cannot trace its origin), “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Bunyan did treat the average man as his equal, equally in need of grace and mercy, though I don't think he trusted "to his reason and good feeling", if he was indeed a Calvinist and believed the TULIP.
Nemo, this is why I think it is counterproductive to try to label people with Calvinism and a plethora of other isms. It makes them fit into a rigid box with no thought given to differences and varieties.
Laurel wrote: "Nemo, this is why I think it is counterproductive to try to label people with Calvinism and a plethora of other isms. It makes them fit into a rigid box with no thought given to differences and var..."But there are also many differences and varieties within Calvinism, just as there are in Christianity. I wouldn't mind being labelled a "Christian", although, if I were put on trial for it, I would be acquitted easily for lack of evidence.
Labelling is counterproductive only if used as a device to forestall further dialogue and understanding, imo.
Right. That's what I mean: people attach the label and forget the individual.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Gilead (other topics)Gilead (other topics)
Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners (other topics)
Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners (other topics)
The Pilgrim's Progress (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Marilynne Robinson (other topics)Marilynne Robinson (other topics)
Bunyan (1628-1888) lived at a time of great social, political, and religious upheaval. He was 14 when the Civil War between Charles 1 and Parliament broke out, which ended with the defeat and execution of Charles and the triumph of the Puritan Cromwell. At age 16 he joined the Parliamentary army, leaving it after three years to join his father as a tinker. The next years were ones of great spiritual crisis for him, which he described in his quite powerful spiritual autobiography Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners. This was a time when many new Protestant denominations were emerging or developing. For a time in the 1650s religious toleration was a somewhat doctrine, but when Charles II was restored to the throne in 1660 the government started to exert its authority over religious matters, starting by “cleaning” the Church of England from non-conforming clergymen through the 1661 Act of Uniformity requiring the use of the Book of Common Prayer in all places of worship, and then turning to“suppressing every trace of religious dissent in England.” [W.R. Owens] In 1660 Bunyan had been warned that a warrant was out for him, but chose to keep preaching, “believing that he had been singled out by God to suffer persecution for the faith.” [WRO] He was duly arrested and sentenced to jail where he spent twelve years until released in 1672, but was jailed again for six months in 1677. During his times in prison he wrote several books including The Pilgrim’s Progress.
The book has been one of the most widely read books in the English language, and since its original publication has never been out of print.