⋆.ೃ࿔࿐ྂfaith & fantasy⋆.ೃ࿔࿐ྂ discussion
✯Games✯
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⭒First Thoughts⭒
I still have to side with Bella on this matter though :)
(I don’t want to start a fight so I’ll say this last thing. The Bible clearly says women should not lead a church or a high position of authority like that. I can give you verses if you want 😁)
Thank you, it's nice to see a Christian male who agrees on that. :)
(Btw, this sort of thing is one of my biggest issues with Christian Fiction)
(1 Corinthians 11:3, Ephesians 5:21-33, Genesis 2:18 [keyword helper], Genesis 3:16, 1 Timothy 3:17 [it says he multiple times], Titus 2:3-5, 1 Timothy 2:12. I have more if you want more 😁)
(You said you didn't want to fight, so I'm trying not to...)
(I’m not trying to fight. Just backing up my claim)
(I know, I will say, I've read like all those verses recently, because I'm reading through the NT.)
(Oh ok cool! 😁)
(It’s about interpretation. God is often called ‘helper’ in Scripture, but that doesn’t mean He’s subordinate to human beings)
(I never said that women were less then. All I said was that women have different roles. Men lead, women do not)
(See 1 Timothy 2:12)
olivia.margaret wrote: "where'd the first thoughts go??"A very good question.
(There were female leaders in the Bible too. Mabe read this article: https://bibleengagementproject.com/en...)
(Also, one that this article doesn't mention is the Woman at Well, who went and told the men of the village about Jesus)
(No I know there was female leaders what I’m saying we’re not supposed to lead a church or a country. Those positions are not for us. It says deacons and pastors are for men; like some of the verses I listed. God designed men to lead roles like that not us)
(I also didn’t say we couldn’t tell men about Jesus. All I’m saying is roles like pastor or president are reserved for men and men only. The Bible says so.)
(Well, according to a literalistic interpretation of the Bible, women are not supposed to teach, right? But is not evangelization a form of teaching? Did not Mary Magdalene announce the resurrection of Christ to the apostles?)
(I never said women couldn’t teach. I think we should go spread the word to everyone and anyone. But the Bible says we can’t be pastors or high positions like that and that’s ok. There’s no shame in that.)
(This essay :https://www.regent.edu/journal/inner-... says, what I've often thought, that Paul's statement in 1 Timothy 2:9-15 may have been about the specific situation, where the woman were spreading false doctrine.)
🍚🍙
(Yeah, I’m Catholic, so we only believe men can be ordained to the priesthood, but that doesn’t mean women can’t lead or teach or have ‘higher positions.’ Women can’t lead, and should be political leaders :) and men & women are equal partners in marriage. Some of the language Evangelicals use is just.. infantilizing. If I married a woman, I don’t want to treat her like a child 😅 I want a woman who’s my partner, my emotional and spiritual equal, someone who I make decisions WITH, not someone I command around, like a child)
(Yeah, I’m Catholic, so we only believe men can be ordained to the priesthood, but that doesn’t mean women can’t lead or teach or have ‘higher positions.’ Women can’t lead, and should be political leaders :) and men & women are equal partners in marriage. Some of the language Evangelicals use is just.. infantilizing. If I married a woman, I don’t want to treat her like a child 😅 I want a woman who’s my partner, my emotional and spiritual equal, someone who I make decisions WITH, not someone I command around, like a child)
(I also personally things were different back then. I mean, no one argues that we should go back to having slaves, right? In Paul's time, a woman preaching would be scandalous, and sadly, probably no one would listen. Nowadays, people are much more likely to listen to a woman.)
(@Stephan THANK YOU. Although I do disagree on the subject of priesthood. Of course, I'm not Catholic...)
(I personally as a child wanted to become a priest. I had even memorized all the lines the priests say during the mass. So imagine my great sadness when a cruel child told me it was an impossible dream, a girl can't become a priest.)
(Like I said before, if you’re not a wise man you’ll boss around your wife. But if your wise you’ll seek her council. Yes you’re equal in marriage BUT the husband is the head so he makes the ultimate decision. A lot of men like to use Scripture so they can boss around their wife and treat them less than. But that’s NOT what Scripture is saying.)
Kanomi Okina wrote: "(I personally as a child wanted to become a priest. I had even memorized all the lines the priests say during the mass. So imagine my great sadness when a cruel child told me it was an impossible d..."(But why not? Do you agree with that?)
(I'm catholic. Females can become sisters or Mothers, but not priests.)
The M (GOD PROTECT ISRAEL 🇮🇱) wrote: "(Like I said before, if you’re not a wise man you’ll boss around your wife. But if your wise you’ll seek her council. Yes you’re equal in marriage BUT the husband is the head so he makes the ultima..."(Well, in the words of Laura Ingalls Wilder, "I don't think I could ever obey someone against my better judgement.")
Bella (The Seventh Crow) wrote: "Kanomi Okina wrote: "(I personally as a child wanted to become a priest. I had even memorized all the lines the priests say during the mass. So imagine my great sadness when a cruel child told me i..."(I don't agree because I believe Mary Magdalene was one of the first priests. She was the one who Jesus first appeared to, not the apostles.)
(Also, I started reading that article Bella, and something caught my eye. It says, “Evaluating scripture using ideological rhetoric, is when world view and narrative technique, "meet in Holy Alliance.” You’re NOT supposed to meld world view with Scripture. God says so. It is not right, it twists Scripture, it waters it down, and diminishes its value. It’s simply wrong.)
(Yeah, that’s fair, but priests aren’t just pastors in the Protestant sense. They stand ‘in persona Christi” when they administer the Sacraments. Plus, our understanding is that Christ when selecting the 12 apostles, only picked men. He picked other roles for women, and that’s honestly okay :) there’s things women can do that men never can).
The M (GOD PROTECT ISRAEL 🇮🇱) wrote: "(Also, I started reading that article Bella, and something caught my eye. It says, “Evaluating scripture using ideological rhetoric, is when world view and narrative technique, "meet in Holy Allian..."(Oh, well, I only skimmed through that one, BUT, I did agree with some of their points)
(Oh ok. Just thought I’d point that out 😁
(Yes! There are things only women can do and only men can do! And that’s ok!)
(Bye Bella!!!)
(The M, you do know the Bible is written from a particular worldview, don’t you? 😅 A Jewish/Hellenistic worldview lol)
Paul was trained as a rhetorician. The Bible, like Christ, is fully human and fully divine. It’s the Word of God, but it’s also a historical document(s), time- bound, and comes from a specific cultural epoch(s)
(Are you saying the Bible isn’t that relevant because people from a different time and culture wrote it? Because if so, that’s wrong. Everything the Bible says is still true today. It doesn’t change because the world’s values change. Everything in it is truth then, now, and for the future.)
(You can’t (you is general here I’m not actually saying you, Loki) change the interpretation because the world’s views change.)
(No, I’m not 😅 you’re jumping to conclusions, M lol. St. Paul does use ‘ideological rhetoric.’ Bella posted an academic article. Words like ‘ideological’ don’t have the same negative connotations like they might in popular usage).
(Sorry if it sounded like I was accusing you of anything 😅 I wasn’t trying to sound that way 😅)
(The error many Evangelicals fall into is they read the Bible outside of its historical eras. And, as a result, often misinterpret it. The Bible wasn’t intended to be a private book one reads by themselves anyways. Not even the Protestant Reformers like Martin Luther intended that. If I’m not mistaken, it was the Puritans and the Anabaptists who emphasized the private reading of the Bible)
(No, no, I read it in and outside of the eras [also I’m a a Reformer not an Evangelical] but that doesn’t mean our roles as men in women change. I mean yes, we can have more jobs now as women but leadership roles change.Also, I never said the Bible should just be read privately. I believe it should be read to others, with believers, and alone too.
Also, how I’ve been doing my personal Bible studies is the Then Always Now method. I read the passage and I break it up. What was this passage saying then? What is always true about this passage, and what is relevant to now? So I look at all aspects.
(Leadership roles do not change* major typo 😅)
FT: you’re fun to talk to :) we should take this to dm, provided I don’t leave GR lol
Ok sorry 🤣
(Wait, you’re leaving GR?)
⋆.ೃ࿔࿐ྂfaith & fantasy⋆.ೃ࿔࿐ྂ
Books mentioned in this topic
My Contrary Mary (other topics)Salt to the Sea (other topics)
(umm... how to respnd to that... my mind has gone blank)