Mary Barton by Elizabeth Gaskell - Group Read (hosted by Claudia) 2nd thread

[Connie]

I understand how people might find the ending too perfect, but after so many deaths, I was ready for a happy ending. The birth of Johnnie was a bright spot after so much starvation, illness, and other deaths in Manchester. The journey over the ocean to Canada was a means for a rebirth, and a new life.

[Sue]

I agree it was nice to have the good news after so much terrible news. I think that’s why I just wish there had been a different structure for her to use to indicate the passage of time rather than just “conclusion.” Of course this was ? her first book so the notion of easing into the ending may not have occurred as important since the major events had been dealt with. (And I have never written a novel and probably shouldn’t complain too loudly about a published writer’s work. :-) )

[Lori]

I agree with what has been said already about the ending being too tidy yet, I look at it as I did the melodramatic moments and don’t mind the way she decided to end it. I appreciate Claudia’s thoughts about the garden metaphor as I didn’t see that at all. I had hoped for more for Esther as far as a redemption story and a new chance at life. And the new start is perfect for me in a story filled with so much death and suffering.

I am so glad I read this in this way and feel I got so much more out of it than if I’d read it alone. Claudia did such a fantastic job and my appreciation goes out to you for all of your time and energy to make this read so wonderful!! Thank you!! Now when I pick up another Gaskell novel I’ll remember this great experience!

[Claudia]

Thank you Lori for your beautifully expressed appreciation!

And thank you all!

In fact I got much more out of this read while researching, preparing my posts (and trying to be clear) and reading your comments than I did when I first read the novel on my own.

Do not hesitate to read Ruth and Sylvia's Lovers, less known than North and South, which is more well-known because of the mini-series, starring Richard Armitage. However there are some differences between the novel and the adaptation. North and South is a great novel too and worth reading.

North and South was published in installments in Household Words the same year as Hard Times by Charles Dickens. This, and some disagreement about Cranford caused a conflict between these two strong personalities.

[Claudia]

Katy wrote: "I am not sure about the nameless grave, as I do not know what burial customs were in vogue at the time for people who would be classified as "sinners". The verse inscribed on the stone seemed to in..."

Thank you so much Katy!

Indeed burial customs may differ according to times, traditions, rules and religious denomination.

However the verse engraved into the stone is a promise of God's forgiveness and will be read through the years and seasons to come.

[Franky]

I liked this one better than North and South. I liked how Gaskell ties everything together pretty nicely at the end, too. It was an enjoyable, sentimental, read with some parallels to Charles Dickens and Wilkie Collins here and there. Thanks for picking this one and all the discussion points and commentary! Thank you Claudia for leading the discussion and bringing in so much depth to this novel!

[Sue]

Claudia, thanks for all of your preparation for this reading. Your comments for each chapter added details that opened up the reading for me and much of it will likely add up further planned reading of Gaskell’s books. As did the general discussion. These slow reads are so worthwhile.

[Kathleen]

Thank you so much, Claudia, for this excellent tour through Mary Barton. This is the first time I’ve read one of Gaskell’s books, and now I want to read more. Your thoughts and comments were all very illuminating. I hope we might tour together again!

[Petra]

I enjoyed this book immensely. The ending may have been a bit perfect, but it was an ending this couple deserved after all they've been through.

I also would have enjoyed some redemption for Esther and a few years of bliss & happiness in Canada with her family. But Life isn't always that perfect.
Plus, Esther now keeps John company and the engraving does promise forgiveness for these lost souls.

All in all, I thoroughly enjoyed this novel. Mrs. Gaskell draws a reader into the lives of her characters.

Thank you, Claudia, for all your hard work. You brought enjoyment and thought to each chapter as we made our way through this story. I liked the format of 2 days on/1 day off, too. Thank you for all the effort you put into making this a wonderful experience for us all.

[Connie]

Claudia, this slow read is one of my 2024 reading highlights! I enjoyed all your commentary, and appreciate all the time you spent in preparation for this read. The book had wonderful characters and an important look back into history. You've turned me into a Gaskell fan, and I would love to read more of her books. Thank you very much.

[Claudia]

Thank you so much all for your kind words!

I am delighted that you enjoyed this read.

Hosting this common reading with such a wonderful group was an enjoyable adventure for me too. I hope that we will have an opportunity to read another book by Mrs Gaskell in the future. I already have an idea!

I agree with Franky on his own ranking of Mary Barton before North and South!

[Antoinette]

I want to echo everyone’s thanks, Claudia. I really appreciate all your efforts throughout this read. You were a marvellous leader!

[Kathleen]

Claudia, I would be delighted to participate in a similar read of another Glaskell book!

[Sam]

Hello all! My thoughts on the end of the novel pretty much echo what I am reading in comments. I agree Gaskell seemed to have some issues in ending things and her tying up of loose ends seemed a bit rushed. Despite some sentimentality, and melodramatic elements, the good outweighed the bad IMO, and I absolutely loved her oblique ways of getting into scenes and her way of incorporating details and business into the storyline to add realism, provoke interest, and to keep us entertained. Although there are numerous major examples, like her using the satirical sketch in portraying troubles between workers and masters, ironically, it is the minor examples that caught my attention, like her focus Mary's cooking in the chapter where John was going out to commit his crime, or the where Charley stops to show Mary the sights of Liverpool while she is rushing to catch Will.

Again, I agree with everyone that Claudia was excellent in her role, adding much more to the reading than I would have gleaned had I read it by myself. Thanks for that. And count me in if there is another Gaskell or other author's book chose by Claudia for a deeper read. The only someone disappointing thought is that it is now over. Thankfully, the next read usually dismisses that disappointment.

[Claudia]

Sam wrote: "Hello all! My thoughts on the end of the novel pretty much echo what I am reading in comments. I agree Gaskell seemed to have some issues in ending things and her tying up of loose ends seemed a bi..."

Thank you Sam!

Great points on Elizabeth Gaskell's technique of obliquely incorporating some apparently minor details!

I indeed noticed the contrast between Mary who was ill at ease and yet preparing a meal for John, John Barton who was visibly upset by something (to say the least) and Job Legh who had joined and obviously was not in a hurry to leave.

In fact readers of all times have experienced such situations in real life - cooking for someone who does not want to eat, feeling awkward for some various untold reasons. You did well mentioning that such details add realism and keep us entertained.

[Katy]

To echo Kathleen and Sam, I also would like to participate in another group read of a Gaskell book if it comes up in the future.

[Sue]

Ditto on Katy’s message, should there be another Gaskell novel reading.

[Laura Cort]

I recently read Sylvia's Lovers and I have just started Ruth

[Claudia]

Laura Cort wrote: "I recently read Sylvia's Lovers and I have just started Ruth"

Great! Enjoy!

[Lee]

What remains with me about this novel is the character John Barton. In some ways he was the most interesting character in the book. The author attempted to create in him a multi-dimensional character, and in large part she succeeded. But I think John Barton was more than Gaskell was prepared to investigate; she wanted Mary Barton to be the heroine and so just allowed the father to disappear for long periods of time.

His self-inflicted shame and his deep expression of repentance for the murder still haunts me. We don’t fully comprehend his motivations but we were given strong hints of his values and loyalty to the community. What inner demons haunted this man? And what untold potential might he have had if there had been no gun and no murder? He was the most complicated character in the book, and I believe that had Mrs Gaskell been more ambitious, she might have made him a far more powerful instrument of her messages of love,Repentance and forgiveness than Mary ever could be.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Claudia, what a treat you have provided us with here! 😊 Thank you so much for all your work on this exemplary group read; such great leadership holding it all together and responding to all comments. We appreciate both your research and your insights, and also your ability to convey the broader issues. Your expertise in European literature and history has provided such a benefit to the group. Bravo! 👏👏

The final official day for commenting is Saturday, but I'm sure Claudia (and others) will be happy to read any extra comments after the threads have found their new home. This slow read provides a great resource for future readers of Mary Barton.

Thanks to everyone, for these fantastic ongoing discussions of a book very dear to my heart. We've all gained a new perspective, I think.

[Lee]

I echo the appreciation of everyone here. Thank you, Claudia, and for myself- thank you for the introduction to an author I might never have read. I enjoyed your comments and the novel very much!

[Claudia]

Thank you very much Jean for your appreciation! It was a rewarding job for me to hear that our fellow readers are satisfied! It was a fruitful collaboration with all!

Thank you Lee! I am glad that you enjoyed your first read of a novel by Mrs Gaskell.

Indeed, John Barton is in my opinion too a character who stays with us, perhaps because he embodies the plight of the workers of that time and place, but also because Mrs Gaskell's characterisation of him is instinctive and powerful.

I also appreciated Sam's useful comments about details, obliquity and technique of immersing us efficiently and emotionally into the story.

Elizabeth Gaskell wrote to her friend Mrs Greg early in 1849:

"'John Barton' was the original title of the book. Round the character of John Barton all the others formed themselves; he was my hero, the person with whom all my sympathies went, with whom I tried to identify myself at the time, because I believed from personal observation that such men were not uncommon, and would well reward such sympathy and love as should throw light down upon their groping search after the causes of suffering, and the reason why suffering is sent, and what they can do to lighten it."

[Sam]

Claudia wrote: "Thank you very much Jean for your appreciation! It was a rewarding job for me to hear that our fellow readers are satisfied! It was a fruitful collaboration with all!

Thank you Lee! I am glad that..."

That is an interesting quote, Claudia. Were I to characterize John Barton I would call him Byronic, very much the romantic male model of the preceding literary period. I do not know if Gaskrll had such comparisons in mind but it is food for thought.

I cannot tell everyone how much I love these leader-led group reads paced as they are in the Dickensians. They are easily my favorite reads at present and if I had a criticism, it would be that there aren't enough, but that may be why they are so enjoyable. Thanks again Claudia for this one and Jean for making it all possible.

[Claudia]

"...and Jean for making it all possible." wrote Sam.

Indeed, thank you so much Jean for having entrusted me with the key to the house and for the upstream organisation!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

And we'll definitely trust you with the keys again, Claudia (that is the Dickensians! "we" by the way, not the royal prerogative! 😂)

Sam too - just let me know! As for frequency, it's wonderful that you enjoy and contribute to them so much - I'm really pleased. But having led a couple of shorts yourself, you will be able to appreciate just how much preparation and work a full-length slow read takes whoever leads it, "our" way 😊

[Stephen]

Maybe last to finish, but finished. Great leadership Claudia, I echo everyone's words. And great comments from the group.

I agree, a little too neat at the end for me, but I did enjoy my first Gaskell read and would love to read another with this group.

[Claudia]

Thank you Stephen! I am happy to hear that you enjoyed this read and our common group experience!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

I too am so pleased that you completed the group read of this novel Stephen, and look forward to you joining in again with our future reads 😊