Dickensians! discussion

34 views
Dickens' Favourite 19th C Novels > Mary Barton by Elizabeth Gaskell - Group Read (hosted by Claudia) 2nd thread

Comments Showing 101-150 of 229 (229 new)    post a comment »

message 101: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Thank you all for your comments! Yes, these chapters were short but the suspense is increased.

We will be onboard a Yellow Submarine until we resurface on Monday 27 May and read chapter 29!


message 102: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 25, 2024 08:22AM) (new)

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8607 comments Mod
About Liverpool ... it's the 4th biggest city in England. (1. London, 2. Birmingham, 3. Manchester, 4. Liverpool) and the oldest and largest port. I was going to write a bit of info., (as we usually do in "Dickensians!") but will make an exception and instead link to this very comprehensive article, for those who would like to dig a little deeper. Hopefully this won't divert attention from this riveting read!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool

This one is about Liverpool in the 19th century, if you scroll down

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...

and this one is about the docks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of...


message 103: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Thank you Jean! I will certainly follow your advice and links!


message 104: by Kathleen (last edited May 25, 2024 05:57AM) (new)

Kathleen | 255 comments We have another dues ex machina in Mary’s stupor. I was okay with the appearance of Charley, but not with this twist. I keep thinking that there is too much adrenalin in her to freeze, but she has no option now and too little experience to know what to do. How will the gods help?

I expected a Bible passage when you quoted what I thought to be a forgotten incident in the life of a different Ruth.


message 105: by Kathleen (last edited May 25, 2024 04:48AM) (new)

Kathleen | 255 comments Claudia wrote: "We will be onboard a Yellow Submarine until we resurface on Monday 27 May and read chapter 29!"

Oh, no! Now I have a new tune in my head which I might not get rid of for several hours, or until Monday!


message 106: by Claudia (last edited May 25, 2024 08:47AM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Kathleen wrote: "We have another dues ex machina in Mary’s stupor. I was okay with the appearance of Charley, but not with this twist. I keep thinking that there is too much adrenalin in her to freeze, but she has ..."

Ruth: I have accordingly edited my post!

As to Mary's stupor, I think it may happen. She has been travelling to Manchester (ok, 35 miles by railway), leaving her smoke-covered town for fresh sea air full of iode, running against time and after a few tribulations seeing Will. In spite of all uncertainties, there is still hope that he will do it in time, so that she may feel suddenly tired and in a state of stupor with perhaps a cognitive dissonance. (But the latter is just speculative)


message 107: by Kathleen (new)

Kathleen | 255 comments Thanks for the links, Jean. When I was in Liverpool for a few hours, we strolled along the waterside until we found the statue of those yellow submarine guys. Yah!

By looking at the Wikipedia photos, I found the name of the Anglican cathedral which I photographed that day.


message 108: by Franky (new)

Franky | 86 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "About Liverpool ... it's the 4th biggest city in England. (1. London, 2. Birmingham, 3. Manchester, 4. Liverpool) and the oldest and largest port. I was going to write a bit of info., (as we usuall..."

Thanks for the links and background about these cities. I was wondering how Liverpool sized up with some of the other cities in England. Interesting background and info.


message 109: by Claudia (last edited May 26, 2024 09:15PM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Chapter 29

Job Legh is actively involved in the forthcoming Assize trial.

It is 1.55pm on Monday afternoon and Job is visiting Mr Bridgenorth at his lodgings in Liverpool. He has left Mrs Wilson with a friend whom he often visits in Liverpool.

Job is not yet concerned about Mary and Will's delay at the lawyer's and is now discussing the matter with him.

Mr Bridgenorth is now more convinced than ever of Jem's innocence. He has seen him, but Jem was reticent, and the lawyer had "the impression" that he was not telling him something he knew. In the absence of further evidence, they must "rest the case on the alibi".

Meanwhile, a true bill against James Wilson is returned, making Jem "doubly anxious and sad".

Mary and Will have still not arrived, and Mr Bridgenorth has to go out.

Job goes to see Mrs Jones - he happened to have her address - and learns that Will has sailed. Her son Charley, who has been away, suddenly returns and tells Mr Legh how Mary has sailed down the river with boatmen to the John Cropper, which is moored outside.

None of this reassures Job, who returns to his lodgings after asking Mrs Jones to send Mary to this address at Back Garden Court, No 8.

“But Mary never came”


message 110: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments A true bill

Formerly in Britain, it now exists only in the United States. [Comments by lawyers are welcome!].

It is the endorsement made on a bill of indictment by a grand jury certifying it to be supported by sufficient evidence to warrant committing the accused to trial. The formal criminal charge is returned by the grand jury.


message 111: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Suspense

What a great cliffhanger at the end of this chapter and the preceding ones!

Mrs Gaskell's story has now changed from a social novel to a mystery thriller, with many ingredients of the genre.

- The chapters are much shorter than before, starting with chapter 26. They are accounts of facts and actions, with little space left for musings or moral judgements. Mrs Gaskell's voice does not interfere much. The narrative voice is mainly confined to a third-person account.

- The story unfolds in "real time" from the moment the murder is discovered - last Thursday just before 8pm. Before that, weeks, months and even years had passed without barely anyone noticing, beyond a few seasonal details (Christmas, fog, February frost, flowers...) It is now easy to mention, as I tried to do deliberately, when exactly something happens, on what day, at what approximate time. We, the readers, are in a race against time with Mary and Job.

- Some disturbing details are given: Mary overhears a professional conversation on the train about Jem's trial, "a clear case".

- Some combinations of events and uncertainties are mentioned: Will has sailed away, the ship is unreachable, and yet the boatsmen manage to reach it - thanks to a break in the headwind - and tell Will that Mary needs him to save Jem's life. However, it is still unclear whether Will will be able to get to the court in time.

- Mary, on her boat-trip back to the piers, is in a stupor and has forgotten even where she was in the morning. Nor does she remember where she was to meet Job and Mrs Wilson. She blindly follows an unknown old rough sailor, but where to?

It is a truth universally acknowledged that docks are not the safest place for young girls in a harbour town. Anything might happen.


message 112: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Thanks all for your comments!

We will keep the suspense alive until chapter 30, on Tuesday 28 May!


message 113: by Connie (last edited May 26, 2024 09:34PM) (new)

Connie  G (connie_g) | 1045 comments Thank you for including all the times with your commentary, Claudia. It certainly is a race, giving so little time to prepare a defense or locate witnesses. It feels like Jem is just assumed guilty. I never expected this novel to be so suspenseful!

I hope the old sailor is trying to protect Mary, leading her away from the dangerous docks. She's so vulnerable in her present state.


message 114: by Franky (new)

Franky | 86 comments The building suspense is quite amazing. I love how we have this feeling where everything is going to converge at the same time.


message 115: by Kathleen (new)

Kathleen | 255 comments The short chapters definitely heighten the suspense.


message 116: by Sue (new)

Sue | 1204 comments And what is it that Jem is not telling the lawyer. I wonder if he might know or have seen something before he left Manchester with Will. Perhaps about his gun?


message 117: by Antoinette (new)

Antoinette | 103 comments I wondered the same, Sue. Is he protecting John Barton because of his love for Mary? How will Mary and Will get to court on time? Seems impossible.


message 118: by Sue (new)

Sue | 1204 comments Antoinette, I am wondering the same about John Barton. Have to say this pace is difficult for me as a reader. Was this published in weekly installments originally? Readers must have been fit to be tied.


message 119: by Kathleen (new)

Kathleen | 255 comments Sue wrote: "And what is it that Jem is not telling the lawyer. I wonder if he might know or have seen something before he left Manchester with Will. Perhaps about his gun?"

I assumed that Jem does not want to talk about the altercation he had with Henry. Or was that part of the indictment?


message 120: by Sue (new)

Sue | 1204 comments They may have already told Jem that they know about his prior fight since that was the primary evidence for his arrest, combined with the gun.


message 121: by Claudia (last edited May 27, 2024 10:11PM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Sue wrote: "Antoinette, I am wondering the same about John Barton. Have to say this pace is difficult for me as a reader. Was this published in weekly installments originally? Readers must have been fit to be ..."

Sue, Mary Barton was originally published in two volumes in 1848 at Chapman's, London as I mentioned in my introductory posts.

Indeed Franky it all seems to be interestingly converging!

Thank you all for your comments (and conjectures)!


message 122: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Chapter 30

Job is coming back to his lodgings and finds Mrs Wilson anxious. He is “studying for some kind-hearted lie which might soothe her for a time” but tells her the truth. Mrs Wilson is despaired and is persuaded that “Jem will be hung, and will go to his father and the little lads, where the Lord God wipes away all tears [Rev 21:4], and where the Lord Jesus speaks kindly to the little ones [Luke 18:16], who look about for the mothers they left upon earth”.[Matt 2:18].

It is Monday evening, it is ”pitch-dark”.

Job goes to Mr Bridgenorth again, but in absence of an alibi provided by Will, the case ”must rest on the uncertainty of circumstantial evidence, and the goodness of the prisoner's previous character. A very vague and weak defence. »

Job goes to Mrs Jones: Charley is out again, but comes back soon and informs Job that Mary has not been ”heard of at any of the piers.”
Still, she has to be in court on Tuesday morning at 9 am.

When Job returns to his lodgings, he cannot avoid talking to Mrs Wilson who has been waiting for him all the time. This time, he tells her ”one little lie: Will ”is found, and safe, and ready for tomorrow.” just to soothe her worries. When Jane insists on Mary's whereabouts, Job cannot help but lie again, although he feels bad about it and cannot sleep all night.


message 123: by Claudia (last edited May 28, 2024 08:20AM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments A few Bible verses (from KJV)

Jane Wilson, tortured by the thought of Jem's impending trial and sentence, finds hope in a comforting Bible verse, not unknown to those who remember Mr Higgins' daughter in North and South. This shows how much people, even the less educated among them, in those times had a solid Scripture literacy. This was mainly more instinctive than bookish. However the only book some people possessed was a Bible. They heard preachings and kept verses in mind, as spiritual food supplies for the winters of their lives. Their strong faith helped them go through thick and thin. In fact there are three underlying Bible verses in her words.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4

She is also weeping for her innocent deceased children and seeing Jem as the boy he used to be not so long ago. Jane is firmly believing him as innocent as a child.

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" Luke 18:16

I also detected the following verse as a possible subtext:

"In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not." Matthew 2:18

In this verse, Matthew quotes Jeremiah 31:15. He sees the slaughtering of the innocents in Bethlehem as fulfilling Jeremiah's prophecy.

It would bring us too far off topic, but we know that, should be Jem sentenced to death, Jane Wilson would have lost all of her (innocent) children, and "would not be comforted".

This allusion to this verse may also be, for Mrs Gaskell a way of telling us how cruel the death of a child is, and how she herself "would not be comforted" when little William died.


message 124: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments A moral tale

Elizabeth Gaskell is, as said her biographers, very committed to the truth, and so is Job Legh when he says to Mary in chapter 23 ”The truth is best for all times”.

However, we see Job's discomfort when he lies and feels forced to do so again. Yet there is no other way if he is to prevent Jane's precarious health from deteriorating fatally. This lie may be a matter of life and death.

At this point, in this novel but also in others, Mrs Gaskell challenged her contemporaries to question their preconceived notions of morality.


message 125: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments We will read chapter 31 on Thursday 30 May!

Until then, the suspense goes on!


message 126: by Lori (new)

Lori  Keeton | 1118 comments We are still hanging on to hope and praying for Mary and Will to show up in the morning. I wonder what happened to Mary this evening and where she has been.

The topic of whether to deceive for good reasons is a tough one. Any Christ-follower will say a lie/deception no matter how big or small is still a sin. Seeing Job’s reluctance in the act of telling it was excellent writing. This is exactly the type of thing I’d expect one’s inner voice to be telling them in the process.
Claudia, you mentioned that we’re not hearing Mrs. Gaskell’s voice in the section since the murder and search for Will. I think anytime we get a character like Mrs Wilson recollecting scripture is a sign of our author coming through. She is very definitely making a claim toward morality here. I’d say this was a hard choice to write this deception scene given her own morals.
Excellent chapter but we need to know how this is going to turn out!!


message 127: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Indeed, Lori. I fully agree with you on this.
Through Job's hesitations on this tough matter, and through Jane's scriptural references, we feel Mrs Gaskell's presence and own questioning, even if she is not "officially" intervening.


message 128: by Sue (new)

Sue | 1204 comments Lori, I agree with your impatience. I am wondering what Gaskell has in store for us in the hours leading up to court!


message 129: by Claudia (last edited May 30, 2024 03:16AM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Chapter 31

Monday evening.

Mary is staying at the old boatman’s, ”under a respectable roof, among kind, though rough people”.

Mary has fallen into a stupor and is now ”glad that someone was deciding things for her.” She is overwhelmed by this situation and faints, once she is in Mr and Mrs Sturgis’ small cottage-like house in the middle of the port town. Mrs Sturgis is a chatty elderly woman, always active, decided to accommodate Mary even if she is ”a bad one”.

She offers her to sleep in her sons’ now empty room, furnished and decorated with maritime objects, drawing of vessels, etc. Both sons are at sea, one in China and the other one in the Baltic.
The old sailor, Ben, is watching a weathercock but he is anxious that ”the winds are against them", hindering the pilot-boat progressing homewards.

Mary does not sleep all night and keeps watching the weathercock through the window, waiting for the wind to change directions.

It is already Tuesday morning.


message 130: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Mrs Gaskell introduces this couple to add a human and benevolent element in Mary's hardships. Ben Sturgis and his wife provide her with much needed comfort and support, no matter who she is.

Ben is a Good Samaritan in disguise at a time when Mary feels terribly lonely and lost. Even if their sailor sons are far from home, some objects in the room Mary is accommodated in are meaningful traces of their itinerant lives and dreams. This little room embodies what has been the modest, yet rough life of sailors for generations of Sturgis.

The little cottage-like old house, so very different from all other houses around looks like a sweet family home in an ever uncertain context (the weathercock) and a rapidly changing world - symbolised by the more recent buildings around.


I am eagerly waiting for your comments on this short chapter, before we reach chapter 32 on 31 May.


message 131: by Petra (new)

Petra | 2178 comments Poor Mary! She's exhausted, both physically and mentally. I wish she'd get a little sleep and eat something. It would help her get her bearings again.

It's great that she's landed with such a warm family, who will keep her safe until she rallies her strength again.

It seems that the elements are against poor Jem and making it difficult for Will to make it back to shore on time. I'm anxious to know how things will progress.


message 132: by Lori (last edited May 30, 2024 11:09AM) (new)

Lori  Keeton | 1118 comments This chapter gave me Dickens vibes because he would use a character like Ben and his wife to move the plot along and to show a different side to the so-called rough navy sailor man. I loved his wife for her gentleness but we know Ben is deep down. I wouldn’t be surprised if he winds up helping Mary more as the story unfolds.

And I noticed another Biblical reference Proverbs 5:18 “May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.” There are other verses to this same passage but I chose Solomon’s proverb.
Referencing Ben and his wife aren’t as young as they used to be but they are loving and pleased to still be together. I think Mrs. Gaskell is espousing the sanctity of marriage.


message 133: by Sue (new)

Sue | 1204 comments I’m looking forward to the next chapter. Mary is so emotionally and physically exhausted she really can’t take much more. Thankfully she’s in good hands, with people who won’t challenge her but will let her be for the moment. But she has so little to look forward to…just that one possible witness who may, or may not, be able to reach court in time. Life is totally arbitrary.


message 134: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Great comments!
And great Biblical verse indeed, Lori!

Thank you everyone, let's move on through a long chapter.


message 135: by Claudia (last edited May 31, 2024 12:37AM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Chapter 32

None of those involved in the Assize trial have slept. Mr Carson is described as restless, devastated by the loss of his only son, thirsty for justice - but the word vengeance is on his mind. He knows the investigation has been rushed, but the authorities believe Jem is guilty, and Mr Carson will not be able to bury his dead son until the guilty man is hanged.

At nine o'clock on Tuesday morning, everyone, including young Charley Jones, gathers for the trial. Job arrived at the courthouse early. He is handed a letter addressed to him from Jem. Jem thanks Job for all his help. He also tells Job that he is innocent and asks him to look after Jane Wilson and Alice. They will have enough money as he has provided for them, but both women will need care and attention. Jem also asks Job to keep the secret of his innocence from Mary for the time being, even though Jem believes Mary hates him for it. However, Jem asks Job not to tell Mary the truth until Job is about to die. Jem cannot bear to see Mary die believing that he has committed this crime.

In the witness room, Job finds Mary looking hopeless and Mrs Wilson sobbing after hearing the news that Will has not arrived.

As the trial begins, Jem Wilson pleads not guilty. As witnesses for the prosecution, the policemen give evidence of Jem's quarrel with Harry Carson and the fact that Jem's gun has been identified as the murder weapon.

When Mrs Wilson is on the stand, the prosecutor asks her to confirm that the gun belongs to Jem. She asks Jem what she should do. He emotionally tells his mother to tell the truth. Jane confirms that the gun is Jem's and continues to proclaim her son's innocence and goodness.

Next, Mary is called to the stand. She looks deadly pale and after a few dazed minutes confesses that she liked the attention of Harry because she had dreams of becoming a wealthy lady, but that she discovered her love for Jem after she refused his proposal of marriage. She explains that her mother died before she had time to learn much about life and love from her.

The prosecutor suggests that Mary's admission of love strengthens the case against Jem. Mary replies that she stopped speaking to Harry after their last meeting, and in any case never mentioned Jem's name to young Mr Carson. She begs to be excused from the stand and the judge lets her go.

Mrs Sturgis takes charge of Mary, who goes mad with fear that she will have to reveal her father's guilt to save Jem's life. She becomes delirious and even sees her father in the courtroom crowd, trying to speak up. Jem's defence makes little effort to cross-examine her, as if the lawyer has given up hope of ever clearing his client.

A short time later, Mary begins to scream that Jem is saved and that she is mad, before convulsions shake her body and she is carried from the court.

Will has arrived and this is the reason for Mary's sudden outburst. The sailor forces his way to the witness stand and testifies that his cousin did indeed accompany him to Liverpool on the night of the murder, specifying the exact place where they parted: Hollins Green, East of Warrington, one third of the way to Liverpool.

The prosecutor tries to get Will to confess that he is a casual sailor paid to provide this alibi, but O'Brien, the ship's pilot who accompanied Will Wilson to court, confirms Will's identity and integrity. Later, the jury returns a verdict that Jem is not guilty and acquitted.

Jem is in a state of shock and, while accepting congratulations from his friends, asks where she is. Job assumes that Jem means his mother and takes him to see Jane. Jem hugs his mother lovingly, but repeats his question as he looks for Mary Barton.


message 136: by Claudia (last edited May 31, 2024 01:13AM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Mary’s confession in the witness box was to me something unheard of when I first read Mary Barton. Will's appearance happened just in time. Mr O'Brien ascertaining Will's identity was the deus ex machina that helped deliver Jem from a death sentence. Even on re-reading I felt anxious.

There would be much more to comment about this terrible trial: Jem's letter to Job Legh, Jane Wilson, Mr Carson. In an Assize trial, everyone involved is durably affected, no matter if they are judges, solicitors, jurors, accused, defendants, attorneys, prosecutors, witnesses or just attending in the audience.

In a very moving and sincere statement, Mary is really telling the truth of her own story, "the truth better for all times". She is asked, I suppose that it is the same phrase in all courts of justice, by serious judges in black robes wearing wigs to tell the whole truth, nothing but the truth. As a witness she cannot escape from this demand and does not want to, because she is, in spite of all, a sincere person.

Nevertheless, she is harbouring a tough dilemma within herself, the secret knowledge of her father's guilt. I was reminded of Jeremiah 31:29 "[In those days they shall say no more,]The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge."

She is taking publicly the necessary step of admitting that she has been wrong when she flirted with Harry.

Her witness bearing is an example of direct communication - as a contrast to the failed communication that caused many issues in this book, including the strike, the wrath of the workers, and as a matter of consequence Harry's death and his family's sorrow.

Mary finally stands up for Jem publicly, and sets her action - and her life - in the right course again.

But the secret of her father's guilt weights so heavily upon her that she breaks down sick and delirious. Has she imagined that she saw her father, or was John Barton really there? It is so well done that I am not quite sure, even if I believe she imagined.

A delirious condition allows one to tell things they would not say otherwise. When taken out of the court in her state of confusion, Mary might unintentionally tell the terrible truth. But those around her, the Sturgis, who are skilfully introduced at a relatively late stage in the novel and are outsiders to the whole previous plot, may not quite understand her allusions. However we read in chapter 31 that Mrs Sturgis asked Mary if she knew who had killed the manufacturer's son. Ben Sturgis noticed that she kept silent and begged his wife to stop asking.

Lori pertinently wrote earlier that Mrs Gaskell was espousing the sanctity of marriage while featuring the Sturgis as an old couple, apparently rough but welcoming and ready to help, fond of their sons and worried about them, and symbiotic in their own way.

In this chapter our author is stressing out the sanctity of truth, and she is also showing us how very challenging it is to tell the whole truth, whatever it costs, or to keep silent. Is Mary's stupor, weakness and delirious state, perhaps fever, the cost of her silence?


message 137: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments I am sure that you all have much to tell on this pivotal chapter.

We will read chapter 33 on Sunday 2 June.

This offers you plenty of time, even for late-comers, silent readers and up-catchers!


message 138: by Sam (last edited May 31, 2024 12:06PM) (new)

Sam | 449 comments Wonderful chapter with much of interest. I hadn't been able to post but wanted to note psychological underpinnings that Gaskell was using in earler chapters following Jem's arrest, and one of the most striking is Mary's ignored guilt in her attempt to save both Jem and her father. Dostoevsky would take this much further later in Crime and Punishment, but Dostoevsky is heavy-handed. Gaskell is far more subtle letting the reader to fill in the pschological torture Mary must be suffering. Gaskell lets the physical manifestations loose in this chapter.

Also of interest to me was the way Gaskell used point of view, constantly shifting from one character to another, even icluding a consciousness of the crowd, as she covered the varous actions and reactions.


message 139: by Claudia (last edited May 31, 2024 01:31PM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Great points Sam! In my opinion Mary was tightly focused on Jem's innocence and need of an alibi also because she wanted to bury her father's guilt in the deepest layers of her mind.

Now Jem's innocence is admitted but John's guilt buried beneath the surface is emerging all the more powerfully in Mary's mind, as it was repressed and hidden.

Also of interest to me was the way Gaskell used point of view, constantly shifting from one character to another, even including a consciousness of the crowd, as she covered the various actions and reactions.: thanks to this narrative technique we feel as if we were in the courtroom as well.


message 140: by Petra (new)

Petra | 2178 comments What a great chapter!

Mary makes a public confession as part of her testimony and sets right the misconceptions of earlier. As Claudia says, she is making an open and honest statement, clear and to the point. No more miscommunication.

I was surprised that an unknown, unexpected, surprise witness was allowed to just walk into court and have his say. He's not on a witness list, no lawyer has previously talked with him and no one knew he was coming to court. Yet Will could have his say and his testimony was taken seriously and as part of the court proceeedings.
I'm not sure exactly how things work in today's courts, but doens't one have to be on an official witness list to have a say?

Thank goodness that Jem is free.
Now we've got to figure out what happened to John and what, if anything, he had to do with the murder.
Where's Esther? I sort of thought she might turn up at the trial. She's been gone for a long time now.


message 141: by Lori (new)

Lori  Keeton | 1118 comments I agree this was a fantastic chapter! I was surprised by Mary’s testimony and confession in a courtroom sense. The question she was asked was which man did you prefer? Seems an odd question for a trial to me but it allowed her to open up and tell everything. I’m not sure that a judge would allow her to go on and on like she did (I’m no expert) rather than just blankly answering the question. But I don’t care! It was such a wonderful scene. There was a lot of melodrama in this chapter.

Hooray for Mrs. Sturgis who took care of Mary. And for the truth being made the center of this entire chapter. We even got a sense that Mr. Carson was regretting his hastiness maybe he wasn’t certain about Jem’s guilt.

I am with Petra, wondering about John and where in the world is Esther!


message 142: by Sue (new)

Sue | 1204 comments I would wonder if Esther would have the wherewithal to be able to travel to Liverpool for the trial, both physically and monetarily.

John’s absence seems stranger. This has obviously been a major story so it would seem he should know about it. Would he place his labor beliefs before his family and friends?


message 143: by Connie (new)

Connie  G (connie_g) | 1045 comments Perhaps the lawyers had put Will on the witness list since they knew that the pilot boat would be bringing him back. It had a theatrical feel to it when he strides into court to save Jem, rather than following the usual order of the court. This has been an exciting scene in the courtroom!

Mary seems to be entering a delirious state at the end of the chapter. I wonder what she might blurt out about her father in her confusion. She has some good reasons to suspect her father, but we don't know if he is definitely the guilty person or if he was helping someone else from the union.


message 144: by Claudia (last edited Jun 01, 2024 09:01AM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Thank you everyone!

Lori noticed how Mary's statement sounds melodramatic, while Connie found a theatrical feel to the appearance of Will apparently unheralded, when we thought Jem was being condemned.

This was a Deus ex-machina effect - from a Latin phrase from Greek: a God out of the machine. From Wikipedia: "The term was coined from the conventions of ancient Greek theater, where actors who were playing gods were brought on stage using a machine. The machine could be either a crane (mechane) used to lower actors from above or a riser that brought them up through a trapdoor."

An Irish American dramaturg, Dion Boucicault, perhaps not an outstanding playwright, but obviously very good in his adaptations, wrote a drama play in 1866, on stage in New York and in London the same year, called The Long Strike. It is definitely inspired by Mary Barton and is available as additional materials in the Norton Critical Edition of this novel.

There is a thespian dimension in Mary Barton. Its moral issues have at times something of a Greek drama.

Indeed the investigations were rushed, the scene of crime was unguarded, Jem was presumed guilty from the beginning, John Barton vanished into thin (or rather thick) air, Mary destroyed evidence and her witness bearing may definitely sound a bit off topic at a court of justice, while Will turning up as a witness without being on the witness list (I am no expert either) looks a little unrealistic.

Still, a slight hint of melodrama does not bother, Mrs Gaskell's writing is excellent, readers are on track and we are not out of the woods.


message 145: by Kathleen (new)

Kathleen | 255 comments An alternate rumination:

Elizabeth Gaskell appears to be a competent woman, but in Mary Barton she portrays a very incompetent one. Mary is a silly and weak woman who is unable to pull herself together to defend Jem. She is careless with the address of his attorney and Job’s lodgings and she allows herself to be led off by a strange man to some unknown place. Mary cannot handle stress. She is not a heroine, but more a damsel in distress.


message 146: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Chapter 33

Mary has been taken care of by Ben and Mrs Sturgis. She lies delirious in the upstairs room, which evokes the world of the sea and boats, screaming for her father to save Jem. Jem understands that she must know that her father is the murderer. Jem has known all along because John borrowed his gun two days before the murder, but he did not want to denounce John Barton.

Jem spends the night watching over Mary until Job arrives in the morning. Jem expresses his fears to Job that Mary will die, or worse - never recover from this mental condition.

Job tells Jem that he must go home because he has been informed by Margaret that Alice does not have long to live. While Job stays in Liverpool to keep in touch with Mary's condition, Jem reluctantly returns home to his mother, who is jealous of his attention to Mary.

Alice dies the next day, surrounded by Will and Jem. Jem convinces his mother that Mary is to him what she was to George. Reflecting on those happy, loving times, Jane softens towards Mary and agrees that Jem should return to Liverpool, blessing him also "for Mary's sake". Jem goes to Margaret's to get some things for Mary.

On his way out, he sees the ghostly figure of John Barton walking in the court and entering his house. Conveniently unseen in the moonlight shadow on the steps where he readjusted the small bundle of things for Mary, Jem prefers not to approach John, as he would have to explain too many things that had happened in Liverpool, touching on sensitive subjects. Jem has many mixed feelings.


message 147: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Alice

She is an embodiment of innocence, kindness, generosity, and love. She embodies the three virtues as described in Paul’s Epistles in the New Testament: charity, faith, and hope. She is wept over by poor Will, who feel abandoned by a mother for the second time in his young life.

Jem gives a very beautiful, spontaneous eulogy when he speaks of Alice to Margaret as someone who is not in danger of being forgotten, for such beautiful souls are frequently and naturally remembered by those who remain.


message 148: by Claudia (last edited Jun 01, 2024 09:23PM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments The phantom of John Barton

We have not seen John Barton since chapter 17, when he went from home and the narrative voice said to us “Let us leave him.”

We notice that after a few days precisely described in terms of timing, we have lost all notion of time now. We (I) just suppose that it is now Sunday evening at the close of the chapter.

Nor do we know where exactly John Barton has been all the time.

His shadow – was this he or Mary’s vision? – was seen, or imagined to be in the courtroom in chapter 32 amid general confusion.

He had been on Mary's mind since she had understood that he was Harry Carson's murderer. She had been busy trying to get an alibi for Jem. Now that she has been freed from the fear and pain of a possible death sentence for Jem, dark thoughts are invading her mind and causing her to fall into delirium.

In the midst of all this action and the need to think strategically to exonerate Jem, everyone had almost forgotten John's existence. In this chapter, he appears not only in Mary's delirious ravings, but also in the more level-headed thoughts and words of Job, in Margaret's conversation with Jem, and obsessively in Jem's thoughts.

We get the impression that John, like Esther, hovers above the characters and places, in increasingly concentric circles, until he appears in person, like a ghost, visibly consumed by his conscience, like a shadow of himself in the darkness. The whole descriptive vocabulary enhances his image as a phantom, with an ominous, almost prophetic tone.

This is no doubt why a biblical allusion appears in the text, which reinforces this oppressive feeling:  "had he stolen like a thief by dead of night into his own dwelling?"

There are several biblical verses on the theme of the thief coming by dead of night, but I selected this one in Matthew 24:43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into."


message 149: by Claudia (last edited Jun 02, 2024 02:13AM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments The tense atmosphere of the chapters after Harry Carson was found dead and the trial has eased a little. The chapters, from chapter 32 onwards, are longer. We are now loosing track of the exact timing.

This chapter featured among others two very different protagonists: Alice, who has now left this world, and John, now but the shadow of himself. They had a different response to the trial of their lives.

Don't hesitate to add to my comments until 3 June when we will read chapter 34.


message 150: by Lori (new)

Lori  Keeton | 1118 comments This is a very tense chapter indeed. Mary doesn’t seem to be coming to life again because of her thoughts of her father’s guilt that she believes. It sounds like Jem believes John to be the murderer as well because he knew the gun was borrowed. But why would he lend it?

Alice is with her Heavenly Father now and her mother who went before her. We can be joyful in that and not mourn her death as we have mourned so many in this novel. I hope we won’t have any more death in these last chapters!

Poor John. I keep hoping that there will be a different resolution to the murder and that there is something yet we don’t know that will exonerate him. Yet, someone killed Harry and justice must be served. Mr. Carson will want to know who the murderer was as he was bent on revenge rather than truth.

Jem is such an upstanding guy and I loved his speech about Aunt Alice to Margaret and how he used her ability to remember her in her mind even though she cannot see. I’m glad he has fully accepted Mary and wants to marry her and at the same time seeks her health to be returned. I’m also glad his mother is no longer jealous of her. But it’s so sad to see Mary breakdown like this when she should be celebrating her triumph. She succeeded and accomplished what she aimed for and now she is suffering like her entire life before this. Mary presented the truth on the stand and I do hope she is able to be rewarded with a good life with her sweetheart.

And the Sturgis’ are the most hospitable people. It probably comes from their working class status and their desire to help each other in their community.


back to top