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Mary Barton by Elizabeth Gaskell - Group Read (hosted by Claudia) 1st thread
Claudia, thank you for your interesting comments and the information about the Luddites and Chartism.John Barton was very brave to go to London to complain about labor practices. It was not unusual for employers to retaliate and refuse to hire labor organizers. They would be blacklisted by all the factory owners.
While Mary Barton and Mr Carson's son have been flirting, their fathers are now on opposite ends of the employer/laborer spectrum. As others have pointed out, Mr Carson would not have allowed his son to marry someone of a lower social class anyway. But it makes it even worse that Mary is the daughter of a Chartist.
Connie wrote: "Claudia, thank you for your interesting comments and the information about the Luddites and Chartism.John Barton was very brave to go to London to complain about labor practices. It was not unusu..."
True, Connie! And, moreover, the daughter of a Chartist leader and speaker, who is considered the utmost agitator in a company!
Claudia, thank you for the background information. It makes me realize that the politics of the workforce situation was much larger than I realized from this novel. It was a much larger movement than I picked up on. That makes Mary's chances of marrying Mr. Carson's son even more remote than ever. There's no way that Mr. Carson would allow his son to marry Mary. He'll send him off to the continent for a year or two to help him forget her. (isn't that what was usually done in these situations?)
I'm so sorry to hear of George's passing. That's an awful blow for us and the family. As mentioned by Claudia, John Barton has lost a good friend and sounding board. George's passing really saddened me.
Sally is such a troublemaker. I get that she needs the money but she's not helping her co-worker, Mary, at all. She must know that this situation can only lead to trouble for Mary.
I'm happy for Margaret, in a way. Sad about her blindness but happy that she told her grandfather and that she has the opportunity for another career choice; one that would suit her better and may, perhaps, offer steadier work over the coming years.
Claudia, thanks for the great summaries.
At times this book seems more like a lecture about the worker and poverty problems than a novel. I’m okay with the characters lecturing each other, but not when the narrator does it. The book is much better when the storyline illustrates the problems. Since this is her first novel, I expect that Gaskell’s storytelling abilities improve in her later books.
I understand Kathleen's objections to lecturing but find I am more forgiving in this type of novel where education seems as much the intent as entertainment. Plus Gaskell is breaking up the preachy parts with some very entertaing writing. The Sally characterization was brilliant and I already despise her. If we get that with some moralizing I can bear with it. Moral fiction has been at the nadir of poplarity for quite awhile and the critical policing has kept even the good from gaining acceptance. I have become more tolerant as I have gotten older and don't mind this at all. But Kathleen if you are sensitive to it, you are entitled. I have been taught it is to be avoided as well.
Sam wrote: "I understand Kathleen's objections to lecturing but find I am more forgiving in this type of novel where education seems as much the intent as entertainment. Plus Gaskell is breaking up the preachy..."Actually, I'm not objecting so much as commenting. It takes more skill and experience than Gaskell has at this point to make the purpose of your work more subtle by putting it within the storyline. I agree that this book is entertaining, and I am becoming invested in the characters.
Mary Barton reminds me so much of some other books and I'm not sure of which. I need to put my mind to it. Thanks, Sam, for reminding me of the term "moral fiction."
I have now reached the end of chapter 5 and the intense mill fire and heroics by Jem. I also was holding my breath like Petra as I read the vivid descriptions of Jem bringing his father to safety. I actually thought of the second man and thought there was no way Jem could physically make it back again. I can imagine being completely spent of all physical strength after saving his father.I am noting the Biblical references as I go and noticed another one in reference to Jem and his love for Mary despite her other lovers. I took it that he knew of the others.
He did not dare to look to any end of all this; the present, so that he saw her, touched the hem of her garment, was enough. Surely, in time, such deep hope would beget love.
This tells me that he has faith just like the bleeding woman who touched Jesus robe in the crowd. (Matthew 9:20)
I feel so badly for him and Mary treats him so coldly.
Thank you for all your insightful comments!Kathleen: indeed some readers do not appreciate Mrs Gaskell's intervening and at times sounding a bit like a lecturer. However this is as you said her first novel. Somehow, while reading on a slow pace, I found her interferences really helpful and interesting. She is telling us a story, and at times she stops telling the story and communicates with us in such musings. She also wants to draw our attention on crucial issues.
It is also known that she quoted (without telling it explicitly) two written reports by a Unitarian mission in the slums.
Petra and Sam: Yes, Sally is very well characterised and a real trouble-maker!
Lori Good biblical catch!
Chapter 9The next evening, in a “warm, pattering, incessant rain”, John Barton returns home, drenched and depressed because Parliament refused to listen to the delegation. He sits for a while in his wet clothes, as if oblivious to the fact, while Mary tries to make him comfortable with something dry and waits for him to speak, instead of urging him to tell of his journey to and from London. She notices the sharp contrast between Miss Simmond's world of colour, beauty and frivolous topics and her father's crucial concerns.
After some hesitation, Mary gives him the news of George Wilson's death, which deepens John's gloom. Mary fetches Job and Margaret to come and talk to John. Margaret has been practising a piece by Handel from Isaiah 40:1, a well-known imploring and comforting verse, "Comfort, comfort my people". Perhaps the lasting effect of the verse Margaret had sung before, and the benevolent presence of Job Legh partly eased Mr Barton's pain and he was able to talk more.
He gives an anecdotal but powerful account of his journey. His account includes some details that also illustrate the contrast between the working class of Manchester and life in the more fashionable districts of London: a full breakfast, more like a dinner, had been served to John and his comrades in an inn, but they could not really eat much of it because it was too unusual and they thought of "them at home as had nought to eat". John tells how they marched in a long line through the beautiful areas of London, how he saw the "grand palaces" including Buckingham Palace and perhaps even the Queen, how they were not allowed to cross the road because the carriages had priority, how a policeman laughed at them, at their appearance, their accent and the purpose of their initiative, how they were indifferent to "many a little one clemming at home in Lancashire". John was "like a child, [he] forgot [his] errand looking about [him]".
At Mr Legh's urging, he refuses to tell them what happened in Parliament. He is clearly discouraged by what appears to be a failure, added to the inner grief when he hears of Mr Wilson's sudden death in Oxford Road.
Job now tells the Bartons his story of how he came to look after his orphaned granddaughter. We learn that Mr Legh was a widower with only one daughter, Margaret. He was very fond of her and was secretly sad when she married a neighbour, Frank Jennings, a decent young man from the neighbourhood, and moved with him to London where he found work. Job Legh was happy to know they were doing well and was saving money to visit them when Margaret hinted in a letter to him that she was pregnant. Sadly, Frank's father was informed by their landlady that Margaret and Frank were ill with a fever just before her expected due date. They travelled to London by coach, only to find that both had just died, but that a baby girl had been safely born. They buried their children in London and returned to Manchester via Birmingham, desperate because of their losses and because the baby was crying and hungry and money was running out. A lady in a cottage along the way fed the baby with a thin porridge and washed and dressed her in fresh clean clothes - which turned out to be her own dead baby’s things. Mr Jennings, who had more children and a larger family, was happy for Mr Legh to keep the baby girl, named Margaret.
By the time Job finishes the story, there is a long silence in the room. Mary has fallen asleep on her little stool with her head on her father’s lap. She awakens and Job recites a poem by Samuel Bamford, which John asks Mary to copy down. The next day, Mary writes the poem on what seems to be an old valentine that Jem once gave her.
Russian dolls and mirrorsThis chapter contains two stories.
An untold story by John Barton.
He did not want to say anything about their petition to Parliament. This illustrates his lost hopes, and those of all the workers he represented. The many delegates, "thin, pale, miserable-looking lads", carried the voice and the hopes of thousands of workers and their families on their shoulders. We now know that the first chart was not read in Parliament, that the House of Commons voted 235 to 46 against even discussing it. On the whole, John Barton's London story ended with a failure.
We understand that this experience left a lasting mark on him. "As long as I live, our refusal of that day will remain in my heart; and as long as I live, I will curse them for so cruelly refusing to hear us; but I'll speak of it no more".
Instead, we learn more anecdotical yet telling details from his story about London, its palaces, but also the "middling kind and holes of iniquity and filth", the full breakfasts too rich for them and too heartbreaking when they thought of their loved ones starving at home, the beautiful carriages, the coachmen in wigs and the policemen laughing at their enterprise and their words, while John asked a question that was right for him at that time and place: "Which business is more important in the sight of God?”
A story within the story with a story inside told by Job Legh.
From a factual point of view, we can understand why Margaret Jennings and her grandfather were so fond of each other. Mr Legh and Mr Jennings went through some very dramatic events when they came to London. The loss of their children was unbearable, but we see that Job Legh has a philosophy of life, a mixture of naivety and wisdom, a child-like and confident faith in God, which allows him to bear hardship perhaps better than other people. "I was reluctant to leave them there, for I thought they would feel so strange at first when they got up, being away from Manchester and all their old friends; but it couldn't be helped. Well, God watches over their grave there as well as here." Getting home to Manchester with the "stout little babby" was a priority and not an easy task. Along the way they found the cottage lady, who was very quiet, but who not only fed the baby, but also washed her and dressed her in fresh little clothes. This is another tragedy hidden in tragedy, just as a Russian matryoshka doll contains another doll which contains another doll...
Is the narrative voice telling us the story of Job Legh, who accepts the frustrations of his hard fate with strength and has successfully - despite the sorrows and the losses of Margaret's parents, bringing up an infant granddaughter was a success - overcome them, in contrast to Mr Barton, who is indignant, bitter and now disheartened?
Has Mrs Gaskell chosen the name of Job fortuitously, or is this not an interesting reference to the famous biblical Job in the Old Testament, who bore his many trials with an endless patience?
Is Job Legh really meant to stay a secondary character, while his (and Margaret’s) presence now helped John Barton relax and talk about his journey and arouse feelings of interest in Job’s story and in the poem that, after all, both spoke of hope?
Kathleen Tillotson, in The Gentle Humanities of Earth, 1956 (this essay is printed in the Norton Critical Edition), stressed out that beyond the simple contrast, and although “Job Legh’s experience shares the common ground of poverty with John Barton’s grievances, its unembittered tone supplies an unconscious corrective, a suggestion of values beyond the frustrations of political action. And, because it is something past and safely lived through, it stands for hope.”
And a little more®… Two texts are surrounding this chapter and provide an additional sense to it.
The epigraph is by Mrs Caroline Norton. She published The Child of the Islands in 1845 and became friends with Mrs Gaskell in 1850. She is known to have later campaigned for the reform of divorce laws to give women more rights.
The extract from this poem, about the joy that a newborn child brings to the world, mirrors the contrasts described in Mr Barton's travel account, the persistent rain on Manchester that refreshes green paths and “waken up flowers” but stains dark alleys, as Mrs Gaskell beautifully describes in the opening lines of the chapter, but also the joy brought to this difficult world by Margaret, once a "stout little babby" born into a very sad background, now a benevolent and poised young adult.
Samuel Bamford's long poem sounds like a prayer in behalf of all those who are not heard. Only God can hear their pleas, as the unfortunate Chartist expedition to London showed.
Samuel Bamford was born in Middleton, Lancashire, in 1788, the son of a weaver who was also a part-time teacher and later master of the Salford workhouse. He knew poverty well, and his radical political beliefs led him to protest against the British government, leading groups and witnessing events such as the Peterloo Massacre in 1819, when a gathering of 60 000 working people asking publicly for reforms was charged by cavalry, killing eighteen and injuring hundreds. He was influenced by Homer's Illiad and Milton's poetry and wrote poetry himself. He served prison sentences on suspicion of treason for his political activities. He is indeed a working-class poet, much appreciated by workers and trade unionists - we see how much John Barton seemed to like this poem. Samuel Bamford too was a friend of Mrs Gaskell's.
His present poem, a beautiful poignant piece about the fate of the working-classes and the voiceless poor people, with the Leitmotiv "God help the poor", ends on a note of hope and unshaken confidence: "God will yet arise and help the poor!”
That was a sad, but beautiful, story that Job told about the loss of his daughter and how he cared for his infant granddaughter. Job is the only parental figure that Margaret has ever known. They are so devoted and loving toward each other.Thank you for the information about Samuel Bamford's poem, "God Help the Poor." The poor in Manchester had to depend on their belief in God and the goodness of other poor people who tried to help them because Parliament wouldn't even listen to them.
Chapter 5I am now well behind with this and have just read Chapter 5. Thinking of Biblical motifs, Jem speaks of touching the hem of Mary's garment, and that would be enough. There are several instances in the gospels where people thought that simply touching the hem of Jesus' garment would bring healing, e.g., St Matthew 14 v 36.
Thank you again, Claudia, for the excellent summaries and the additional information.I found Job’s story of bringing Margaret to Manchester as very humorous. Here are two bumbling men who have no idea on how to care for a new baby! We needed some humor to balance the bleakness of their existence.
I thoroughly enjoyed Job's story. It was so tender and heartbreaking, then the humourous part about taking care of the baby. The people certainly go through a lot of hardship and pain. They live precariously balanced on an edge that can tip downwards at any time, yet doesn't tip upwards.
Poor John Barton. He's quite disheartened by his experience in London. I hope he recovers his spirit.
I give kudos to Mary. She seems to have stuck to her resolve not to meet with Mr. Carson's son while her father was away. It may have helped that he came home early but it's still a win, in my eyes.
John and Job are such contrasting figures. They have only come together due to Mary’s intervention here it seems. It would be nice if they took to sharing time together in the future as it seems it would be especially good for John as an offset to his anger. It is good that Mary did identify this potential in having Job and Margaret visit.And I agree that it was good that Mary kept her promise to herself not to see Harry Carson while her father was away. I hope she starts rethinking that “relationship.”
Thank you all for your comments!Stephen: indeed, there are plenty of biblical quotes or just hints like this one, sometimes not signaled by footnotes, but they are a subtext in this novel indeed! There is much to say about the hem of the garment - but it takes one hour pastor preaching to do so! As Lori said above about this, it shows to which extent Jem's faith goes!
Yes, as you all mentioned, Job's touching story provided us with a valuable hint of humour (there are not many of them indeed).
I agree with Sue that John and Job were brought together by Mary's intervention. He and Margaret were the ones who could cheer up John after that failed mission to London.
Great point on Mary perhaps rethinking her relationship with young Mr Carson!
Chapter 10Dark clouds are gathering over the poor families of Manchester. The yoke of poverty weighs more heavily on John Barton, who has left his factory job for his fruitless journey to London. Now unable to find work, mainly because of his involvement with the Trades Union and his role as a Chartist speaker, Barton struggles to pay the rent, goes without food and pawned all his possessions. Mary continues to work at Miss Simmond's, who is also experiencing hard times and has stopped providing tea for her employees, postponing her own dinner. Mary often sees Harry, who is determined to make her his, ”one way or another”. Sally Leadbitter is on the lookout, having understood that Mary is experiencing material hardship, and urges Harry Carson to “to bring matters more to a point”.
John has been used to being hungry since early childhood, but his latent resentment and bitterness soon grows into a rage and one day he beats Mary for her insolence. He soon begs for forgiveness and promises never to hit her again, while she apologises for her own unfortunate words. Barton soon takes to chewing opium to numb his hunger and calm his nerves. He increasingly buys opium, which he is soon addicted to, instead of food. He spends a lot of time away from home at union meetings.
The once modest but warm and cosy home is now stripped bare of not only the little things that make life more cheerful - the tea-tray, some of the crockery mentioned in Chapter 2. Even blankets have been pawned or sold. There is no fire in the fireplace - it is summer -, so the house looks almost desolate. The windows are left uncurtained in the evenings, so that Mary sees strange figures of unknown men peering in or reaching into the room. When she is not yet asleep in her bedroom, she hears men's voices whispering downstairs, most probably trade-unionist meetings.
One evening, Barton urges Mary to visit Jane Wilson. Mary does so, trying to avoid Jem's presence. She is still uneasy about him, although there is “a secret spring of joy deep down in her heart at hearing Jem so spoken of” by his mother. Jane Wilson scolds Mary for her negligence in not visiting her. Meanwhile, Alice - now increasingly deaf - brings the news that Jem has been made a foreman, even though his factory has laid off some workers. Jane becomes angry when Mary seems to snub Jem as a possible husband, suggesting that Mary is not good enough for Jem. Changing the subject, Mary tells Alice that she is sad to find her so deaf and leaves, wondering if Jem really cares for Molly Gibson, a girl Jane claims Jem will marry. (Those who are familiar with Wives and Daughters know a Molly Gibson.)
A few weeks later, a woman, apparently a prostitute, tries to speak to John as he walks home after a union meeting. He tries to avoid her until he realises that this woman is the long-lost Esther. He flies at her in a rage, accusing her of having killed her sister by her disappearance. Esther falls to the ground, visibly weak and faint. A policeman arrives and arrests her for what he thinks is drunkenness.
Esther spends the next month in the New Bailey prison, worried that her warning to the younger Mary will come too late.
A changing worldThis (rich) chapter takes Mary and John Barton and all of us into a world of quicksand.
Through a concurrence of events and a conjugation of causes, everything we read particularly in the opening chapters, chapters 1 and 2, has been shattered to pieces.
. The death of Mrs Mary Barton and her unborn child in premature childbirth after the sudden and mysterious disappearance of her sister Esther has left John and Mary bereft. "Who loved her?" the narrator asks of young Mary's loneliness.
. Jane Wilson, a fragile but courageous woman, tries to come to terms with her fate. Her twins have died, her husband has died. Only George was able to soothe and comfort Jane whenever she became anxious. Now her sadness has turned to bitterness, if not a palpable touch of aggressiveness when Mary visits. Alice, who now lives in her house and sees the hand of God in all things, feels that she has been "sent" to be a punching bag for Jane's grief and anger. Eloquently, the window plants are not what they once were, beautiful and thriving, well-tended by George. Are these innocent plants a metaphor for the fragile, now deceased twins, and the family’s lost happiness?
. Alice has long since moved to Ancoats. Mary misses her and the time she was in her cellar. It was easy to go to Alice, to tell her about her daily life and to be encouraged by her kind words. Now Alice is deaf, which is also a symbol (and the reality) of her now abolished former listening skills, as this newly occurring deafness now prevents any fluid communication with her.
. Margaret - whom we eventually met and is a positive character - is out and about in a wider world, as she is now hired to sing out of town.
. The Bartons' material situation is worsening. John is unable to find work because of his political and trade union activities. The appearance of their home has also changed dramatically. Ornaments and useful things have gradually been pawned off, stripping away their familiar universe and leaving them cold in the middle of summer.
Is this not also a metaphor for the warm feelings, the communication between father and daughter that is now fragile, threatened by material contingencies and frustrations? We are repeatedly and skilfully reminded of silence and bitter words.
. More preoccupating, we see that John’s personality is shifting towards addiction to opium and giving in to violence. He has struck Mary, and is now violently pushing Esther against a street-lamp. He is not the same man he used to be at the beginning of the novel. Still the narrative voice hinted in the opening chapter that he was “resolute to good or evil” (Chapter 1). John Barton is still blaming his sister-in-law for the death of his wife.
And yet:
Esther is back!
Apparently involved in prostitution, given her clothes and make-up, perhaps addict to alcohol too, she tries to tell John Barton something. He refuses to listen to her because she looks like a streetwalker, as he himself once prophesied. However, Esther seems to know something about Mary and she seems to be afraid that something specific will happen while she is condemned for a month in prison and has no way of warning John.
This shows that Esther, at least recently, has been true to her name, a hidden star hovering around Mary and John. She seems to have been spying on them and learning something that John does not know.
This may be a significant turning point in the novel!
CommunicationWe see that it is all about communication here!
. The most eloquent example of impossible communication is shown when John categorically refuses to listen to Esther, who has something to say to him "for Mary's sake» but he misunderstands which Mary she is talking about. Now locked up in prison for a month, she is prevented to say more to him.
. John Barton is mostly silent and irritable with Mary. He is totally ignorant about her mysterious lover Harry Carson. Given his increasing irritability over his lack of food, his addiction to opium, and all material matters, given his bad feelings towards the rich and the masters, Mary would find it difficult to disclose this relationship to her father – provided she wanted to. Nor does he say a word to her about these mysterious and apparently conspiratorial meetings on the street level of their house when she is upstairs in her bedroom.
. Mary has never told her father nor Margaret about her flirt with Harry Carson. She is talking only with Sally Leadbitter about this. But is she the right person to communicate with?
. Mary herself is uneasy about Jem Wilson and avoids any communication with him (and even about him).
. Alice is increasingly deaf, therefore unable to be a good listener as she used to be to Mary, Margaret Jennings and Jane Wilson and more generally for everyone who approached her.
. Sally Leadbitter communicates a great deal with Harry Carson and is paid by him to act as an intermediary. She acts as a matchmaker, but even much more as a procurer.
I will post on chapter 11 on Tuesday, 30 April!Until then, I am looking forward to your comments!
Wow....this chapter is dire! There's a downward spin for Mary and John. I'm particularly distressed about his opium addiction. This occurrence shows how easily a person can slip into the world of addiction. Claudia, you've summed everything up so well. There's so many nuances and tiny Life events occurring in this chapter.
The little poem at the start of this chapter set the tone. I knew this chapter would be dark. But rereading it afterwards, points a finger at Esther's return ("Let her not fall like me").
John is showing a costly amount of pride and compassion for larger families by not taking the monetary help offered by the Union to help him with rent and food. Had he accepted this help, it might have saved him the opium addiction and helped save their items from being pawned.
On the other hand, it shows how much he cares for his fellow workers. He'd rather the limited funds go to families with young and many children. He has a caring and sympathetic heart.
It's such a precarious balance that these people all live in. Scary stuff when one thinks about the everyday experiences such a situation puts one in.
Mary does feel for Jem, it seems. There's the "secret spring of joy" that she feels. He's a good man and is rising at his job in a time when others are sinking. Mary should look at that more closely and explore her feelings. I wonder why she's so reluctant to look at Jem more closely? She feels for him, I'm sure.
On the other hand, she likes Mr. Carson's son for his wealth and the comforts a life with him would offer her and her father. She's not that enamored with the man himself. She's being led down a false road of visions and dreams, not reality.
Oh poor Esther! I feel for her. Her relationship with her mystery man probably didn't last long. She may have been watching the Barton home for years now but afraid and ashamed to come forward. If only she had. Perhaps the family could have patched things up and Mary would have had female guidance and advice to rely on.
Now she's locked away and cannot help at all. Elizabeth Gaskell has ensured that she won't be around in the next month. I fear that Mary and John are about to take a fall.
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Jean, it is surprising that there are no illustrations for this work. I suppose that since this is Gaskell's first novel it wasn't seen as being important enough to warrant the cost of illustrators? Was this book popular at the time of publication ? Would it have warranted the cost to illustrate in terms of payback for the publishers?
Re Mary and JemThinking about it, I suspect that Esther used young Mary as a sounding board for her dreams and hopes with her lover. When Esther disappeared (the beginning of this novel), Mary assumed that Esther had fulfilled her dreams and set her mind (consciously or unconsciously) to the same dreams.
At that same time, young Mary was perhaps drawn towards Jem and already loved him in her young way but these dreams, set in place by Esther, meant that she had to push him out of her heart/thoughts. This is when we came into the story: Mary rejected Jem from the first time we met them.
There's a battle here between heart and mind. Mary's heart may want Jem (yet to be proven in the novel) but her mind is set on moving up, just like Aunt Esther.
It's a brave stance to take, in a way. The girls must have been raised to know that a rich man's son would not look below their station for a wife. Yet young girls dream and in rare cases it did happen. An example in this novel would be Mrs. Carson. She came from the same station as Mary and married up. These rare cases keep the Hope alive in younger generations, such as Mary's.
The poor work so hard for so little. It's not unrealistic that they should dream of better times. Yet, in their station, there are no better times. Moving up, however it happens, may have seemed the most possible way of achieving a better life.....impossible as it would seem.
It's a mobius (a twisting design of no beginning or end) that gives hope without resolution.
Thank you Petra for your interesting comments! Yes, Mary Barton enjoyed a success when it was first published in two volumes in 1848. This is how Mrs Gaskell became well known. There was a second edition in 1854, this means it was worth publishing again.Thank you Jean too! I confirm what you said about the 1964 dramatisation. I am surprised that there has not been an adaptation since then. Nor any adaptation of Sylvia's Lovers by the way.
There were illustrations indeed. You, Jean, already posted one. We can find them in the Norton Critical Edition. I searched for some by Ivor Symes in the Internet but couldn't find any of them. Technically speaking I cannot photograph mines without ruining my book, which would be a pity.
Petra: great point on the little poem aptly called The Outcast, and the closing paragraph of the same chapter when Esther is going to be imprisoned for a month.Mary and Jem: it may indeed be a battle between heart and mind.
Another possible battle between heart and mind....or compassion and pride....was John's aversion to taking money from the Union. This is money given to help the workers and he didn't accept it for his personal reasons. He felt that the money would be better given to families with small children, yet he was just as worthy of help as they were. That battle led to his downfall as he made the "wrong" choice by not accepting the money that would have kept him from the opium.
His choice was as destructive as Esther's choice.
Petra wrote: "Another possible battle between heart and mind....or compassion and pride....was John's aversion to taking money from the Union. This is money given to help the workers and he didn't accept it for ..."Indeed! We remember that Mrs Barton's funeral was paid by the club, as John was paying his weekly pennies, but back then he was feeling relatively better.
It seems that the many troubles and ordeals meanwhile, on top of it the failed petition at Parliament was the last blow to his balance. All this, plus the increased intake of opium, may cloud his judgement and shut him up in his pride.
Again so much to comment upon in the last two chapters and so hard to limit one's words in response. I have been reading everyone's comments but forgive me if i missed something or did not feel the point was expressed strongly and I repeat it. First, thanks to Claudia for the post on communication. I am responding to the text more of the top of my head giving this is my first read of the text, i do appreciate your comments based on a deeper analysis of the material. I am going to limit myself to commenting on what I thought was very bold of Gaskell. She introduces domestic violence and substance abuse into the novel with an obvious tie to the socioeconomic stresses affecting the family in her portrayal of John and Mary. I find this exceptionally bold of the author, risking our opinions of these characters to establish a cause/effect relationship that I feel would have been readily argued. I think it is my favorite part of the book so far and kudus to Gaskell for taking the risk, ( This may be extended to Esther's prostitution and John's response).
“How much might happen in that time!”What a great chapter ending. It is full of bad portents, making it hard to not jump right into the next chapter.
Sam, thanks for pointing out the importance of what I think I read as a norm when certainly it wasn’t. My 21st century brain forgot that Gaskell was combining these social ills and showing their ties to poverty and other problems. She has already mentioned several views on the place of women in society thus far in the novel.
Kathleen wrote: "What a great chapter ending. It is full of bad portents, making it hard to not jump right into the next chapter.."I agree. I want to keep reading. Can't wait until Tuesday.
Sam wrote: "I am going to limit myself to commenting on what I thought was very bold of Gaskell. She introduces domestic violence and substance abuse into the novel with an obvious tie to the socioeconomic stresses affecting the family in her portrayal of John and Mary...."Sam, this is a good observation. I hadn't put these actions into Gaskell's time when these things were more hidden and less talked about than today. It was a bold move of hers. Thank you for pointing this out.
Sam wrote: "Again so much to comment upon in the last two chapters and so hard to limit one's words in response. I have been reading everyone's comments but forgive me if i missed something or did not feel the..."Thank you, Sam, for pointing out something crucial. Tackling issues such as domestic violence and drug addiction was a bold step for Mrs Gaskell in her day. If you read her later novels, particularly Ruth and Sylvia's Lovers and indeed North and South, you will see again how she deals with issues up front. Yet she is compassionate towards her characters. I am amazed by the subtlety and pertinence of her analysis.
She shows very well how much someone can be tormented by wanting and starving. This chapter – as is the whole novel – is providing us with a practical experience of the effects of starvation and malnutrition, of absence of a minimum level of comfort at home, as described by Friedrich Engels in his essay.
Mary "saw hunger in his shrunk, fierce, animal look".
"They were all desperate members of Trades' Unions, ready for any thing; made ready by want."
Beyond mere hunger (which is still so unbearable), people like John Barton, and him in particular, are not seen, not heard, not listened to.
The failed mission to London illustrates this very well. He has something to say, but he is rejected, ridiculed (by the policemen in London) and returns home more bitter and frustrated than before.
Thank you all for this discussion! On domestic violence and addiction to alcohol and substances, but in a middle-class background, another bold step was taken by Anne Brontë when she published The Tenant of Wildfell Hall in 1848 under the pseudonym of Acton Bell. The book enjoyed an enormous success, Charlotte Brontë for several reasons did not want to have a new edition launched after Anne's death in 1849. It was published again in 1854.
Yes Kathleen, this was a great chapter ending! When I first read the book, I had to begin reading something else lest I read too fast. It has, at some points, the feel of a page-turner. Waiting for Esther to come out...
More seriously, we see that Esther's absence or presence is a great plot element!
Chapter 11John immediately regrets his treatment of Esther and searches for her night after night in vain.
He sees that Mary looks very much like her aunt and is worried that she is becoming morally like her. He decides that it is time for his daughter to marry and asks her about her relationship with Jem Wilson. Jem is apparently going to marry Molly Gibson and John scolds Mary for missing her chance with him. Meanwhile, Mary continues to focus on Harry Carson and builds more air castles.
Later that evening, Jem arrives in his finest suit to propose to Mary. He tenderly offers his heart and hand in marriage, but Mary remains silent at first, then tells him that she can never be his wife. Heartbroken, Jem tells Mary she has no one to blame but herself if he becomes a drunkard or a murderer.
After her final "no", he "rushed out of the house". Mary tries to stop him, but "it was too late. He left street after street behind him with his almost winged speed as he sought the fields where he could give way unobserved to all the deep despair he felt".
Mary is now sobbing violently as she realises that she loves Jem "above all people and things" and that this is a revelation.
At midnight she retires to her room and makes plans to tell Jem how she really feels. She is now determined to wait and try to make things right with Jem, to be modest and patient, and not to continue her relationship with Harry Carson.
At work the next day, Mary manages to avoid Sally Leadbitter and ignores Harry, who follows her in the busy streets, and rushes home. We learn that Mary has not kept her recent appointments with Harry Carson.
Sally pays an unexpected and unwanted visit to Mary's home and delivers the message that Harry insists on meeting her.
Threatened that Harry will call at the Bartons' house, Mary is forced by Sally to meet Harry in a nearby dark alley. She tells him that she no longer wants to see him. Harry, however, refuses to let her go - and offers to marry her if that is what it takes to continue their relationship. When Mary finds out that Harry never intended to marry her in the first place, she is very firm in her refusal. As Mary leaves, Harry, more determined than ever to make her his, tells Sally that he will not give up Mary without a fight, but he will not propose to her again.
Two proposalsJem Wilson’s proposal is a real heartfelt declaration of love. He is very honest about the material side of things. He is unaware of Mary's flirtatious relationship and imaginary plans with Harry Carson, but he is realistic. He will never earn much money, but his salary will allow them to move on, to look to the future with confidence, and to support his mother and Aunt Alice, who will be living with them anyway. This should not be a burden, for they both love Mary dearly. John Barton will also be happy with this marriage, as he gets on well with Jem. If Mary would accept Jem, it would be a happy ending like in a fairy tale. But Mary does not accept Jem, and this is not a fairytale.
Mary's rejection is devastating for Jem: his world is shattered, he may become a drunkard or a murderer in the future. His dream has become a nightmare, and he flees on the wings of the wind.
Harry Carson’s “proposal” sounds like a bait to catch Mary. His aim was to "make her his", not to win her heart. Nothing in his speech sounds true, honest or even realistic. He is only honest about one thing: he, the son of a manufacturer, never intended to marry a seamstress. He remembers in petto, not out loud, that his mother was a factory girl. We read this in Chapter 10, when Jane Wilson told Mary how all the girls wanted to marry George Wilson; Bessy Witter, the present Mrs Carson, was in love with him, but George chose Jane. He also hints that his father was not much above his mother socially, ”there was not so much difference as between him and Mary Barton”, so we can infer that Mr Carson was a foreman at the time, and that Harry has something of a nouveau riche mentality.
Unlike Jem, who is devastated, Harry is now more determined than ever to make Mary his own. His view of women is very misogynistic.
Mary’s choiceJem's proposal would put an end to ambiguities and allow Mary to return to a socially acceptable life, preventing her from making the same mistakes her Aunt Esther seems to have made - we only know the tip of what seems to be an iceberg.
Still, we can read Mary's remarkable turnaround - apparently too late - as evidence that she has matured.
Is she finally able to separate infatuation from real love, to give up her unrealistic dreams of being Harry Carson's wealthy wife, and to truly realise her love for Jem Wilson? Is this sudden change of course realistic?
Mary makes her decision too late and feels she has lost Jem forever. It is, once again in this story, an instance of failed communication.
It is suggested that the anguish of her separation from Jem is Mary's penance for her flirtatious past. Let's note that we don't know much about how far her flirting with Harry went, but we do see from Mary's reactions to Harry's possible visit to the Barton house that the neighbours would gossip and her father's reaction would be terrible.
She is also pained by Jem's accusation that if his life ends badly, it will be because of her refusal. By burdening Mary with his future possible sins, it seems to be suggested that Jem is playing Adam to Mary's Eve - echoing the biblical idea, still deep-rooted in those times, that women are to blame for the sins of men.
Well, another dense chapter!I am looking forward to your posts!
I was glad to see more of Sally here practicing her villainy and was pleased to see Gaskell gave Sally a match in that villainy with Harry. I know we are supposed to have some sympathy for Mary but the bad guys are drawn so well, I think they stole the chapter.
I must admit that I lost my sympathy for Mary after she so cruelly dismissed Jem. Would she have been so quick to do that if she had not just had words with her father on that very subject? I did admire how she stood up to Harry and Sally, but it’s easy to see that she can’t get rid of Harry that easily. This was a very intense chapter!
Well, that caught me by surprise! I didn't think Mary would turn Harry down if/when he asked her to marry him. I'm not sure what to think about the situation, to be honest. She's spent a year or longer "wooing" him so that she can live a better life, then throws it away at a moment's notice?! Sure, she's having an emotional, roller coaster evening and she's young but still.....
She was cruel to poor Jem. I hope he's strong enough to get on with his life.
I find her turn around towards Jem a bit quick. She turns him down, then loves him within a hour (or so)? It seemed a bit quick to me. She could still remedy the situation but won't. Such a shame, really.
Harry is now going to become a problem, in a mean and vindictive way, I think. Mary's life is about to become complicated. She's left herself in a vulnerable position. She's much more alone now than she was.
As Sam mentioned, the characters are very well written. Sally and Harry come across as self-absorbed.
In Sally's case, she's trying to keep her head above water by earning a few extra pounds for herself and her mother. This need makes her hard and less able to see beyond the money.
In Harry's case, he feels entitled to get whatever or whomever he wants.
Mary has drawn herself into a terrible corner, all of her own making. She obviously has been actively involved with Harry, not only responding to Sally’s active assists but working on her own plan. Harry admits to his own plan too while amending it to marriage, but only temporarily. Mary rejects everything because of her newly discovered/ rediscovered love for Jem. But she acts like an inconsistent robot for most of this chapter. Her idea of loving Jem is to wait until Jem returns to ask her again to marry him, even if this should take years. She doesn’t seem to have a realistic bone in her body. Is this supposed to be part of the lasting influence of Esther.
Harry and Sally certainly appear to be planning future “events “ with Mary whether she wants contact with them or not. Mary’s future looks unsettled at best.
Thank you all!Sam, I agree that Sally and Harry made our day in this chapter. At this point Sally has more substance than Mary who, Sue, is indeed behaving like a robot or at least a free (self-harming) electron, cruel towards Jem as Petra pointed out.
Sally is supposed to be a secondary character, but she turns out to be a nuisance to Mary, coming in unexpectedly and interfering in Mary's life. Mary is cautious in her dealings with Sally because she fears that Sally could easily destroy everything around her.
Sally also has a power over Harry, as she sells him her matchmaking services (or whatever this may be called).
Mary is a more conventional character, while Sally is more original in her own way. I don't think there is another female protagonist quite like her in Mrs Gaskell's novels - unless I have missed something, and I have not read Cranford yet.
Chapter 12Jem, meanwhile, is miserable and contemplates enlisting in the army, but he cannot abandon his mother and Aunt Alice, who rely on him. Harry continues to send Mary letters though Sally, but Mary keeps sending them back unopened. Mary waits for Jem to come back to her, but he never shows up.
Meanwhile, she must work all night to earn enough to support herself and her father – who does not seem to be in good health, as his opium addiction is deepening.
Margaret, who has been away on a concert circuit in Lancashire and Yorkshire with the music lecturer, comes over to see Mary. Margaret shares the news that she has incidentally met Jem in Halifax, West Yorkshire. He has invented a crank, which his master bought and patented.
Margaret discourages Mary from writing to Jem about her feelings for him - instructing her to be patient and speak to him as soon as they meet. Margaret kindly gives Mary some money, which she uses to buy much needed provisions and have, for the first time since a while, a proper meal with her father.
The next day, Mary follows Margaret’s advice to visit Jane Wilson. Alice, who has returned from the post office to ask if there might be a letter for her from her nephew and foster child Will – whose ship is said to have returned to Liverpool, is now nearly blind as well as deaf. Jane is proud of Jem’s invention, but Mary quickly changes the subject.
At the same moment, Will, now a grown young man, arrives unexpectedly at the house to everyone’s joy and to Alice’s extreme happiness. They have tea and before Mary departs, Alice tells her to wait patiently, for the Lord brings about solutions to problems in due time.
Will Wilson is returning for a few days – his ship is anchored in Liverpool. He provides as a merchant sailor on leave, a new perspective in the novel, both in time and space. We understand that has been far and away for a very long time, but he is to stay in Manchester for a short time only. He seems to be a friendly character, from the present description, but also from Alice’s account about him in a previous chapter, and even more from her happy reaction at his arrival as if he were the Prodigal Son.Margaret too has returned, be it only for a few days. Because of her sweet and generous nature and her angelic voice, Margaret represents the ideals of feminine virtue because she possesses inexhaustible instinctive goodness. She knows the way of giving some money to Mary without condescension – let’s remind Harry Carson’s five shillings extracted from his pocket “for the poor chap” when Mr Wilson was asking Mr Carson for an Infirmary order. She does not seem to be easing her conscience either in doing so. She also knows how to advise Mary in her difficult matter about Jem. By positioning Margaret as a confidante and guide for Mary, Mrs Gaskell implies that Mary should strive to be like Margaret.
Alice’s voice, her humility, her faith in God despite all hardships, but also the closing lines of the chapter when she manages to quote Bible verses of three references in one go, may be understood, in some passages, as Mrs Gaskell’s voice, the voice of a sincere believer who herself has gone through many trials but is full of hope.
A few lines on UnitariansUnitarianism was born in Poland around 1555 and in Transylvania (in today’s Romania).
It rejects mystical doctrines as the Trinity and professes Unity (one God). It also rejects the Divinity of Christ, who is believed to be the Son of God, but not God.
Unitarianism develops in Britain in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Unitarians believe the mind to be a blank slate at birth, hence arises the necessity of a good upbringing and a preoccupation with education.
In the 19th century, Unitarian women were as influential as men in social reforms: Florence Nightingale, Harriet Martineau, Barbara Bodichon, just to name a few among many others who were Unitarian acquaintances or friends of Mrs Gaskell’s.
“Why do we live in an unjust world if we are all equal in the eyes of God?” asked Elizabeth Gaskell, who also believed that “the witness to truth should be taken, if needs be, to the point of martyrdom”, notes Jenny Uglow in her biography of Elizabeth Gaskell Elizabeth Gaskell: A Habit of Stories. She simply had to tell the truth, which explains why she is addressing issues up front and headfirst, both in her correspondence and in her novels and stories.
There were many Unitarian structures in Manchester, as this denomination emphasized personal action, equality before hierarchy, justice before legal judgement, all based on a solid knowledge of Scripture.
Unitarians formed a critical group within the middle-class elite in Manchester. Due to their commitment, which extended far beyond their numerical representation, they were very influential in shaping the city’s social and cultural landscape.
They were prominent in multiple reform movements, including children welfare, schools for the poor, abolitionism.
Rev. William Gaskell was assistant minister from 1828 to 1854 and then senior minister at Cross Street Chapel until his death in 1884. He was also a charity worker, supported housing plans and sanitary measures, and founded the non-denominational Manchester Domestic Home Mission. He was also a great lecturer and teacher and an outstanding preacher. He was said to be retiring in his study and learned by heart the preachings he had written, to be able to speak directly to the congregation in a more natural and effective way.
He had a fascination with language and was an expert in Lancashire dialects and at least two of the epigraphs in Mary Barton are his poems. He was also knowledgeable in Latin, ancient Greek, and was said to have been fluent in German.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
The Grapes of Wrath (other topics)Mary Barton (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
Oliver Twist (other topics)
Dombey and Son (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
William Shakespeare (other topics)Charles M. Relyea (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Elizabeth Gaskell (other topics)
George Eliot (other topics)
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When George passed away, John Barton lost a decent and steady friend who had helped him put things into perspective.
Chapter 9 is coming up on Saturday 27 April!
Up to you now!