Yellowface by R F Kuang - BOTM Mar-Apr 2024

[Savita]

Ahtims wrote: "he he.. I will put the real spoilers when I am on laptop."

Okay 👍 😀

[Tarinee]

will be starting chapter-9 tonight.

Am I in minority here for buying into the arguments of June Hayward ? :p

I know she has stolen the manuscript to begin with but then I find "We owe nothing to the dead " a solid argument to make home her POV... Awful .. distasteful .. but then isn't it that most of the saints in this world are due to lack of opportunity rather than intention ?

Of course all this with the assumption that June has put down a honest narration .

So if the narration is assumed to be honest .. can the end(so far) justify the means ?

[Savita]

Tarinee wrote: "will be starting chapter-9 tonight.

Am I in minority here for buying into the arguments of June Hayward ? :p

I know she has stolen the manuscript to begin with but then I find "We owe nothing to ..."

I don't think I agree with the statement, We owe nothing to the dead . In Hinduism we do believe that if a person has suffered grave injustice during life , the wronged soul continues to be tethered to the earth , seeking justice . It is only when the wrong(s) has / have been righted that such a soul gets mukhti . Is this ( statement ) part of June's defense justification ? ( I am only on chapter 2 ) . I am not impressed if so .

[Savita]

I have reached chapter 5 . This book has stirred up a maelstrom of contradictory emotions in me . Very nice writing style... keeps the reader riveted . Will make a few comments tomorrow .

[Savita]

I have read all the justifications presented so far by June ( I have reached chapter 5 ) . Hmm .... mostly I am feeling very exasperated and annoyed by June . She should have done what Ahtims has suggested: mentioned Athena as the originator and herself as the one who finished it . That would've been a fair and decent thing to do .
It's true that she does ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ take the suggestions of the editor and makes the script more palatable . So some credit goes to her . (hide spoiler)] ☆☆ But on the whole I am finding it difficult to condone her action . Clever selection of words to justify are not so impressive after all 🤔 .
And , in chapter 4 , I came across the words mentioned in Tarinee 's msg 52 . No , I don't at all agree . Even if the dead person happened to be a thief , how does it justify your own sinful actions ? Each will be judged by his / her own deeds . If my neighbor commits a sin , does that justify my committing sinful deeds ! It's absolutely not making any sense or logic to me 😒 . And , till now it is not mentioned how and when Athena ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ wronged June during the former's lifetime . (hide spoiler)]
I did like what June says about books in general : Reading should be an enjoyable experience, not a chore . . And this book is thoroughly enjoyable and thought-provoking . I wonder whether conscience or retribution catches up eventually with June . It will be reassuring if that happens 🤔 .I very much believe that, The wheels of Divine Justice grind slowly but surely. . Heaven gives us plenty of time for true repentance , but , it looks like Heaven is not good to a fault . After a reasonable time period retribution does catch up, in this lifetime or the next . And Divine retribution is nothing we should ignore . It can be so unbearably severe . Just look around the human community and the examples are so obvious and daunting . Only fools rush on where angels would fear to tread !!

[Ahtims]

@Savita, agree

(view spoiler)[

June does suffer for it, but in a different way.

I think she did what she did without forethought and then it was too late to go back.

Then she started justifying herself.

maybe its her guilt that prevented her from authoring anything fresh of her own.
She remained a voice of others forever.

(hide spoiler)]

[Savita]

Ahtims wrote: "@Savita, agree



June does suffer for it, but in a different way.

I think she did what she did without forethought and then it was too late to go back.

Then she started justifying herself.

mayb..."

I see that you have switched to your laptop and are using spoiler tags , Ahtims. That is nice .
Regarding the spoiler remark ... hmm ... ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ so her conscience does catch up . Fair enough ! And does suffer the consequences of her misdeed . Well , I think that's how it should be . 🤔 (hide spoiler)] ☆☆
Loving and enjoying the book ... let me push on 🤩

[Tarinee]

Savita Mam I get your point and completely agree with them from my own stand on ethics/morality of things.

I have a feeling which is substantiated, as I read more into the book, that the author intentionally (by character and situation building @June) has made things grey and has created enough situation and incidents to not distinguish things as clear black and white and this has made things more interesting for the reader. There is enough material to pick any side of the narration.

I was thinking that what if we have this ..THIS single life ..one shot at living this life to the fullest.. and there is a situation like June where you can altogether elevate the standard and scope of life , what will you do ?

Being honest and giving credit to Athena will make just another addition to her already successful work list while June's life will remain avg.

And more so in this world where being talented is not enough.. A lot of thing has to come together to make you a successful Author . A good editor, a good distributor, your looks , ethnicity ..

And its not that she is a bad author or something. She has to put a lot of work of her own to bring things home.

So, is it wrong to grab the single great opportunity(how morally, ethically and also by law wrong it is ) that life throws at you ?

Is it worth it to let go of it and remain yet another no in the ever growing population and be forgotten once dead or grab this opportunity and be a person that matter ?

About giving credit to Athena, if June is to be believed , she started with the same intention and on the change of situation it was no longer possible to come clean without bringing trouble and litigation to her own life ?

why it is wrong to be a little selfish in that case ?

I just want to give enough room for her justifications while reading the book .. makes it more enjoyable (Not a reflection on my own moral standings ;P)

I am now at chapter 10 .. need to stop other books I am juggling with (Purchased some beautiful paperbacks and one hard bound from our local indie book store and cant resist to read into few pages of each book :)) . but will try focus on this one from tonight or will provide some June like long justifications for why I couldn't :P

[Savita]

Tarinee wrote: "Savita Mam I get your point and completely agree with them from my own stand on ethics/morality of things.

I have a feeling which is substantiated, as I read more into the book, that the author in..."

Tarinee , your comment is interesting 🤔 . I'm just rushing through a few chores right now , but will be able to comment back soon .
And , although I am probably a good deal older than you , still then , this is just a friendly , readers' platform, so even if you call me just Savita, it's quite okay 😊 .

[Ruchi]

Hey guys! I have already read this book last year! It is an extremely gripping story that keeps you on the edge.

What I enjoyed the most was how unlikeable both the characters were. There was no concept of good vs. evil. There was evil in both the characters which gets introduced to us as and when we read the story.

I also love how the author added the current situation of how social media works and controls the way we form opinions about the most trivial matters as well.

I hope you guys are enjoying the book just the way I did. You can also find my review of the book on my page!

[Ruchi]

Ahtims wrote: "As we discuss this book here, I see that Jay Shetty of "Think like a monk" is under some controversy and his books are selling like hot cakes ;)"

I agree with your point of view, but I feel Athena was aware of the jealousy that June possessed for her and maybe she liked it a bit? She enjoyed being the star that she was. I don't believe she was so naive that she didn't notice that June was envious of her. But yes, she definitely would not have believed that June would do so much harm.

Also

SPOILER ALERT....

Athena did steal from June when they were in college. So Athena was not entirely innocent.


This is what I feel... would love to know about everyone else's opinions as well.

[Savita]

Tarinee wrote: "Savita Mam I get your point and completely agree with them from my own stand on ethics/morality of things.

I have a feeling which is substantiated, as I read more into the book, that the author in..."

Tarinee , I read your message in detail. Well , I think it all depends on whether--
1) You understand and believe in the obvious Divine laws which govern our spiritual journey through this world . The majority of humanity does believe that As you sow , so you shall reap. / ( in Hindi ) jaisi karni , vaesi bharni . / ( Hindi ) Bhagwan kei ghar mei daer hei , andheir nahi . / The wheels of Divine Justice roll slowly but surely . So , based on our karmas ( deeds ) we either achieve (a) salvation ( freedom from the repeated , painful
cycles of rebirth and death at the end of this earthly journey, and are allowed to enter God's eternal , blissful Home in Heaven or ( b) Come back to earth to pay for our previous misdeeds ( and that's no fun , I think .... all the physical and mental suffering that afflict human beings... some man made , some supernaturally ordained .... shudder 🤯 , Salvation does seem the better option to try for 🤔 ) or (c) To have to go to Hell , which also is a dismal option ... the worst one 😒 !

2 ) Or , you ignore / don't believe in God at all . In that case , why bother with decorum and ethics ? Just keep grabbing the best for your self , no matter who you crush on the way !! 🤔 Well , proceeding along such a happy 🤩 pathway , you will inevitably meet life waiting to teach you some great lessons the hard way 😉!

Hope you believe in option 1 , Tarinee . Most of humanity is God fearing, and though we do keep making mistakes, we do have a conscience and show true repentance sooner or later .

[Savita]

Ruchi wrote: "Hey guys! I have already read this book last year! It is an extremely gripping story that keeps you on the edge.

What I enjoyed the most was how unlikeable both the characters were. There was no ..."

I read your review , Ruchi . Nice review!

[Savita]

Ruchi wrote: "Ahtims wrote: "As we discuss this book here, I see that Jay Shetty of "Think like a monk" is under some controversy and his books are selling like hot cakes ;)"

I agree with your point of view, bu..."

Oh I see !! So ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Athena wasn't so innocent herself !!! But , one misdeed doesn't justify another misdeed actually 🤔. (hide spoiler)] ☆☆ So , new revelations are made as the story unfolds . It was this way in Daphne du Maurier 's Rebecca too .

[Savita]

And , Tarinee , it really doesn't matter if you remained a little nobody on earth . Heaven would be very much noticing all your sincere efforts ( doesn't matter if you didn't win any glamorous prizes on earthly platforms ) , your everyday small acts of compassion, the courage and fortitude with which you faced the inevitable trials of life . And if Heaven is noticing, what more can you want ? Because, it's Heaven that decides who ultimately gets the visa for Heaven.... the land of eternal love , happiness and protection. The land no one would ever want to leave. God's Home.

[Savita]

I hope I didn't sound too preachy , Tarinee ? I was just trying to answer your points 🤔

[Tarinee]

no no not at all ... your line of thoughts are in line with my personal beliefs ... I enjoyed reading through it all :)

As a reader, I enjoy thinking on alternate theories and beliefs and thought pattern of characters as it brings diversity to understand the story plot from a alternate perspective

I was not active for a couple of years in Goodreads but old friends know I am all ear for every diverse logic/beliefs/thoughts/Ideas :)

BTW am on Chapter 13 .. things are getting more interesting now :)

[Savita]

Tarinee wrote: "no no not at all ... your line of thoughts are in line with my personal beliefs ... I enjoyed reading through it all :)

As a reader, I enjoy thinking on alternate theories and beliefs and thought..."

👍
I am still on chapter 5 , but hope to progress tonight because I have good reading time .
Looking forward to more comments from you and the other participating readers 😊

[Anulekha]

I have started reading the book, and I am in Chapter 2.
Initially, I sympathised with June because we all have a friend who will be a genius, and sometimes, our struggles seem to put us in a jealous zone. School/college is a time when people make the best of friends and as we grow older, we start trusting less and less, and this can be a reason (other than just being an introvert) why Athena had a very small circle of friends and kept June close even though their friendship was only skin deep.
Understandably, June did not feel much for losing her 'friend', as she also hung out with her, maybe to learn something from her, and not because of some deep-rooted loyalty.
But all said and done, taking someone else's work and putting your name is not justifiable. Many famous authors' incomplete works have been published posthumously by their relatives or someone else. (view spoiler)[ Given the fact that she was her only friend in the industry, it would not have been difficult. She could have talked to Athena's mother about finishing and publishing the book together. But she just wanted to one-up Athena, even in her death, is what I believe (hide spoiler)].
But I understand from the comments that there is more to the story than meets the eye.

[Savita]

Anulekha wrote: "I have started reading the book, and I am in Chapter 2.
Initially, I sympathised with June because we all have a friend who will be a genius, and sometimes, our struggles seem to put us in a jealou..."

Nicely put , Anulekha ! Neither you or the other participating members have been too strongly condemning about June's misdeed , although all are agreed that it is not justifiable . There is honesty , maturity and flexibility of judgement in this view stand . I agree with your comment 👍.

[Savita]

I have reached chapter 6 . Will comment tomorrow.

[Tarinee]

Finished the book...
It was going great until 3/4th of the book and went down hill from there .
But over all enjoyed the book a lot .. though would have loved a better ending ..the last part felt hurried and messy.

[Ahtims]

Most readers ( including myself) have this complaint about this book. The last few chapters look as if the author has given up.

[Tarinee]

Ahtims wrote: "Most readers ( including myself) have this complaint about this book. The last few chapters look as if the author has given up."

(view spoiler)[Which is ironic that even Juniper did struggle to finish the book towards the last one third.
Cant decide whether RFK is a Genius or too bored to finish this properly (hide spoiler)]

[Ahtims]

I guessed the latter..
perhaps my envious streak as I am not a writer :P

[Siddharth]

Have started the book today, will be joining in. I've finished chapter 1 but I'm a slow reader too so will probably take a couple of weeks, but interesting discussion so far!

[~~Poulomi Sylphrena Tonk$~~]

Ahtims wrote: "Most readers ( including myself) have this complaint about this book. The last few chapters look as if the author has given up."

Add me to that group of readers too. I kept waiting for a good end to this drama, but the ending kind of bummed me. It felt like Kuang is planning to continue writing this as a series or something, but that apparently isn't the case.

[Savita]

Siddharth wrote: "Have started the book today, will be joining in. I've finished chapter 1 but I'm a slow reader too so will probably take a couple of weeks, but interesting discussion so far!"

Welcome , Siddharth ! Great , you're a slow reader too !

[Savita]

I have reached chapter 9 . In chapter 6 , June sees ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ an apparition of Athena ! Sooo , June's conscience is pricking her at last ! Well , let's see how strong her conscience conscience proves to be . Hmm .... (hide spoiler)] ☆☆
Will make comment about chapter 8 tomorrow .

[Anulekha]

In chapter 9 (view spoiler)[ June starts feeling guilty about writing about a community of people she knows nothing about, and facing backlash from a few triggers her into thinking whether she did the right thing. But, if she had researched and written the book, people would still not accept her as she was not "one of them". Though Athena was Chinese American, it was told in the first few chapters that she hardly understood Mandarin, but the same set of people would have welcomed her.
Also, I feel June's criticism of Athena's research for writing is not justifiable. Every writer has to do a background search for the story they want to write. There are many untold stories, and if she was willing to take the pain and interview people for their stories, how would that be stealing their stories? Unless she did not acknowledge them (hide spoiler)].
There are many things to ponder here. But I agree things are a bit grey on all the sides.

[Anulekha]

I got a few answers to the questions swimming in my head in the following chapters.
R.F. Kuang, being so young, has phenomenally brought out human characteristics.

[Savita]

Anulekha wrote: "I got a few answers to the questions swimming in my head in the following chapters.
R.F. Kuang, being so young, has phenomenally brought out human characteristics."

Can't wait to push forward my reading. Will be reading chapter 9 today , after I have commented on chapter 8 ( where I completely disagree with the remark likening some authors to vultures and vampires! ) !

[Anulekha]

Finished it.
I agree with everyone. The last few chapters were quite disappointing. I also felt the main character was a bit too whiny.

[Savita]

Anulekha wrote: "Finished it.
I agree with everyone. The last few chapters were quite disappointing. I also felt the main character was a bit too whiny."

Hmm ...

[Savita]

Chapter 8 : I completely disagree that an author who describes the miseries of war up close should be likened to a vampire or a vulture . History books just coldly and detachedly mention facts and figures . The sheer horror and misery of what goes on at the battle fields remains hidden . But it must be revealed to the future generations if they are to realize that , though sometimes war is necessary to protect your country from unstable / evil foreign minds , where , however , the warring countries are able to reach a sane and sensible agreement, through peaceful dialogues , war must , at all costs , be avoided . War is not really all about heroism , as the younger generations think . It's just brings about a brutal end to young lives, quite often unnecessarily . Young men who may not have realized fully what this precious gift of life is all about . It is through the work of gifted authors and talented film makers that humanity at large gets to really understand and be warned about the horror that is war . And , this knowledge does act as a deterrent in some , if not all , instances .

[Anulekha]

Savita wrote: "Chapter 8 : I completely disagree that an author who describes the miseries of war up close should be likened to a vampire or a vulture . History books just coldly and detachedly mention facts and ..."

That is true. Many such topics were touched on in this book where readers are bound to feel strongly.

[Savita]

Anulekha wrote: "Savita wrote: "Chapter 8 : I completely disagree that an author who describes the miseries of war up close should be likened to a vampire or a vulture . History books just coldly and detachedly men..."

I have not read many war novels myself .... I am a little afraid of the misery that is described ! But , the few I've read have made a great impact on my mind . The Nightingale , The Diary of a Young Girl , by Anne Frank , other stories of the Nazi concentration camps , The Razor's Edge by Somerset Maugham ( the whole book is set on how the war scenes seen by the protagonist change his life and mindset . The only war movie I've seen is The Odessa File . Some scenes from the movie have got permanently imprinted in my mind . Some human beings are just sadists !

[Anulekha]

Savita wrote: "Anulekha wrote: "Savita wrote: "Chapter 8 : I completely disagree that an author who describes the miseries of war up close should be likened to a vampire or a vulture . History books just coldly a..."

Even I find novels and books based on wars painful. I believe I have read only a handful of such books. One of them that I liked was The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society, mainly because it showed people bonding over books during the misery of the ongoing war.

[Tarinee]

Anulekha wrote: "Savita wrote: "Anulekha wrote: "Savita wrote: "Chapter 8 : I completely disagree that an author who describes the miseries of war up close should be likened to a vampire or a vulture . History book..."
that's a very beautiful book .. suggested by one of our mod here :)

[Savita]

Anulekha wrote: "Savita wrote: "Anulekha wrote: "Savita wrote: "Chapter 8 : I completely disagree that an author who describes the miseries of war up close should be likened to a vampire or a vulture . History book..."

Thanks for the reference , Anulekha !

[Siddharth]

Just finished chapter 13 today. I have been having conflicting emotions so far about the book. On one hand, several interesting and topical points are being raised that we can have a conversation about (as evidenced by this thread right here!). On the other hand, there are hardly any likeable characters in this book, quite possibly because June is very cynical and bitter herself that neither she nor anyone that we view through her lens is likeable. I don't care about any of the characters I have encountered so far, save for Patricia Liu (who has been a very minor presence so far). In a way, I feel perhaps that was the intention - it's like Kuang wants us to be as outraged by it all as all the internet trolls in her book while having superficial knowledge of most of the characters. Definitely doesn't make it pleasant to read though!

What I do like is how the story keeps on progressing - whatever I see coming happens almost immediately, within the next chapter. With about 40% of the book remaining, I am not really sure where this is going. (view spoiler)[ Will there be a trial? Will she be sued (with actual evidence)? Will keep on reading! (hide spoiler)]

[Savita]

Siddharth wrote: "Just finished chapter 13 today. I have been having conflicting emotions so far about the book. On one hand, several interesting and topical points are being raised that we can have a conversation a..."

I haven't read your spoiler remark yet , Siddharth, because I have just started chapter 11 . I agree with the non spoiler part . At present I am fully enjoying the book and learning a bit more about human nature 🤔 .

[Siddharth]

Fair enough! Just finished chapter 19. This book is certainly gripping enough to make me keep turning the pages, even if it doesn't allow me for a second to feel comfortable (which is not necessarily a bad thing). I have actually enjoyed chapters 14 - 18 more than I enjoyed the first half. I finally feel some connect with June, even if I don't like her still. There are more moments of vulnerability now that feel more real and are landing for me - in the first half, most of them seemed cartoonish, intended to heighten the pettiness of June further and make us dislike her. Now I'm getting a glimpse of what June could be, the little girl that lives deep inside. Based on the earlier comments, I suppose it goes downhill from here, but maybe it will be different for me?

[Ahtims]

I personally wanted a different ending. But then....

[Siddharth]

Finished it. I now see what you guys mean haha!

[Siddharth]

After reading the comments, I think I was mentally prepped for an underwhelming climax so wasn't as disappointed (I didn't enjoy the book as much even until then, so that's probably a factor as well), but I agree. It was hurried and like a previous comment pointed it out, looked like she had written herself into a corner and didn't quite know how to finish it. However, while I didn't like the overall trajectory that the book took, I feel the last few pages themselves weren't so bad given that this was the chosen climax.

[Savita]

Actually , if I continue to enjoy the book as much as I am at present ( I am on chapter 11 ) , and the end is as Ahtims has previously hinted ( ☆☆Beware Spoilers: (view spoiler)[ June becomes only the voice of others (hide spoiler)] ) , then I will give the book at least 4 stars .

Will comment on chapter 11 tomorrow .

[Anulekha]

Reading this, I realised publishing is also a cutthroat industry, but I did not realise (view spoiler)[ Asian writers in the US have it so bad. Is it true what Candice says about one Asian author being preferred and others neglected to the point of not getting published? As a reader, most people are looking for different authors. People may like a particular author, but it does not mean they are unaccepting of others. The book seems to depict the extremes (hide spoiler)].

[Savita]

~~Poulomi Sylphrena Tonk$~~ wrote: "@Ahtims and @Savita : How are you liking the twitter references and the social media response towards June?

It's so in sync with the kind of cancel culture brewing these days on social media. It c..."

I have reached chapter 12 . In chapter 11 I was very shocked by ☆☆ Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ the severe and vicious nature of the assault on June through the social media . It can drive a mentally weak person to suicide even ! But, as far as June is concerned, I don't know how much sympathy I have for her . She feels that by getting Athena 's book published, she has done Athena a favour !! Under her own ( June's ) name !! Good Lord ! How people can even deceive themselves! How easy it is to to live in blissful spiritual ignorance 🤔 .
And , I must say June is pretty hardy . So far , she seems to be surviving the internet assault okay . I would have collapsed quite soon . (hide spoiler)] ☆☆

[Ahtims]

Yes, June is quite strong mentally. Most people would have been in a very bad condition. She withstands almost everything said and written about her. Perhaps her ability of self delusion and being in an imaginary cocoon is quite high.