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The Dark Queens
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The Dark Queens by Shelly Puhak - History Theme BOM Mar 2024 (starts 16 Mar)
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Date Chapters Pages MPDQs
16 March 1-9 1-82 Melindam
17 March 10-19 83-159 Audrey Jane
**BREAK DAY**
19 March 20-27 160-242 Abigail
20 March 28-end 242-311 (end)MelissaKaren
Breakdown is based on this hardcover version
Pay attention to the chapter numbers rather than page numbers if using a different version. There is 80 pages of references and other material at the end of the book and so this hasn't been included in the DQ breakdown.
Guidance for DQ setters
Aim for a reasonable number of questions: 4 - 5 is typical. Please don't post too many - any more than 7 gets unwieldy!
Use consecutive numbering of the DQs for your days. So, for example, if Day One is posted as questions 1-4, Day Two should start at number 5 etc.
Don't worry too much about your questions: you aren't being tested on how clever your questions are!
Hints and tips:
- Is there a quote that jumped out at you? Use that in a question.
- What about the characters - do they generate strong feelings? No feelings? - either way, we can explore that!
- What about that plot twist?!
- Explore the writing style: is there an unusual structure being used? what's the tone of voice like? or the point of view?
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It has been on my TBR for some time, in for DQs. :)
I'm also in ! When my medieval history professor started to tell this story I thought at first their quarrel somewhat petty, borderline hilarious and then suddenly it took epic proportions...
Oooh looking forward to this! Kick-ass women of history? I'm in for DQs, flexible with any day
Mod
I can only get the audio so happy to do DQs but would need to be the first day please
I’ll volunteer for DQs! Just got this one from the library :)
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(I ended up getting a hardcover from the library so will be a DQ back-up if needed)
-Karen
I'm happy with my day, already started reading, thank you. :)
Works for me as well :)
Sorry, I will be a bit early with my DQs, though technically it's already 16 March in Australia. 🤭
DQ1 - Chapters 1-9
1. Just a general question for warming up: do you like reading non-fiction-history books in general? If yes, any specific eras you are more interested in than others?
2. Are you familiar with the time/historical setting of the book?
3. Which historic fact did you find the most interesting or the weirdest so far?
4. Do you think the author manages to bring these obscure characters into life? What about her writing style?
5. Concerning the poisoned dagger episode, which was one of the high points of this part (at least for me): did you think they would manage to pull it off?
Mod
Haha
Only just
DQ1 - Chapters 1-91. Just a general question for warming up: do you like reading non-fiction-history books in general? If yes, any specific eras you are more interested in than other?
I do like reading non-fiction history books. I have started to widen my circle of interest in the last years or so, but I have mostly been interested in books about the Middle Ages/Renaissance + the period before and during ww2.
2. Are you familiar with the time/historical setting of the book?
I have some general and vague memories about learning this period in history classes, but at university it was mostly language history I studied and wasn't very enthusiastic about it. So, lots of things to catch up with. :)
3. Which historic fact did you find the most interesting or the weirdest so far?
I am putting here 2 quotes, though there are other things I found interesting:
"...there are few traces of the queens: the abandoned shells of their biographies have been inhabited by others. Their lived experiences have been set dressing not just for opera leads, but also for fairy-tale villains and folk-tale heroines, comic strip and anime characters, and even, most recently, for Cersei in Game of Thrones."
"One could not call a woman a witch casually or in jest. It was a serious charge, one that was considerably worse than questioning her virtue. The fine for slandering a woman as a witch was 187 ½ solidi,7 while it was only 45 solidi if one falsely called her a whore.8 The law even considered it worse to accuse a woman of witchcraft than to assault her—the wergeld was three times higher than for forcible rape."
4. Do you think the author manages to bring these obscure characters into life? What about her writing style?
This is the first time I came across the word I found in some reviews for this book "narrative non-fiction". I have not been familiar with it previously, but I have to say author Shelley Puhak does a very good job of using this style as this makes her book very readable and all the events somehow easier to follow. Nevertheless it makes the material presented this way more suspect to conjecture. Still, the footnotes kind of balance it more or less. I am enjoying reading it very much.
5. Concerning the poisoned dagger episode, which was one of the high points of this part (at least for me): did you think they would manage to pull it off?
I have to say I found it quite exciting and I was not sure what the outcome would be. :)
DQ1 - Chapters 1-91. Just a general question for warming up: do you like reading non-fiction-history books in general? If yes, any specific eras you are more interested in than other?
Yes, I love it. History was my favourite subject at school and studied Cultural History at university afterwards. Always happy to give a free history lesson when asked :)
Before I was mainly interested in the Victorian era/19th century and WWII. However the last couple of years I tend to gravitate towards 'micro history' books or 'history from below' in the sense that I rather want to learn about a specific event, subject or about common people's lives etc.
I enjoy reading primary sources as well (chronicles, memoires, correspondence, etc).
2. Are you familiar with the time/historical setting of the book?
Yes, learnt about it at school & university. It's also part of Belgium/France's national history so that might explain why.
3. Which historic fact did you find the most interesting or the weirdest so far?
The Salic law and the system of the wergeld is quite interesting indeed. Anything could be settled with wergeld. However as I'm familiar with the events, the most interesting/weirdest parts are yet to come.
4. Do you think the author manages to bring these obscure characters into life? What about her writing style?
I agree with what Melinda wrote. I wasn't familiar with the "narrative non-fiction" style either until I read The Burgundians: A Vanished Empire. I was kind of on the fence about it at the beginning as it seems that there's a lot of speculation involved however I'm all for making history more accessible to a wider audience. So yes, copy/paste what Melinda said.
5. Concerning the poisoned dagger episode, which was one of the high points of this part (at least for me): did you think they would manage to pull it off?
I'm trying to recall what my inital reaction was when first hearing about this particular incident but all I can remember is that I was absolutely revited from beginning to the end. But I'm not surprised given all the events leading up to this. It's just one scheme/double crossing after the other. However I'm always amazed at how blindly loyal some people are, even at the costs of their own lives. Or Fredegonde has some amazing persuasion skills.
Quick heads up, my sister is visiting for the weekend so might not have time during the day but will most likely post my discussion questions tomorrow evening (CET). In any case, looking forward to read further ! I'm enjoying Shelley Puhak's way of bringing history to life.
Mod
1. Just a general question for warming up: do you like reading non-fiction-history books in general? If yes, any specific eras you are more interested in than other?
I do, but probably don't do it as often as I should. I prefer books that aren't strictly facts so this style, and also memoirs like Echoes of the Mekong which I am reading at the moment help to bring history to life.
2. Are you familiar with the time/historical setting of the book?
Not really. This is new teritory! I was also talking to my FIL last night and he said he didn't know who Brunnhilde was. I guess this period/place isn't taught much in Australia ;)
3. Which historic fact did you find the most interesting or the weirdest so far?
The fines for calling a woman a witch being high than for raping her... That was one of many that really stuck out to me!
4. Do you think the author manages to bring these obscure characters into life? What about her writing style?
I actually thought this would be a bit more on the narrative side. Although I can see why it is called that as she is telling a story, it is still being told through a historian's lens. I think my favourite are Ian Mortimer's time travellers guides (e.g.
) where you get a "first person POV". But then if I look at books that fictionalise history while trying to write as a real person from history (e.g. A Room Made of Leaves) I also struggle with that because how do we know what was going trhough that person's mind? haha. So in conclusion, I can not be pleased :DI am enjoying it so far, but more so since I got the hardcover from the library. I needed those pages with the names and Kingdoms to refer to and the maps. Also having the pictures in the book helps to imagine the time. I was finding it a bit hard to follow on audio.
5. Concerning the poisoned dagger episode, which was one of the high points of this part (at least for me): did you think they would manage to pull it off?
Yes how weirdly hillarious. And it seems that it would have been unlikely to have happened (when she describes the knowledge and use of poisons that would be described) and yet is the most accepted view of the facts
Karen ⊰✿ wrote: "DQ1 - Chapters 1-91. Just a general question for warming up: do you like reading non-fiction-history books in general? If yes, any specific eras you are more interested in than other?
I do, but ..."
I have The Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England: A Handbook for Visitors to the Fourteenth Century on my TBR - looking forward to read it :) !
A lot of interesting, unbelievable, and horrifying events happened during these chapters. I always try to keep in mind that everyone is a product of their time however I’m still fascinated.DQ2 - Chapters 10-19
6. Chilperic's blind devotion to Fredegonde is quite...admirable ? Isn’t it ironic that Fredegonde eliminates prince Clovis (Chilperic & Audovera's son) just in order to have to adopt Brunhilde’s son, king Childebert as the heir of Neustrie ? A miscalculation maybe ?
7. In these chapters Chilperic and Fredegonde lose multiple sons to dysentery. What were your thoughts about their ways of coping with their grief and depression ?
8. What do you think of the practice of reading the letters out loud to the entire court ? “The letter would establish the overarching topic and indicate that the messenger himself was authorized to convey the rest of the information...”
9. What do you make of the two women so far: Brunhilde and Fredegonde ? Do you have a sense of getting to know them better (even though it’s via biased accounts) ?
10. During this section, is there an event or historical character that provoked a particular emotion or opinion while reading ?
DQ2 - Chapters 10-196. Chilperic's blind devotion to Fredegonde is quite...admirable ? Isn’t it ironic that Fredegonde eliminates prince Clovis (Chilperic & Audovera's son) just in order to have to adopt Brunhilde’s son, king Childebert as the heir of Neustrie ? A miscalculation maybe ?
I thought it was a gamble to have left Chilperic without an heir (given that at that moment he had no more sons and no guarantee that Fredegonde will give birth to another son).
7. In these chapters Chilperic and Fredegonde lose multiple sons to dysentery. What were your thoughts about their ways of coping with their grief and depression ?
Chilperic's attempts were somewhat comical (new alphabet, failed poetry). However it struck me that there's a difference in grieving for Fredegonde’s children versus Audovera's (Prince Clovis and Basina). I can't recall him having any emotional response for Clovis & Basina.
8. What do you think of the practice of reading the letters out loud to the entire court ? “The letter would establish the overarching topic and indicate that the messenger himself was authorized to convey the rest of the information...”
I wonder what the purpose of that is except for more transparency and appease the nobles maybe. I also wonder in how far it's better to not know (and prevent possible speculations about the topic).
9. What do you make of the two women so far: Brunhilde and Fredegonde ? Do you have a sense of getting to know them better (even though it’s via biased accounts) ?
I sense that the thoughts of Fredegonde behind removing her potential rivals from the picture involves a lot of projecting herself on to other people (e.g what she ordered to be done to Clovis’ potential girlfriend and her mother, suspecting people of using poison etc). It's says a lot about a person. Regarding Brunhilde, I feel that she's a softer version of Fredegonde however the fact that she can survive in this political game/bloodfeud speaks for itself, everybody else dies in the crossfire.
10. During this section, is there an event or historical character that provoked a particular emotion or opinion while reading ?
My biggest frustration is how conveniently “witchcraft” is blamed and used as an excuse to torture & kill people. And how often it strikes women. Every time in history when I read about bad crops, epidemics or a series of unfortunate events, my mind goes “oh boy, here we go again, prepare the stakes and bonfire”. It’s always either that or the “Jews poisoned the wells again”.
Also imagine being a poor peasant living on the borders of two warring kingdoms ! The amount of pillaging. I would move asap.
DQ1 - Chapters 1-91. Just a general question for warming up: do you like reading non-fiction-history books in general? If yes, any specific eras you are more interested in than other?
Fiction is my preference but I do love some non fiction. Survival is my fave but history wise the Tudor period.
2. Are you familiar with the time/historical setting of the book?
Honestly not really so I’m excited to learn some more.
3. Which historic fact did you find the most interesting or the weirdest so far?
That you got a fine for calling a woman a wh*re. Gosh if that applied now a lot of men would be up to their eyes in debt 🤣
4. Do you think the author manages to bring these obscure characters into life? What about her writing style?
I do! I loved it straight away, it’s refreshing when it just clicks.
5. Concerning the poisoned dagger episode, which was one of the high points of this part (at least for me): did you think they would manage to pull it off?
I didn’t think they would but I was rooting for them tbh. It was a high point for me too, I think this part highlighted how interesting the rest of the read would be
Hey Karen! Would you be able to take over my DQ day? I wasn’t able to read as much as I thought over the weekend and I don’t want to chance I won’t have it done in time.
Melissa, Karen,just give me a shout if you need help, as I have already finished the book. :)
Mod
I finished today so happy to step in for day 4
DQ2 - Chapters 10-196. Chilperic's blind devotion to Fredegonde is quite...admirable ? Isn’t it ironic that Fredegonde eliminates prince Clovis (Chilperic & Audovera's son) just in order to have to adopt Brunhilde’s son, king Childebert as the heir of Neustrie ? A miscalculation maybe ?
With her bearing so many sons, she thought she had everything under her control which seems blindly optimistic or just blind considering the high rate of child death at the time. But her ruthlessness in doing away with her husband's other children is quite staggering.
7. In these chapters Chilperic and Fredegonde lose multiple sons to dysentery. What were your thoughts about their ways of coping with their grief and depression ?
They were in a position of power to do almost anything they wanted and they did. But also, the beliefs of their time obviously played a big part in what they did and how they did it.
8. What do you think of the practice of reading the letters out loud to the entire court ? “The letter would establish the overarching topic and indicate that the messenger himself was authorized to convey the rest of the information...”
I have to admit that this particular event passed me by for some reason.
I guess it may have been to ensure that the content of the letter could not be manipulated by anyone? With all the ongoing intrigue, it may have established some kind of trust?
9. What do you make of the two women so far: Brunhilde and Fredegonde ? Do you have a sense of getting to know them better (even though it’s via biased accounts) ?
At this point, while Brunhilde does not lack cunning, determination and ambition, Fredegonde seems to be much more ruthless: to all intents and purposes, she IS a multiple murderer and murder seems to be her Plan A for everything. Brunhilde goes for the diplomatic options.
While Brunhilde would like to strengthen and extend Austrasia's power, her demands of revenge (for her sister) and her wanting to get back her sister's morgengabe is almost "reasonable" besides Fredegonde's murderous "rampage".
10. During this section, is there an event or historical character that provoked a particular emotion or opinion while reading ?
Even by the time's standard's, I was a bit nonplussed how Fredegonde got away with it all.
Mod
1. Just a general question for warming up: do you like reading non-fiction-history books in general? If yes, any specific eras you are more interested in than other?
I do, and have been through various eras. One I read recently and enjoyed was modern history of Britain 1970 - 1974, whilst another was about prehistoric burials!
2. Are you familiar with the time/historical setting of the book?
Certainly not the French location! And a bit sketchy about the British Dark Ages too, tbh!
3. Which historic fact did you find the most interesting or the weirdest so far?
Like others, I guess it was the witch-calling being the worst thing ever. And the apparent readiness for Fredegonde to be believed highly literate whilst also a slave...
4. Do you think the author manages to bring these obscure characters into life? What about her writing style?
She's doing very well! I enjoy the writing - it's the right balance of narrative and clarity on where conjecture is doing the heavy lifting
5. Concerning the poisoned dagger episode, which was one of the high points of this part (at least for me): did you think they would manage to pull it off?
It was suitably high tension! I did wonder if there would be a surprise escape, but no....
DQ2 - Chapters 10-196. Chilperic's blind devotion to Fredegonde is quite...admirable ? Isn’t it ironic that Fredegonde eliminates prince Clovis (Chilperic & Audovera's son) just in order to have to adopt Brunhilde’s son, king Childebert as the heir of Neustrie ? A miscalculation maybe ?
6. I mean I can see why they did that, jealousy from Fredegonde maybe?
7. In these chapters Chilperic and Fredegonde lose multiple sons to dysentery. What were your thoughts about their ways of coping with their grief and depression ? 7. Gosh this section was rough. Truly makes me grateful for the advanced healthcare we have today. I think they both handled it in the best way they could, people react completely differently to grief. I feel like I would’ve had similar coping mechanisms to Chilperic.
8. What do you think of the practice of reading the letters out loud to the entire court ? “The letter would establish the overarching topic and indicate that the messenger himself was authorized to convey the rest of the information...”
8. To add more transparency. I’d feel safer relying on the monarchs if I was getting inside info.
9. What do you make of the two women so far: Brunhilde and Fredegonde ? Do you have a sense of getting to know them better (even though it’s via biased accounts) ? 9. A lil bit horrified, scared of them, but admire them in a way also. Especially Fredegonde, she started life at the bottom of the barrel but managed to completely turn that around.
10. During this section, is there an event or historical character that provoked a particular emotion or opinion while reading ?
10. When C&F lost their 4th son, it hurt my heart for them.
DQ3 - Chapters 20-2711. Do you think you’ll read anything else written by Shelley Puhak? They have a book of poetry so I’ll be interested to see what that’s like. If they release a new historical nonfiction I’d be on board too.
12. What were some of the ways society tried to control women during this period? How did both women subvert these?
13. The pregnancy that disappeared from the record, this really intrigued me. What do you think happened? Like Puhak mentioned it could have been an unfortunate miscarriage, an error and that she wasn’t really ever pregnant, or a calculated ploy? (or something else?)
14. Eek Fredegund's failed attempt to kill her own daughter was incredibly shocking. It was suggested that Fredegund was jealous of Rigunth, do you think this was the reason? She’s a loose cannon imo
Karen ⊰✿ wrote: "No worries!I finished today so happy to step in for day 4"
Thank you so much Karen! And thanks Mel for offering 😊
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6. Chilperic's blind devotion to Fredegonde is quite...admirable ? Isn’t it ironic that Fredegonde eliminates prince Clovis (Chilperic & Audovera's son) just in order to have to adopt Brunhilde’s son, king Childebert as the heir of Neustrie ? A miscalculation maybe ?
Yes it made for some mind-gymnastics. The value on human life (and children) was so different back then! Plus I guess they believed in a higher order looking after them and being 'right' and so had faith in her having more sons
7. In these chapters Chilperic and Fredegonde lose multiple sons to dysentery. What were your thoughts about their ways of coping with their grief and depression ?
Such a part of 'every day' life back then I suppose! I remember being quite staggered by the stats of how many boys died young (I can't remember which part that was in) and how it was more often boys than girls
8. What do you think of the practice of reading the letters out loud to the entire court ? “The letter would establish the overarching topic and indicate that the messenger himself was authorized to convey the rest of the information...”
Build trust? Pure boredom and want to gossip with others about the letters? lol
I'm assuming it was a way of keeping alliances and your court on your side
9. What do you make of the two women so far: Brunhilde and Fredegonde ? Do you have a sense of getting to know them better (even though it’s via biased accounts) ?
Fredegonde has been portrayed much more harshly, but it is so hard to know as the accounts would have been biased at the time and then you have multiple generations of bias then in the story retellings. even the author has a bias in trying to find a more modern outlook on them as powerful women.
Fascinating nonetheless!
10. During this section, is there an event or historical character that provoked a particular emotion or opinion while reading ?
Not that I can particularly recall. Although I'm with you Audrey Jane, on the witchcraft!!
DQ3 - Chapters 20-2711. Do you think you’ll read anything else written by Shelley Puhak?
She is a new author to me and while I am not particularly interested in poetry (though I appreciate it from time to time), if she wrote other history books, I would certainly give them a try as I enjoyed this one very much.
12. What were some of the ways society tried to control women during this period? How did both women subvert these?
Because we are talking of queens here, it's easier to forget that compared to women of lower social standing, they could still be considered "privileged" and Puhak concentrates on queens/princesses/abbesses, so I cannot really draw a general conclusion from her book. We don't get told how other women were meant to get by in this age.
However, at one point it is mentioned that one of the princesses (a daughter from Chilperic's former marriage) gets raped by soldiers and thus loses her chance of getting married. So, obviously women's bodies and their virginity was a factor through which religion/a society managed by males tried to controll them back then.
It is a bit depressing to realise that not that much has changed in 1500 years.
13. The pregnancy that disappeared from the record, this really intrigued me. What do you think happened? Like Puhak mentioned it could have been an unfortunate miscarriage, an error and that she wasn’t really ever pregnant, or a calculated ploy? (or something else?)
There are too many unknown factors for me to guess. Any of these were possible.
14. Eek Fredegund's failed attempt to kill her own daughter was incredibly shocking. It was suggested that Fredegund was jealous of Rigunth, do you think this was the reason?
If it were true, I have to say that I am impressed by the fact that Rigunth not only wasn't afraid of her mother, but stood up to her before and after.
But if we can trust the picture that Puhak put together for us of Fredegonde, power and control seems to have been everything for her. It were her sons that mattered to her as it was through them that she could exercise control. Rigunth as a daughter would not give her that much possibility, but the fact the she would not let herself be controlled by Fredegonde, must have been frustrating for that type of person.
Mod
11. Do you think you’ll read anything else written by Shelley Puhak? They have a book of poetry so I’ll be interested to see what that’s like. If they release a new historical nonfiction I’d be on board too.
I haven't. I'm not really a poetry reader, but I would definitely pick up another one of her non-fiction if she decides on writing another :)
12. What were some of the ways society tried to control women during this period? How did both women subvert these?
"Let me count the ways...." ;) It is so apparent how far we have come in really a very tiny amount of time - despite there still being a WHOLE way to go.
But I think from Puhak's telling, both women were aware of their societal limitations and how to work around them. Neither seemed to have 'limits' in terms of what they wouldn't do to keep their role/power
13. The pregnancy that disappeared from the record, this really intrigued me. What do you think happened? Like Puhak mentioned it could have been an unfortunate miscarriage, an error and that she wasn’t really ever pregnant, or a calculated ploy? (or something else?)
It is a good example of how back then anything really could have happened but it just wasn't documented. I took the guess that she was just mistaken which would have been very common back then with no pregnancy tests. A late period could have given her that assumption
14. Eek Fredegund's failed attempt to kill her own daughter was incredibly shocking. It was suggested that Fredegund was jealous of Rigunth, do you think this was the reason? She’s a loose cannon imo
Total loose cannon. It was just crazy how little they valued other's lives including of their own family!!!
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15. I ended up getting the hardcover from the library and I found the photos and 'family tree' at the start really helped tpo bring this book to life for me in a way the audio didn't.
How about you? How did you read this?
16. Brunhild's execution seemed to happen rather quickly. Maybe just because the whole book she had been this dominant force and then boom. I also found the idea of getting a camel ("a public ritual for humiliating deposed tyrants") does go to the theory that she was no 'ordinary' queen. How did you find this chapter?
17. I found it amazing that there have been at least 5 discoveries of Meroringians in the 21st century and how the author describes how they were supplanted and almost written out of history by Charlemagne and his Carolingians. What were your thoughts?
18. Final thoughts on the book? Would you recommend it to others?
DQ4 - Chapters 28-end15. I ended up getting the hardcover from the library and I found the photos and 'family tree' at the start really helped to bring this book to life for me in a way the audio didn't.
How about you? How did you read this?
I started reading it on my kindle, so I had access to all these extra materials, but b/c of the whispersync deal I switched to audio after a few chapters as I found it easy to follow thanks to the engaging writing style.
16. Brunhild's execution seemed to happen rather quickly. Maybe just because the whole book she had been this dominant force and then boom. I also found the idea of getting a camel ("a public ritual for humiliating deposed tyrants") does go to the theory that she was no 'ordinary' queen. How did you find this chapter?
In a way it was sad that the story that got me so interested suddenly drew to a close. I also felt sorry for the ignoble way, how Brunhild was treated.
The way she was presented by Puhak, I found it totally unfair that the atrocities committed by Fredegonde were also got blamed on her.
17. I found it amazing that there have been at least 5 discoveries of Merorvingians in the 21st century and how the author describes how they were supplanted and almost written out of history by Charlemagne and his Carolingians. What were your thoughts?
"History is written by the victors?" A cliche, but very true nevertheless. And this way there are many things (languages, documents, artefacts, whole cultures) destroyed/wiped out without a trace that we will never know.
18. Final thoughts on the book? Would you recommend it to others?
I gave the book 4 stars. It was very interesting and engaging and I already recommended it to some friends.
DQ4 - Chapters 28-end15. I ended up getting the hardcover from the library and I found the photos and 'family tree' at the start really helped to bring this book to life for me in a way the audio didn't.
How about you? How did you read this?
15. I listened via audiobook so a bit wounded I missed out on these, the map I was able to find on google thankfully though.
16. Brunhild's execution seemed to happen rather quickly. Maybe just because the whole book she had been this dominant force and then boom. I also found the idea of getting a camel ("a public ritual for humiliating deposed tyrants") does go to the theory that she was no 'ordinary' queen. How did you find this chapter?
16. Yeah it was pretty brutal, both of the queens deaths were so different. Brunhild I felt particularly drawn too so this upset me.
17. I found it amazing that there have been at least 5 discoveries of Meroringians in the 21st century and how the author describes how they were supplanted and almost written out of history by Charlemagne and his Carolingians. What were your thoughts?
17. It makes you wonder doesn’t it what other things have been erased from history that will never be recovered!!
18. Final thoughts on the book? Would you recommend it to others?
Oh 100% I really enjoyed it, I’m so surprised there isn’t more media on these 2 ladies! I’m glad their story is being told.
DQ3 - Chapters 20-2711. Do you think you’ll read anything else written by Shelley Puhak? They have a book of poetry so I’ll be interested to see what that’s like. If they release a new historical nonfiction I’d be on board too.
If I'm interested in the next subject Puhak chooses to cover, I will definitely read another history book written by her.
12. What were some of the ways society tried to control women during this period? How did both women subvert these?
Agree with Melinda and Karen's answers. They both had agency as princess/queen/regent however at the end of the day, they were both anxious to produce sons and most of all a living heir. Not only that but you can easily be disposed of if the king no longer desires you as a woman.
Puhak also mentions that women were limited to their reproductive organs. According to Salic law, a woman of childbearing age is worth more.
13. The pregnancy that disappeared from the record, this really intrigued me. What do you think happened? Like Puhak mentioned it could have been an unfortunate miscarriage, an error and that she wasn’t really ever pregnant, or a calculated ploy? (or something else?)
I agree that it could have been any of these.
14. Eek Fredegund's failed attempt to kill her own daughter was incredibly shocking. It was suggested that Fredegund was jealous of Rigunth, do you think this was the reason? She’s a loose cannon imo
Well, no wonder that she's been dubbed in French as the "bloodthirsty queen". There's a french comic book series about Frédégonde I stumbled upon years ago: Frédégonde la sanguinaire, Tome 1. The woman is completely unhinged.
Like Melinda, I'm puzzled that she gets away with everything compared to Brunhilde who is sentenced to death for most of Fredegonde's crime. Really ironic.
DQ4 - Chapters 28-end15. I ended up getting the hardcover from the library and I found the photos and 'family tree' at the start really helped to bring this book to life for me in a way the audio didn't.
How about you? How did you read this?
I read it on my Kindle. Kind of wish I had the hardcover for the family tree. Once I'm reading I'm fine with all the names however when I picked up the book again the next day I had to place everything back in my mind (the names are all so similar). Anyway, I Googled a couple of times.
16. Brunhild's execution seemed to happen rather quickly. Maybe just because the whole book she had been this dominant force and then boom. I also found the idea of getting a camel ("a public ritual for humiliating deposed tyrants") does go to the theory that she was no 'ordinary' queen. How did you find this chapter?
I'm glad the author kept it brief as I already knew Brunhilde was going to have a gruesome death. The whole camel episode is just adding insult to injury. I can't get over the fact that she's 70 years old and that's what they decided to do. They all really needed to find a new hobby asap.
17. I found it amazing that there have been at least 5 discoveries of Merovingians in the 21st century and how the author describes how they were supplanted and almost written out of history by Charlemagne and his Carolingians. What were your thoughts?
I can vouch for that as their history was part of my highschool curriculum, I'm more familiar with the Carolingians than the Merovingians. We only learn about Clovis and his conversion to catholicism and then yadda yadda yadda Carolingian Dynasty !!! :D and especially Charlemagne is put on a pedestal. What I mean by that is that they succeeded in their intent. The Mayors of the Palace (=Carolingians) were really powerful at that time and the Merovingian king was only king in title.
18. Final thoughts on the book? Would you recommend it to others?
Yes, I thought it was quite readable and I think written in a way that everyone regardless of their knowledge can follow. 4 stars for me as well. Will recommend.
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The way she was presented by Puhak, I found it totally unfair that the atrocities committed by Fredegonde were also got blamed on her...."
Totally agree!
At this point I was back listening to the audio and I was like... whoa! what?! And went to my hardcover to re-read it. I knew her death wouldn't be pretty, but I honestly didn't know what to expect. And at her age, in that time, there could be no further insult really
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Me too. I wonder if this will be the start... it would make a fascinating TV series
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So interesting how we entrench this over the centuries! I have heard of Charlemagne but the others were all new to me. So I guess that also shows how pervasive it is in other cultures too as we didn't specifically study French history
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Me too, thanks all <3 Love being introduced to books I previously may not have picked up. Look forward to next months reads.
I added this book to my TBR when it won the GR Awards as it seemed quite intriguing, so I am very glad that this BOM gave me the push to finally read it. 😊
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6. Chilperic's blind devotion to Fredegonde is quite...admirable ? Isn’t it ironic that Fredegonde eliminates prince Clovis (Chilperic & Audovera's son) just in order to have to adopt Brunhilde’s son, king Childebert as the heir of Neustrie ? A miscalculation maybe ?
Fredegonde was clearly something else - charismatic & convincing to get so many men (Chilperic plus her assassins etc) to do what she needed. Generally, Fredegonde seems to be a bit shortsighted or one-track in her plans - it's all about relative short term securing of her position, whereas Brunhilde seems to be a bit wider, and setting her plans to work for her country as well as herself.
7. In these chapters Chilperic and Fredegonde lose multiple sons to dysentery. What were your thoughts about their ways of coping with their grief and depression ?
Wow, that's just an unbelievably hard run for them. I think their differing ways of dealing with it reflect their positions and what would seem acceptable to the outside world - Chilperic has to continue to present some sort of kingly external interests, whereas Fredegonde can go more insular with it
8. What do you think of the practice of reading the letters out loud to the entire court ? “The letter would establish the overarching topic and indicate that the messenger himself was authorized to convey the rest of the information...”
Interesting. I hadn't known the read aloud bit, but that couriers would have additional info to share isn't new
9. What do you make of the two women so far: Brunhilde and Fredegonde ? Do you have a sense of getting to know them better (even though it’s via biased accounts) ?
As above, Brunhilde seems a bit more politically savvy, building her support network on more than just personal charisma. But Fredgonde is compelling in her fierce drive to protect herself.
10. During this section, is there an event or historical character that provoked a particular emotion or opinion while reading ?
I've read on, so couldn't say, sorry.
DQ3 - Chapters 20-27
11. Do you think you’ll read anything else written by Shelley Puhak? They have a book of poetry so I’ll be interested to see what that’s like. If they release a new historical nonfiction I’d be on board too.
Probably not poetry (not my jam!), but I'd look up other prose, yes
12. What were some of the ways society tried to control women during this period? How did both women subvert these?
I enjoyed the rebellion of the nuns! The image of them sieging a convent is remarkably funny! Which isn't about the two queens, but does show that even when women had been theoretically closely controlled, cloistered in fact, they can still make their wills known and take action. Given confidence and a willingness to take risks, women can do more than is expected.
13. The pregnancy that disappeared from the record, this really intrigued me. What do you think happened? Like Puhak mentioned it could have been an unfortunate miscarriage, an error and that she wasn’t really ever pregnant, or a calculated ploy? (or something else?)
Any of the above! Pregnancy being a source of power for queens, after all...
14. Eek Fredegund's failed attempt to kill her own daughter was incredibly shocking. It was suggested that Fredegund was jealous of Rigunth, do you think this was the reason? She’s a loose cannon imo
possibly. Possibly her daughter knew too much and couldn't be let out of her control in the end? Fredegonde defo warrants being closely watched and with lots of protective plans put in place against her!
Nothing But Reading Challenges
Books mentioned in this topic
Frédégonde la sanguinaire, Tome 1 (other topics)The Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England: A Handbook for Visitors to the Fourteenth Century (other topics)
Echoes of the Mekong (other topics)
The Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England: A Handbook for Visitors to the Fourteenth Century (other topics)
A Room Made of Leaves (other topics)
More...
The remarkable, little-known story of two trailblazing women in the Early Middle Ages who wielded immense power, only to be vilified for daring to rule.
Brunhild was a Spanish princess, raised to be married off for the sake of alliance-building. Her sister-in-law Fredegund started out as a lowly palace slave. And yet—in the 6th-century Merovingian Empire, where women were excluded from noble succession and royal politics was a blood sport—these two iron-willed strategists reigned over vast realms for decades, changing the face of Europe.
The two queens commanded armies and negotiated with kings and popes. They formed coalitions and broke them, mothered children and lost them. They fought a years-long civil war—against each other. With ingenuity and skill, they battled to stay alive in the game of statecraft, and in the process laid the foundations of what would one day be Charlemagne’s empire. Yet after Brunhild and Fredegund’s deaths—one gentle, the other horrific—their stories were rewritten, their names consigned to slander and legend.
In The Dark Queens, award-winning writer Shelley Puhak sets the record straight. She resurrects two very real women in all their complexity, painting a richly detailed portrait of an unfamiliar time and striking at the roots of some of our culture’s stubbornest myths about female power. The Dark Queens offers proof that the relationships between women can transform the world.
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nominator: Audrey Jane