Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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Age differences in Heyer books.
that is interesting. I notice that my favourite pairings - sarah and Tiristan in The talisman Ring, Freddy and Kitty in Cotillion, and Hugo and Anthea in The Unknown Ajax - are all between couples who are fairly close in age.
☆ Ｃａｒｏｌ ☆ wrote: "From the Heyer List, Miranda Bell compiled a list of age differences in her historical romances (+ The Spanish Bride)I thought we might find it useful to have it linked to here. :)
http://www.he..."
What an interesting list , thank you both
Louise wrote: "that is interesting. I notice that my favourite pairings - sarah and Tiristan in The talisman Ring, Freddy and Kitty in Cotillion, and Hugo and Anthea in The Unknown Ajax - are all between couples..."Yes, true for me too.
Interesting list. The one thing that I noticed is that all my favourites involve the books where the ladies are older (above 20).
Thanks for sharing. I am currently reading Lady of Quality and although it is obvious the age difference between Annis and Oliver is big, I wasn't sure of just how much (16! it is not THAT much after all...)
It's secondary to the discussion but Fanny's comments on her marriage to a much older man (Serena's father) in Bath Tangle are revealing. Marriages between really older men (esp second or later) and very young women to try for a male heir were not uncommon.
Carolien wrote: "Interesting list. The one thing that I noticed is that all my favourites involve the books where the ladies are older (above 20)."Mine too or more mature heroines like Frederica. I am not a fan of the silly teenager and older alpha male trope.
Very informative list, thanks!Lordy, I'd not even noticed that my favourite couples have huge age differences both, not just one as I'd believed.
Jacquie wrote: "It's secondary to the discussion but Fanny's comments on her marriage to a much older man (Serena's father) in Bath Tangle are revealing. Marriages between really older men (esp second or later) an..."I may be remembering this wrong , but is not that at least partly the reason Bab's first marriage was so awful, in An Infamous Army?
Hrrmmm very interesting, I never really thought about the fact that many of her couples have quite an age difference (10+ years). But it truly highlights that age is just a number.
Yes Barbara, Bab was married to a much older man and I think he may have been dissolute and unkind.At least Fanny's elderly husband tried to be kind to her, but it was still hard for her.
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Yes Barbara, Bab was married to a much older man and I think he may have been dissolute and unkind.At least Fanny's elderly husband tried to be kind to her, but it was still hard for her."
Yes, and it must have been difficult being friends with - and a bit in awe of - your husband's daughter . I tend to disagree with Jessica above (sorry) that age is just a number , I think it tended to figure as an actual feature quite often . In life too.
There is a huge age difference with Leonie and Avon and he seems to treat her as a child. I wonder how she would handle that once marriedWhen Dominic and Mary marry the age gap is small yet their granddaughter Babs is married to an older dissolute man and it does not work. It leaves Babs very bitter and angry and this comes through in her relationship with Charles
In cleaning out our attic I came upon a 1900 (or earlier) book, Eugenics, but not what we would think eugenics is today. It is a book on sexual maturing of both sexes, problems with that, courtship, things to consider when choosing a mate, marriage and the "first time", pregnancy, etc. In the section on choosing a mate, the man is recommended to wait until 30 or older, the woman age 23-25. The best age difference is 10 years, but no man over 50 should marry a girl under 20. I wonder if this kind of recommendation was also current in England as GH wrote, or current even earlier? Is there a web site that gives statistics on the difference in ages between married couples at different times? Perhaps a sociologist would know?
My college psych professor told the class that the ideal age difference between husband and wife was about fifteen years, so that they would reach the ends of their reproductive years about the same time. That seemed a rather curious reason, but maybe he had read that book! (Of course, he also dated students, who were about fifteen years younger than he was.)
I wonder if as he aged, the age spread increased to match the age difference between him and his target dating pool.
I think, also, in the match-making arenas, parents preferred established men who had sown their wild oats and were prepared to settle down as more stable partners. Young men of quality spent a lot of time gambling, drinking, pursuing sporting events and opera dancers. It seems they were not expected to act in an adult manner unless circumstances pushed them to it earlier, such as inheriting unexpectedly or going to war.
Kim, you hit the nail on the head why an upperclass marriageable young woman of 18-19 was NOT expected to marry a young man of 21-22, but instead someone older, established, who had down their wild oats, and were ready to settle down.
MaryC wrote: "My college psych professor told the class that the ideal age difference between husband and wife was about fifteen years, so that they would reach the ends of their reproductive years about the sam..."problem is that since women generally live longer than men anyway, if your husband is significantly older than you you're likely to have a long widowhood. my late mother in law for instance was a widow for forty years, her husband being 25 years older than her.
MaryC wrote: "My college psych professor told the class that the ideal age difference between husband and wife was about fifteen years, so that they would reach the ends of their reproductive years about the sam..."Since men can carry on fathering children till their 90s and women (generally), are unable to do so past 50 - your prof's maths is erroneous!! Seems that piece of info had more to do with his dating targets!!
Judith wrote: "In cleaning out our attic I came upon a 1900 (or earlier) book, Eugenics, but not what we would think eugenics is today. It is a book on sexual maturing of both sexes, problems with that, courtship..."& welcome to our group, Judith!
MaryC wrote: "My college psych professor told the class that the ideal age difference between husband and wife was about fifteen years, so that they would reach the ends of their reproductive years about the sam..."That is in my book, too!
Judith wrote: "MaryC wrote: "My college psych professor told the class that the ideal age difference between husband and wife was about fifteen years, so that they would reach the ends of their reproductive years..."And I would bet anything in the entire world the author was male. Old pych. texts are staggeringly sexist as are old anthropology texts., And blithely unaware of being so - indeed, would indignantly claim to be scientific and 'objective' lol.
It is acceptable for professors to date students? Seriously?
Critterbee wrote: "It is acceptable for professors to date students? Seriously?"Oh, yes, when the students are adults. At my Uni, I saw some such liaisons. Personally, my objection was when that led to favouritism and grade inflation if the student was in the same class as the professor, but in the cases I saw the students were from other careers, and they never crossed paths with the professors, who were teaching in my field.
Critterbee wrote: "It is acceptable for professors to date students? Seriously?"It has gone spectacularly wrong over here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_...
Not while the students are actively taking a class, or are under the supervision of the professor, which sets up the "undue influence" scenario. There is a Ben Kingsley movie in which he quite carefully avoids dating students until after they have finished his class, then has post-grade giving party at which he then targets the students he's been lusting after all semester. Grew up in a college town, common scenario. It sadly seems like women students are regarded like gazelle on the savannah, and the professors & athletes are the lions. My husband works at a university, & the number of sexual harassment situations in which elite professors are removed for taking advantage of students is ridiculous, very intelligent men still seem to think it is their due to have access to a student "dating" pool. Privilege seems to short circuit common sense and ethics.
Kim wrote: "Not while the students are actively taking a class, or are under the supervision of the professor, which sets up the "undue influence" scenario. There is a Ben Kingsley movie in which he quite care..."i expect some of the students are quite keen to be taken advatage of.
Critterbee wrote: "It is acceptable for professors to date students? Seriously?"Once those students are out of their classes and are unlikely ever to be in one again, it should be OK. I've known a few such cases that resulted in good, lasting marriages. None of them involved my psych professor, but the one I knew best involved my own parents! :)
MaryC wrote: Once those students are out of their classes and are unlikely ever to be in one again, it should be OK. I've known ..."
That is still a bit shocking to me! One hopes for the best in others, but I worry about those professors who would take advantage of awestruck students. I remember how I felt about those revered beings when I was in Uni!!
Some professors here have quite publicly been demoted or lost their jobs. Students do not appreciate being treated like a sexual buffet, nor should they have to. It may rarely be about true romance, mostly it is more like older men with smelly feet acting like it is an entitlement of their jobs. I would not appreciate my daughters being targeted by such people, the varsity athletes their own age were bad enough. These scenarios are often so far from the light-hearted romance of Heyer it is mind boggling. I remember in Faro's Daughter when they were protecting the young woman from the predatory widower, it was written in an amusing way, but the reality behind it was serious, indeed.
Apparently we've known some very different professors!
There are great ones, good people, I grew up in a college town and knew many ethical, family men. Knew some predators, as well. There are as many types of professors as there are kinds of men. Higher education does not guarantee kindness, compassion, or respect for others. I wish it did.
Jessica wrote: "Hrrmmm very interesting, I never really thought about the fact that many of her couples have quite an age difference (10+ years). But it truly highlights that age is just a number."I would like another column on the chart estimating maturity level. The Grand Sophy is more mature at age 20 than many other women (including her aunt) will ever achieve, so she would be a match for any Heyer husband, whatever his age. I adore Mr. Beaumarie, but when Arabella says, "Is that what the book is about?" and he replies, "Yes, that is what it is about," I hear condescension and I worry. He falls in love with her for worthy reasons, but I don't see Arabella rising to his intellectual level over time.
Kim wrote: "Higher education does not guarantee kindness, compassion, or respect for others. I wish it did. "Sadly, I agree. I've known too many highly educated people who saw their educations only a routes to prestigious or well-paying jobs and felt no need to acquire any accompanying graces or values. Still, I think they're in the minority!
Lori wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Hrrmmm very interesting, I never really thought about the fact that many of her couples have quite an age difference (10+ years). But it truly highlights that age is just a number."..."mr beaumaris thinks himself superior to everyone. i daresay he would be condescending towards anyone he married. he doesn't want a wife on his intellectual level, he wants someone he can patronise.
I didn't see my education as any of these "routes to prestigious or well-paying jobs and felt no need to acquire any accompanying graces or values.". I wanted to learn because I enjoyed learning.
Mod
I think you're right - but the point about Arabella, and why he falls for her, is that she is actually his moral superior and has the capability to raise him to her level. They will probably become noted philanthropists, like Sir Waldo and Ancilla, and with any luck he will become less thoughtless and condescending.
Actually, we know nothing about Arabella's intellectual capabilities, because she's only had a 'girl's education': it's explicitly stated that with a limited income, it's the boys' education her parents have been concentrating on, and that her business is to get such a husband as will help her sisters up the matrimonial ladder as well. An interest in the classics would have got her labelled a bluestocking and fatally ruined her chances. As she gets older - she's only a school-leaver now, remember - her intelligence may well have a chance to shine.
Jenny wrote: "Louise wrote: "mr beaumaris thinks himself superior to everyone. i daresay he would be condescending towards anyone he married. he doesn't want a wife on his intellectual level, he wants someone he..."I always thought it a pity arabella couldn't have married waldo, they have similar interests and would have enjoyed being philanthropists together.
Arabella's father would probably have given her so,e classical education if she had shown an interest in it, I suspect she probably isn't that interested though.
I think we have evidence that the girls didn't want to read such books. They practically pounced on Sophia when she mentioned The History of Persia. "While her contemporaries gazed at Sophia in stupefaction, the Vicar, becoming quite animated, expounded at length on the subject. . . ." "[A]fter enduring an evening under the scourge of having passages of Sir John Malcolm's memorable work read loud to them, he and his two elder sisters had escaped to the sanctuary of the girls' bedchamber."
Lori wrote: "I think we have evidence that the girls didn't want to read such books. They practically pounced on Sophia when she mentioned The History of Persia. "While her contemporaries gazed at Sophia in stu..."I expect many men also didn't want to read such books - but they weren't allowed so much to admit it.
Howard wrote: "Lori wrote: "I think we have evidence that the girls didn't want to read such books. They practically pounced on Sophia when she mentioned The History of Persia. "While her contemporaries gazed at ..."I expect there were some men who would happily admit to haaving no interest in such books - Freddy in Cotillion for example, I can just imagine what he would say if asked to read the History of Persia!
Louise wrote: "Howard wrote: "Lori wrote: "I think we have evidence that the girls didn't want to read such books. They practically pounced on Sophia when she mentioned The History of Persia. "While her contempor..."Exactly! And I do love Freddy for his kind heart.
But when it comes to the brazenly unbookish, The Reverend Henry Tallant ain't among 'em. He seems much more like Jane Austen's clergyman father, a gentleman scholar whose only extravagance was his library.
I loved the Reverend - he reminds me of my late father - very moral, very principled and incredibly tolerant and loving.
Howard wrote: "I didn't see my education as any of these "routes to prestigious or well-paying jobs and felt no need to acquire any accompanying graces or values.". I wanted to learn because I enjoyed learning."Howard, you must have been the kind of student every teacher loves to have!
Howard wrote: "I didn't see my education as any of these "routes to prestigious or well-paying jobs and felt no need to acquire any accompanying graces or values.". I wanted to learn because I enjoyed learning."Me too. And I'm still doing courses, and soon another degree, for the same reason.
Susan wrote: "I loved the Reverend - he reminds me of my late father - very moral, very principled and incredibly tolerant and loving."How good to know that there are real people like that, and how lovely for you to have had one as your father.
HJ wrote: "Susan wrote: "I loved the Reverend - he reminds me of my late father - very moral, very principled and incredibly tolerant and loving."How good to know that there are real people like that, and h..."
Thank you HJ.
I thought we might find it useful to have it linked to here. :)
http://www.heyerlist.org/ages.html